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Mod, you wrote to Menachem Shmiel: “attacks, hate, different versions of the same PR point”.
I am not Chabbad, and I think that’s clear. And I even share plenty of the gripes written here. However, it does seem that your personal slant is coming through on the inserted comments, and you might want to be mindful of that.
Yes, calling someone’s Rebbe a lightweight is a heavy attack. Perhaps you don’t understand the relationship of a Chossid to their Rebbe, but it should be obvious that it is strong. Listing embarrassing downsides of someone’s community is an attack, whether it’s right or wrong, and regardless of the justification of doing so. If it’s OK to attack, go ahead. But at least acknowledge that you attacked.
You might say that Chabbad attacks others and so now others are counter-attacking. Fine, but it is still an attack nonetheless.
not sure if all of this was directed to me but…
I don’t really care what comes through, my “slants” are per the presentation not the content, and that comment to him was part of an older and larger conversation. Next, I thought I deleted the comment about the lightweight, I guess there was more than one.
lastly, re: “you might say…” I wasn’t saying that at all. I barely pay attention to the content. I was referencing an old conversation about using the word attack instead of addressing the point. Period. I’m sorry it spoke to you differently.
Halevi, being involved in academic studies do not prepare one for gemara. That’s falling into the trap that there’s a connection between the two; it’s just not true. There are 48 things which the mishnah says are necessary to understand Torah, and math and science, or just being intelligent, are not on the list. Torah study if done correctly is immersive, the production of svara, making proper diyukim, removing all preconceived notions… These are things that women are generally incapable of due to their nature, not just because women were not into academics until recently. Rav Moshe feinstein was fully aware of the state of the world when he said that women should not learn gemara; it’s a mistaken premise.
I also think the rambam is נחית to the yerushalmi, based on what i wrote above, that he says that no women have schar for torah shebaal peh, even though only “rov” women don’t have the capabilities to learn, and i think beruriah was the machriah.
Also, the issue here is with gemara and its meforshim, tur/beis yosef etc…i agree that a yechidah who is drawn to learning should indeed occupy herself with it, as the Gaon instructed women to learn sifrei musar – there’s likewise nothing wrong with learning drush, pulpulim on chumash, etc… The litvishe poskim hold that anything used to understand torah she’biksav is not a problem.
P.S. there are 45 deleted posts in this thread. It’s a bipartisan issue.
@haleivi
“Yes, calling someone’s Rebbe a lightweight is a heavy attack. Perhaps you don’t understand the relationship of a Chossid to their Rebbe, but it should be obvious that it is strong.”
—–
No one would call someone else’s rebbi a lightweight just like that .
I can come up with a long list of people who COULD be called lightweight . But wonder above wonder , no one calls them that on this thread.
Why not ?
Kavod habriyot . Lashon hara. Motsi Shem ra . Mevayesh pnei havero . Etc.
All are valid reasons and am yisrael are kdoshim b’h.This case , however is fundamentally different .
There is a concerted effort here to force onto Am Yisrael a Mashiach . With all type of outlandish, bizarre and misplaced claims .
This is a multi-decade effort which takes many forms and shapes .
Amongst the claims made – documented and verifiable – , some of them I personally heard from respectable mainstream card carrying members of habad.“Our Rebbi is greater than Moshe Rabenu. ”
“All other Rebbes and rabanim are Klipat hashum when compared to him . ”
“Someone who does not accept our rebbi , his neshama is in the clutches of the sitra acher. ”The people who undertook this concerted effort to push such delusional statements on to the public , are the ones who opened themselves up to the public square , and should be prepared to undergo a fact based ,open and honest evaluation by the very public on whom these assessments are being pushed .
This analysis of a public persona did not happen in a vacuum .It is merely a reaction .
A reaction to the previous action of crowning a M onto the WHOLE BODY of Yehudim .
Of a previous action of crowning a Nasi HADOR . On top of an entire generation .
