- This topic has 854 replies, 21 voices, and was last updated 3 months, 1 week ago by .
-
Posts
-
seforim of the rebbe:
: Torat Menachem transcripts of talks in Hebrew, 1950–1975. (80 volumes)
: Torat Menachem Hitvaduyot – transcripts of talks in Hebrew, 1982–1992 (63 volumes)
: Reshimot – Schneerson’s personal journal discovered after his death. Includes notes for his public talks before 1950, letters to Jewish scholars, notes on the Tanya, and thoughts on a wide range of Jewish subjects penned between 1928 and 1950 (10 volumes)
: Likkutei Sichot – Schneerson’s discourses on the weekly Torah portions, Jewish Holidays, and other issues (40 volumes) – these are not included in torat menachem
: Igrot Kodesh – Schneerson’s Hebrew and Yiddish letters (33 volumes)
Haggadah Im Likkutei Ta’amim U’minhagim – The Haggadah with a commentary written by Schneerson
total 223 seforim. non of the above are adaptions, they are either he wrote himself – reshimos, igrot kodesh, heggadah, or others wrote down what he said by farbrengens – toras menachem, likutai sichos he said and after others wrote it up, he edited. same with maamarim melukat – 6 volumes – but its included in toras menachem
there are more seforim but they are adaptions i.e. Heichal Menachem – Shaarei – talks arranged by topic and holiday (34 volumes)
or sichos kodesh is the same as toras menachem just in yiddish (50 vol)im not saying whoever gave more shiurim is a bigger gadol but 1) whatever other gedolim did, the rebbe did (in many areas much more) like 1000s of hours of teaching torah by farbrengens – 223 volumes!!.
kiruv everyone knows no one can compare to the rebbe.
today many many jews outside chabad learn the rebbes torah either directly or thrue rabbi yy jacobson, rabbi shais taub and many more. no other gadol’s techings are studied by som many jews (that lived after the war, obviously going back hundreds of yrs, there is gemarah rishonim, and gedolai achronim, sh”uCS, there are two halachik reasons why we don’t teach Torah to women, and neither have anything to do with their domestic responsibilities or chazals time and place.
The first reason is that they make Torah into divrei havai.
The second reason, in the yerushalmi, is that they’re easier to persuade than men to do an averah, and Torah makes one able to be tricky if they choose, so that’s a dangerous combination.
My argument is according to the first reason. According to the 2nd reason, even exceptional women would not be allowed to learn, and we know what happened to beruriah in the end, and it was very much tied to that ability to persuade women. Actually, it could be for this reason that the rambam writes that no women who learn gemara have schar, because he (as is often the case) paskens like the yerushalmi and holds that even exceptional women cannot learn gemara.
This was not even postable. If someone taught you that, than shame on you both.
Yes lubavitch is unique in applying it to their Rebbeim. I guess as descendants of Beis Dovid, we are unique. And the term connotes responsibility for all Jews, not just your community.
And yes we’re proud of it and it wouldn’t bother us if others had the same outlook- it would be great if every community looked out for the entire Klal Yisrael.
[CS]
——————
All Rebeim are descendants of Beis Dovid .
But ONLY habad claims the title of Nasi .AND ONLY HABAD CLAIMS THE TITLE OF
“Nasi HADOR”
The whole generation .
Without even asking the generation .
I consider myself part of the generation . But no one asked me …2] Are you insinuating other rebeim do not feel responsibility for all Jews ?????
Only the manhig of the habad hasidim does ?Seems that all rebeim are next in line for waiting for your apology – after the tens of thousands of good orthodox , non habad women who [supposedly] watch non jewish movies , who have not heard from you yet ….
CS’s remarks consistently point to one direction – non reality –
Reality doesn’t count at all .
What habad wishes for , what suits , that constitutes reality .
Once we accept this premise , all kushiyot on habad disappear….@sechel
1] All the sfarim of the manhig of the habad hasidim are overwhelmingly osek in drush and agadeta and similar topics .
On which the klal of Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush applies .His contributions in halaha and in Umka dishma’ata are not at all comparable to Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .Compared to those names mentioned above , the rebbi of the habad hasidim seems like something of a lightweight .
Read [better said learn] the writings of those rabanim . then do the same with the rebbi of the habad hasidim .If you are honest , you will walk away with a totally different feeling .
2] all that is besides the controversial utterances , shitot and youth from the rebbi of habad. Which I would prefer to leave out here .
Avira, the Gemara doesn’t mention דברי הבאי. And the proof from ״אֲנִי חׇכְמָה שָׁכַנְתִּי עׇרְמָה״, כֵּיוָן שֶׁנִּכְנְסָה חׇכְמָה בְּאָדָם — נִכְנְסָה עִמּוֹ עַרְמוּמִית implies that this applies to anyone and it’s not because of a certain biological phenomenon. However, those who are commanded to study Torah must do so regardless. And even so, as I mentioned earlier, you aren’t actually supposed to teach Halachic reasoning to non serious students.