Of a proclamation that after 2000 years hiatus of no nevua , since Hagai Zharya and Malahi , prophesy has returned .This is major stuff .
This a once in 2000 years occurrence .
Sorry , , no, a once in a world history occurrence .If you make those sort of claims – it is self-understood that you open yourself to public scrutiny .
You cannot make these sort of earth shattering claims [an understatement] and expect immunity.Immunity from open minded , fact based scrutiny .
Hope that made it clear – Scrutiny does NOT mean hate . It just that – scrutiny .
edited
.yankel berel, I usually really like your posts, but I have one criticism, and I hope you won’t be too offended.
Why on earth do you have a space at the end of your sentences before the period? You have done that in most of the sentences of your latest post (I haven’t checked older ones).
PLEASE STOP!
With apologies once again
Your pedantic fan ArsoR Soloveitchik didn’t seem to support women learning b diavad. He sees value in it and writes that classes should be mixed to ensure that girls get same quality. I am not sure this argument still holds, but this is what he said un the 1950s
pesonally, whenever people claim that they have the emmes aad the whole world needs to know it and belive it as well I find that a bit of a kasha.
edited
Aaq, i am trying to be dan lekaf zchus; otherwise, it is a sobering indictment on rabbi soloveitchik.
please do not accept random posts as fact
@yankel berel im not arguing who was a bigger gadal and said bigger chidushim in niglah. i was just saying that in my opinion and many others including many (not all) other gedolim – the rebbe was the greatest talmid chacham since after the war. i go by what it says in tanya perek 2 what a rosh bnai yisroel is – a neshama diatzilus, his mission is to strengthen the emunah of yidden as it says in zohar brought in tanya perek 42, maamer viateh titzave 5741 at length.
btw i beleive based on the way the rebbe was midaek in the frierdiker rebbe’s maamarim and they way he was batul to him, that he considered him a even greater talmid chacham even though there is very little printer from him on niglah.
@yankel berel I learnt some of your rebbi’s hidushim , You get an understanding of his approach. thats bologna. there are many diffrent volumes on many different types of torah. its like learning kol ram of reb moshe and saying you get his approach on niglah. or deroshos chasam sofer and saying you get his approach on niglah or learning tanya and saying you get his approach on niglah. i.e. likutai sichos 1-4 is chassidus said very simple made for people outside chabad. 5- 14 are mostlr deep rashi sichos. then another 200 seforim. maamarim i guess you consider drush, and you made up some idea that ain meshivin al hadrush. the alter rebbe – who you agree is a great gadol in niglah – became a chasid of the magid to learn chassidus. after he printed the shulchan aruch in his 20’s he devoted most of his whole life to learn, teach, and spread chassidus@Arso
Spell checker sides with you. I admit defeat.oh now i understand cs is a women thats how this thread got into gemarah.
well actually i have to say she learns gemarah much better than you guys. (and she has a heter to be on this site even writng dvarim bitalim unlike men who have a isur ro talk and write dvarim bitalim – see shulchan aruch masa umatan and hilchos t”t)
@arso When faced with the Ramban who wrote that we reject yoshke because he died, – the ramban never wrote that. as discussed elsewhere. yoshke was killed for convincing yidden to serve a”z. he was a rahsa, there was never a thought that he is moshiach, the ramban is reffering to a differnt point and was talking to christians, go learn the sugya.
could be rashi dosent hold moshiach can be from the dead – according to the way some learn but the aberbenel learns he can, and (i think) learns rashi that way too. see sefer shmoi shel moshiach, its a website too.
you cant call someone is wrong for following one pshat over an other. just like i dont call the chassidim wrong and a mumar for following r”t shkia and tzais and they dont call us mumarim to be michalel shabbos@sechel
When faced with the Ramban who wrote that we reject yoshke because he died, – the ramban never wrote that. as discussed elsewhere. yoshke was killed for convincing yidden to serve a”z. he was a rahsa, there was never a thought that he is moshiach, the ramban is reffering to a differnt point and was talking to christians, go learn the sugya.
[sechel]
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Another sign of habad apologists ignoring inconvenient facts.
RAMBAN did write that.
He was referring to Xtian belief that J is M .
He was writing this in lh’k and distributed it for the Jews , not for xtians.@sechel
All the sfarim of the manhig of the habad hasidim are overwhelmingly osek in drush and agadeta and similar topics .
On which the klal of Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush applies .His contributions in halaha and in Umka dishma’ata are not at all comparable to Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .Compared to those names mentioned above , the rebbi of the habad hasidim seems like something of a lightweight .
Read [better said learn] the writings of those rabanim . then do the same with the rebbi of the habad hasidim .If you are honest , you will walk away with a totally different feeling .
—-
1] That was [part] of my original post.
I was referring to the specific areas of halaha and umka dishmattsa.
Not to pshat in Chumash Rashi. Not to Drush. Not to Hasidut. Not to agadete.I learned some of your Rebbi’s hidushim in those areas, halaha and umka dishma’atse.
There is no reason to suppose that other hidushim in those areas would be any different to the ones I learnt.Ein meshivin al hadrush is not made up by me. It precedes me by over 2 thousand years at least.
2] You claim that many other gdolim maintained that the rebbi of the habad hasidim was the greatest t’ch after the war.
I can think of no better option than looking at the evidence. Compare his documented writings with those of the other t’ch , and let the evidence speak for itself.
I would suggest that for fairness’ sake we should exclude all and any use of encyclopedia’s and the like. [although this is hard to ascertain ]Mods, it’s well known that rabbi soloveitchik taught girls classes in gemara; when i said im being dan lekaf zchus, i explained why i think he would do it and not be in flagrant violation of halacha – aaq said we should take his actions at face value, which would be an indictment.
I’m sorry, my point was just not to take his words as is without checking. As you will see in his new posting, it is not what Rabbi Soloveichik said at all.
Yes, see full text in the next thread. Did I mis-state anything in mysummary? Tell me – but I did not say anything about RYBS teaching anything himself, only writing, and did not refer to his “actions”
lemaskana
1] Ramban DID write that M who died is not M.
He wrote it to the Jews.
2] CS wrote that non habad women MAY fall into watching non Jewish movies .
So MAY the habad women .
Is there any evidence of increased prevalence in the case of non habad women ?
Based on anecdotal evidence it might be just the opposite.
3] CS insinuated that non habad rebeim and rabanim do not feel responsibility for klal yisrael .
She has not clarified what she meant , nor has she apologised.Hemshech of Summary .
There is no source whatsoever for this idea that we are meant to ‘look for candidates’ for M.
Nor is there any source that we should promote anyone’s ‘candidacy’.
This is totally HKBH’s job.Our job is to keep the torah.
And screen all pretenders ,without fear or favor, according to the timeless criteria mentioned by our truly great , like the Rambam and the Ramban.And remember that criticism and scrutiny on one side have no connection whatsoever with hate on the other side.
And also remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
.mod,
If you must apologize to Satmar for someone writing (respectfully) that Satmar isn’t involved in engaging Jews from all walks of life, you have LOTS of apologies to make to Lubavitch about some slightly less respectful and less true comments made about them throughout this thread.
sometimes there is a fine line between respectfully and ignorantly (as in lacking information). I do my best.
“I don’t see why people find this offensive”
I must say, this is weird. You don’t see why it’s offensive to consider your approach to be the absolute best?
You know, plenty of Chaddarim have internal feelings of pride, or of absolute truth. This is actually ok when you keep it to yourself. It stands to reason that, being that you cannot be in multiple tracks at the same time, you tend to view your current track as the only viable one. And for you, it is actually true — since it would be counter-productive to take on both.