Rashi in Shabbos describes women being at the Shabbos drashos which was geared for them as well as men who aren’t well-learned.
Another point. It isn’t fair to frame it all in terms of Tzidkus and purity. A better judgement would be about intellectual pursuit. If someone who is not really into intellectual ideas picks up some concepts here and there that would obviously be taken wrong. If a woman does fully indulge in academic studies, which is more common today than it has been, there is less reason to apply כיון שנכנסה חכמה.
This is merely an argument in that direction, but far from a conclusion. It is obviously אינה מצווה and shouldn’t be made into what it isn’t. Also, people easily fool themselves into believing that they are different when they aren’t. And, we have indeed seen the ערמה and גאות that seems to stem from the attitude of having outsmarted the Torah and Chachamim.
CS: “I think the term kiddush lubavitch is a defensive term which you could ask yourself why it needs to exist…”
The same could be said of Kiddush Hashem. We only need that term because there are forces – physical and spiritual – who fight against Hashem’s Will. So when Hashem’s Will wins, so to speak, it’s a Kiddush Hashem. Nonetheless, when one group or another “wins” against those who malign, they don’t say “Kiddush Lita” or “Kiddush Satmar”. Only Lubavich has this chauvinistic attitued, and, as I have written in the past, I believe it’s a crutch because they know that the chareidi world has JUSTIFIED complaints against them. By being insular and only thinking about Luabavich, you find it easier to ignore those complaints rather than rectify them.
“It does seem that the bigger a group gets, the harder it is to know everyone within the community/ group, and we know “outsiders” even less.”
You don’t have to know all the details of all the chareidi groups to know of major personalities in those groups. It is only Lubavich who totally ignores those major personalities…. unless they can be quoted saying something in support of Lubavich.
Or unless they are from a long time ago and have no hemshech to their chassidic line. That’s why Lubavich can quote RLY of Berditchev, and Reb Zusha of Annipoli and the like, while it’s much rarer for them to quote, say, Reb Elimelech of Lizhensk. With the former there are no “yorshim” who can possibly pose a threat to Lubavich’s world view. Reb Elimelech of Lizhensk has many yorshim in different lines, and they usually pose a threat.
CS re the ternm Nassi: “Incorrect. It’s in sefarim more recent than that. (Arso has looked into it- ask him).”
Arso reporting for duty! It may not have ended by the early Amora’iim – the truth is that I don’t remember what I found when I investigaed it – but it certainly ended over a thousand years ago.
“Yes lubavitch is unique in applying it to their Rebbeim. I guess as descendants of Beis Dovid, we are unique.”
I would be rolling on the floor laughing if your posts weren’t so sad. As I have written a number of times, your rebbes are as much descendants of Beis Dovid as I, and possibly your won husband, are. No proof whatsoever. And, for your information, there are many gedolei Yisroel around today who are descendants of Beis Dovid, and although they may not be able to prove it 100% with witnesses, their claims have more base to it that Lubavich’s.
” And the term connotes responsibility for all Jews, not just your community.
And yes we’re proud of it and it wouldn’t bother us if others had the same outlook- it would be great if every community looked out for the entire Klal Yisrael.”Reason for more laughter… and tears. Although I am a chassid of only one Rebbe shlita, I KNOW that there are many out there who care about – and who spend hours, days, months and years working for – the benefit and responsibility of the entire Klal Yisroel.
But we don’t make up a term in order to show (ourselves mainly, as I wrote earlier, as a crutch) that we are the best. The last well-known group who did that LEHAVDIL also came up with a unique term. I believe it was son of G-d עפרא לפומייהו!
@CS
This is an interesting point that it never came up in history. I know there was speculation about the third Lubavitcher Rebbe as well (same name also), but I’d like to look into this point more to see if it’s accurate. I don’t think Moshiach candidacy is necessarily unique to lubavitch Chassidus- I could be wrong- I don’t remember other names outright.The premise I’ve always heard is that if the Rambam put the criteria for the Moshiach candidate in a Halacha sefer, then it’s meant for us to act on it.
[CS]
———————-
1] if the rambam put the criteria for the M candidate , then it’s meant for us to act on it [your words]
This is a typical example of habad inverting the plain meaning to suit their propaganda.
Let’s summarize the arguments so far –Normative Yahadut : we are not meant look for candidates for M . If someone pops up and announces himself as M , we will investigate .
Habad : We are meant to look for candidates . The most suitable candidate [in our imperfect human eyes] is the one we should promote .Normative Yahadut : Proof that we are not meant to look for candidates , nor are we meant to promote candidates – For the last 2 thousand years we have not looked around , nor have we promoted candidates for M .