But the trick is: Keep it to yourself!
we already discussed ramban elsewhere. learn perek hachelek, hilchos melochim then the ramban and come back , anyway like i said the abarbenal, rashi, rambam (in igeres techiyas hamasim) clearly say moshiach can be from the dead. btw the rambam in igeres tamon says nevuah will return before the year 5000, i forgot exactly the year.
its not kefirah to say like one opinion,
about rav chaim zimmerman (nephew of Rabbi Baruch Ber Lebowitz)בהזדמנויות רבות היה נכנס ל-770 לשוחח עם הרבי בלימוד, כשכל שיחה כזו הייתה מתנהלת בגאונות עצומה ומראי מקומות “עפו” במהירות בחלל האויר. איש מן הצד, למדן ככל שיהיה, לא היה יכול לעמוד על מהלך הדברים, כאשר ר’ חיים היה מציין מראי מקום אחד, והרבי מיד מחזיר לו במראה מקום נגדי, וכן הלאה – תוך שהם עוברים בין כל מסכתות הש”ס ומפרשיהם. משיחות אלו יצא ר’ חיים נרעש[2].
מסופר כי פעם הגיע לרבי ואמר לו, כי הגיע למסקנה שאת כל סדר קדשים אפשר לסכם בשלושה נקודות עיקריות. הרבי הגיב שניתן אפילו בנקודה אחת… ר’ חיים יצא מכליו[3].
כאשר יצא לאור ספרו “אגן הסהר”, הכניס לרבי את ספר הביכורים מהדפוס. הרבי קיבל את הספר, עבר עליו תוך כחצי שעה והוציא תשובה בה הקשה על חלקים עיקריים מהספר[4]. ר’ חיים התפעל מאוד הן לנוכח המהירות בה עבר הרבי על הספר, והן מול השגותיו של הרבי אותן לא הצליח ליישב. הוא עדיין עמד על מסקנותיו[3]. לאחר זמן, הגיע לדון עם הרבי בנדון, ולאחר שקלא וטריא בנדון – שכללה, כמובן, מראי מקומות שנזרקו שוב ושוב במהירות – נעצר, חשב לרגע ואמר כי אין לו כרגע תשובה, אך הוא עדיין נחרץ שהצדק איתו[2].
לאחר אותו דיון, ניגש אליו הרב יואל כהן (שצפה בהשתאות בשיחה, מבלי להבין את פשר הדברים), ושאלו מהו המיוחד בדרך לימודו של הרבי. ר’ חיים סירב להשיב, בטענה שבין כך לא יבין… אך לבסוף הסביר, כי בדרך כלל גם הגאונים הגדולים – בשעת לימוד סוגיא מונחים בה בעומק, מבלי להיות שקועים כל כך בסוגיות אחרות. כך אפשר למצוא אצל גדולי המפרשים, שלעיתים חוזרים בהם או משנים מעט את המסקנות שהגיעו אליהם בסוגיות אחרות. לעומת זאת הרבי, כל חלקי התורה פתוחים לפניו באותו רגע, וכל הסוגיות מתאימות ועולות בקנה אחד[3].
באותה הזדמנות אמר הגאון לר’ יואל: “עיינתי 12 שעות בלקוטי שיחות כרך ד’ (שיצא לאור באותה תקופה) ולא מצאתי משהו אחד שאינו מתאים עם ירושלמי או בבלי”[2]…
עוד מסופר, כי בהזדמנות התקשר למזכיר הרב חודקוב והעיר אותו בשעה ארבע בבוקר. להפתעתו של המזכיר, הסביר ר’ חיים שהוא קיבל כעת מכתב מהרבי בנושא תורני, ולאחר שעבר עליו הוא מוכרח לומר: “הליובאוויטשער רבי הינו גאון עולם!”.
בספריית אגו”ח שמור אחד הספרים ששלח לרבי, ועליו ההקדשה: “לגאון ישראל חד בדרא ממש, מהר”ר מנחם מענדיל שניאורסון שליט”א האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש. בברכה והוקרה. אהרן חיים הלוי צימרמן”.
the above mentioned sefer with the hakdasha is printed and available in the sefer חד בדרא.
you can say its forged or he didnt mean it, you can also say that anything any gadol said or wrote he didn’t mean. so i guess whoever is the one who really decides what the gadol meant and didnt mean is the real gadol.
in my world, a gadol dosent lie, do chanifa, (those groups are not able to be mikabel pnai shchinah)as well as many other gedolim (for some reason in the books printed about those gedolim it dosent mention it but) in seforim menachem mashiv nafshi, chad bedorah, shemen sason machavarecha, there are hand written letters, pictures, testimony etc. ( in igros moshe there is a letter to the rebbe, he also backed the rebbe about the lag beomer parades after rav shach and the steipler came out against chabad. and he also supported the rebbes mivtzoim, all these you can find in sefer menachem maishiv nafshi)
@CS
1] You are missing the point . Totally.
You totally ignore the issue . Which is – You [attempt] to use the rambam as proof that we are supposed to ‘look for candidates for M’ and ‘promote’ the ones we think is the closest.
THERE IS NO PROOF WHATSOEVER from divrei rambam to your premise .AGREED OR NOT ?
2] Re accepted practice for the idea of ‘looking for candidates’ . The very simple answer is – it has never been done .
there is no record of it in any serious discussion of gdolei hador since hurban habayit.If someone popped up and claimed the mantle , only then was there a discussion.
Again. Not in the Ge’onim. Not in the rishonim. Not in the Poskim not in the aharonim, do we find any discussion of looking for a candidate. [Even though the RBSH’O would undoubtedly have someone ready if needed.]
Not until 50 years ago. In a very specific chug. For a very specific and obvious purpose.Get rid , only for one second of your bias [if possible] , and the sheer truth of what I am telling you , will hit you like a ton of bricks.
.@sechel
I don’t have the time to unpick your propaganda one by one right now.
It is nothing more than that –PROPAGANDA.
Soviet style.
But hope to get to it once bezrH.
@sechel
we already discussed ramban elsewhere. learn perek hachelek, hilchos melochim then the ramban and come back .
[sechel]
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remember the following principle – the flimsier the answers , the glibber the avoidance , the weaker your position is.
[quote from my previous post]GLIB AVOIDANCE .
Nothing more.
The Ramban is crystal clear.
Continue to avoid. the only result will be this :
You are WEAKENING your own position.@CS
Dovid Hamelech lived close to 3 thousand years ago. If you consider 30 years as the average for it to be considered a ‘new’ generation , we are talking about one hundred generations [about].
In ten generations ,every person has 1026 antecedents . Of your 1026 grandparents ,after you go back the first ten generations, each one has , going back another ten generations , another 1026 antecedents.
Another 10 generations equals another 1026 forebears. Do your math- 1026 times 1026 times 1026 equals ?Over one trillion zaidies and bubbies for each of us , all living in the times of Dovid hamelech.
There weren’t so many zaidies , simply because not so many of them existed in dovid hamelech’s times.
So we will HAVE to say that many zaidies and bobbies are a multiplication of ‘zaidihood’.
And that statistically speaking, it would be very unlikely if anyone in that generation would not be a bobby or zaidy.
So probably we would be hard pressed to find someone nowadays who we could categorise as a NON GRANDSON of Dovid Hamelech.All the rebbes nowadays have an impressive yichus going back to the most meyuhas mishpachot in klal yisrael, this is well known.
If you go through their yichus you will most certainly get to Dovid Hamelech .
.
If you are looking for ben ahar ben , I don’t think that the leader of the habad hasidim is either. editedyankel berel: “Spell checker sides with you. I admit defeat.”
And two periods not preceded by a space. Well done!
sechel: “@arso When faced with the Ramban who wrote that we reject yoshke because he died, – the ramban never wrote that.”
1. I was not the one who quoted the Ramban. In fact I have never even looked it up.
2. Others claim that he did write that, and you are the only one here who has disputed that. So please resolve the issue so that those of us who are too lazy to wade through the Ramban can know the truth. Perhaps yankel berel can post a quote.“you cant call someone is wrong for following one pshat over an other.”
I can certainly call someone wrong for following one pshat because it suits what they want to believe. Deciding which pshat is correct – and I don’t know about you, but I feel those on this thread are not in the league of deciding which Rishon or early Acharon is “right” or “wrong” – has to be done dispassionately. Not with the preconception that the LR is Mashiach, so let’s reject anyone who says otherwise.
CS: “Secondly it was never a blanket rule or else Rashi would not have taught his daughters, Tge Or HaChaim HaKadosh wouldn’t have written his peirush (based on shiurim with his daughters) etc etc.
The Alter Rebbes grandmother learned Gemara and taught her daughter to also.”Can you supply sources for the claims made about Rashi and the Or Hachaim above. And, of course, I mean non-Lubavich sources?
As to the Baal Hatanya’s grandmother, would I be wrong in assuming that the source is the memoirs of the Rayatz? As I have shown in the past the stories cited there are allegorical and cannot be taken as cold hard facts. One other question, does the Baal Hatanya in Hilchos Talmud Torah refer to women learning Torah sheb’al peh?
“Please show me another leader invested in caring for every Jew to help them with their issues and needs.”
I apologize for what I’m about to say, but you are getting really annoying! What proof do you have that he cared about every Jew any more than any other tzaddik does? Because he said so? Because he put more effort into mivtzoim than others did, while at the same time allowing so many of his own youth to go OTD or to teeter on the precipice? That is, caring about broadening his fan base even though it meant that his own followers followed a diluted version of chassidus, as I have written in the past. (If you would be here now you would definitely see steam coming out of my ears!)
sechel, you quoted a list of anecdotes about R Chaim Zimmerman’s interaction with the LR. I never met or saw the man, but I have heard a little about him. Wouldn’t I be correct in saying that he was not considered a recognized gadol by virtually all of the chareidi world?
CS: Just because you haven’t bothered looking into it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I actually got the pages of a book written with so much info and references I couldn’t read it through to the end. You’re welcome to look them all up yourself. Problem is the book isn’t online. The title is yechi HaMelech HaMoshiach- by Rabbi Wolpo.
Aha! So the proof is something “investigated” by someone who was a known meshichist even before it was at all popular. He dispassionately proved beyong a shadow of a doubt that the LR is descended ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech. Right. And I’m going to believe him. In non-Lubavich circles he is known as a nutcase. (Mods, if you don’t approve of that term, please alter it to something suitable that retains that meaning.)
Btw thanks for reporting but I’m pretty sure the term Nassi wasn’t out of use for the last 1000 years. If you Google נשיא הדור חבדפדי׳ה you’ll get seforim listed, I don’t think they’re all that old.
I actually went to the site and had a random look at quite a number of the sources quoted. I did not find anything referring to a modern-day Nassi that was not from Lubavich sources. So they simply don’t count for us non-believers.
At the risk of being tedious, I would like to reiterate my stance, which, it seems, is also the stance of a number of others on this thread.
1. None of the Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach apply in any way shape or form to the Lubavicher rebbe.
2. Although he may very well have been ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech, so may I, yankel berel, sechel, CS’s husband and Bernie Sanders. To the best of my knowledge none of the names I have mentioned have incontrovertible proof as to their lineage. The proof that the LR is ben achar ben has been derived by Lubavichers. Give me enough time and money and I can come up with proof of the same value (i.e. worthless) for any/all of the above.
3. Even if he was ben achar ben (and even disregarding his non-qualification in the Rambam’s other criteria), he is still not a suitable candidate because most of Torah-true Klal Yisroel considered his views unacceptable.
edited – the rest required too many edits to post
CS Satmar is not looking to engage every Jew from all spectrums and bring them closer to Hashem.
I am not, never have been, and hope never to become, a Satmar chossid, but you are being very shallow if you think that the Satmar shita was not founded on pure Ahavas Yisroel.
The LR apparently believed that it was important for him to encourage (no… I don’t think I’ll use the word compel) all Yidden to put on tefillin. Ostensibly – at least according to his chassidim – this was done out of his caring for all Yidden. Now as important as tefillin is, it is not ייהרג ואל יעבור. Avodah zarah, on the other hand is, and the Satmar Rebbe (R Yoel zt”l) considered the State of Israel, and anything relating to recognizing it, at the very least אביזרייהו דעבודה זרה. So when he fought vehemently against support it in any way, such as in voting, he was, out of a love of Hashem and Klal Yisroel, caring for all Yidden.
The fact that neither I, nor apparently anyone on this thread, agrees with the Satmar view is irrelevant. His shita, and thus the shita of his chassidim is as much based on Ahavas Yisrael as putting tefillin on non-frum people or any other of the mivtzo’im.
I’d like to bring up an important point, which has very likely been misunderstood by our Lubavicher friends.
What would happen if a rebbe said explicitly, “I am the Mashiach”? What should his chossid think? The answer is that he should definitely believe him! However…
1. He should not say that the rebbe has already fit the criteria of the Rambam (unless he has – but no one in the past millenium has).
2. He should not try to (mis)interpret the Rambam, or any other source, to make it fit the rebbe’s current status.
3. And he should not call anyone who doesn’t accept his rebbe’s statement a kofer or an apikorus. (I don’t believe that anyone on this thread has, but there are a number of prominent Lubavichers who have publicly stated as much in the past. I could cite at least one name, but I’d rather not.)Now a corollary question: could there be any stage when that chossid should reject his Rebbe’s statement, and possibly even find a different Rebbe? I believe the answer is yes – remember, I am a card-carrying member of a chassidus that you are probably aware of – but it would have to be only when the rebbe crossed numerous red lines.
For example (I bet you can guess at least some of what’s coming):
1. If the rebbe was a baal machlokes with many other recognized gedolei Yisroel, or if he consistently denigrated them.
2. If the rebbe himself came up with ludicrous proofs that his way was the best way for all Yidden. An example of ludicrous proofs could be the LR’s explaining how not sleeping in the sukkah shows a higher level of halacha because one is mitzta’er that he can fall asleep due to his hiskashrus. (We’ve been through this before a number of times.)
3. If the rebbe consistently came up with heretofore unheard-of concepts to self-promote, e.g. dor shevi’I, Nassi Hador, the return of nevuah, 770 being Beis Mashiach. (There are more.)That, at least, is the way I look at it.
I have to agree with the Mod and stand up for Satmar here. I think everyone here knows I have LOTS of issues with Satmar, but I can’t fault them for their chessed. They don’t limit it to just their own chassidus, they help everyone. Anyone who’s been in an NYC hospital, especially over Shabbos, and needed food, probably benefitted from Satmar. I know many people that they’ve helped financially as well. So please, don’t claim that Satmar only looks out for their own. It’s simply not true.
sechel, you quoted a list of anecdotes about R Chaim Zimmerman’s interaction with the LR. I never met or saw the man, but I have heard a little about him. Wouldn’t I be correct in saying that he was not considered a recognized gadol by virtually all of the chareidi world?
it was just one example of one gadol,
who was a gadol recognized by everyone? no one never existed. every gadol had others call them names, even very sharp ones. the satmer rebbe was against reb moshe feinstein others too. brisk was against rav shach together with most chassidim – agudas yisroel.
the whole idea of a gadol who was not a posek (i think) started by rav shach
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