Not The Ge’onim . Not the Rishonim . Not the Poskim . Not the Acharonim . Not those who pray Nusah edot Hamizrah . Not those praying Ashkenaz . Not those who pray Nusach Ari . Not those who pray Nusach Sfard.Habad : Rambam speaks about simanim of M , i.e. the person claiming to be M , when and at what level is he considered as M , when he presents himself .
THAT IS PROOF THAT WE ARE MEANT TO LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR M AND PROMOTE HIM …..Now I am asking very simply – is that PROOF ????????
Do you know the definition of the word PROOF ????????We keep on going in circles again and again and ….
We should STOP and hash it out .
Yes or No .
Is that proof ?Please , CS . [or any other apologists]
IS THAT PROOF OR NOT ?
“And the term connotes responsibility for all Jews, not just your community.”
CS, you have touched on a very interesting point.
I’m sure you’ll agree that despite the concept of arvus for all Yidden, a parent should definitely be more concerned about the actions of his own children that the actions of others. True? And a shul Rabbi whould be more concerned about the actions of his community than that of other communities.
The same is true with a Rebbe. Despite him being concerned with the actions of all Yidden, his responsibility – nothing to do with selfishness – is first and foremost to his own chassidim, and only then to the rest of Klal Yisrael.
In the opinion of virtually all non-Lubavichers who know what the situation is in Lubavich that I have talked to, this is a big part of the problem of Lubavich. You can claim what you like about (non-existent) Nesius, and Meshichism, but he neglected his community more than he should have. Of course I don’t mean that he ignored them, but he should have put less effort into “running the world” and more into his own followers. That is why the tznius in Lubavitch, and the numbers of youth going OTD is far worse than in any other chassidus WITHOUT EXCEPTION.
What percentage of unmarried kids in, say, Satmar, Belz, Ger, Vizhnitz, Tsanz etc have access to unfiltered internet and to unfiltered smartphones? Now what is the percentage in Lubavich? I don’t know figures, but I do know that the percentage in Lubavich is many many times greater than in the other groups. The same is unfortunately true with kids – even kids of committed shluchim – going OTD. (If you deny any of this I will conclude one of two things: either you are lying outright or you are completely insane. I KNOW exactly what I am talking about, and I have been asked many times to deal with the problem specifically in Lubavich. I’m sure you’re surprised at that, but it’s true.)
You also write, in regards to Lubavich kids doing kol minei nevoloh: “Coming from lubavitch, The ones who consistently are into learning and can rattle off the sichos in depth, are not generally the ones involved with that kind of stuff…”
What you don’t realise is that for many of us, what constitutes “kol minei nevoloh” is far different to what you consider it. I’ll give you two examples. Amongst other chassidim, chassanim meeting their kallos after the engagement is non-existent or at the very least kept to a VERY bare minimum. In Lubavich it is unfortunately common practice. In Lubavich bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls is acceptable. Not in other chatzeiros.
Even the ones who can rattle off sichos keep to these very low standards, and virtually all (that I know of – you can correct me here if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am) have smartphones which they access even in shule.
CS: “fearing and loving Hashem. You can’t fulfill these mitzvos adequately without learning about Hashem. Without learning you will not have these emotions.”
I disagree. The above is not the case for women. Women can reach true ahavah and yir’ah without learning, by fulfilling their mitzvos and trying to be כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. Men have to learn, but it is the Torah that affects them, not davka learning about Hashem.
“The premise I’ve always heard is that if the Rambam put the criteria for the Moshiach candidate in a Halacha sefer, then it’s meant for us to act on it.”
I believe you’ve heard it, but the sevoro doesn’t hold water. Are we meant to “act on”, say, kemitzah, or on the planetary system the Rambam writes in his halachos?
“At the end of the day, lubavitch knows the Rebbe most intimately, and we make this judgment call of character to accept the Rebbe as our Rebbe, and therefore listen to what he says. It’s really that simple. A liar or imposter and a authentic Torah leader are worlds apart in character and teaching etc. And the thousands who are Lubavitcher Chassidim attest to the Rebbes integrity by their choice to be lubavitch.”
There is no question that Lubavichers will listen to everything their rebbe said, and believe whatever he said to believe. And as I have written in the past, I would be totally shocked if you were to start believing what I believe about the LR just because of what we write on this thread.
The point is, however, that it’s time you realise that “We believe in our rebbe, because we (somehow) chose him,” is the only argument that we will accept as logical, albeit leading to a false belief. It’s when you start citing that he fits the criteria of Mashiach – what Lubavich publishes in books about his lineage, and willingly misinterpreting the word ‘compel’ to suit your required result, has absolutely no value in the real Torah-world – that he is a Nasi, that he was the greatest person whoever lived, that he was the greatest talmid chochom ever etc, and you EXPECT US TO ACCEPT THE ABOVE as valid arguments, that is when we shake our heads in disbelief!
CS: “The Zirkind’s and other families who became lubavitch from chasseedish were encouraged to keep their levush.”
The Zirkinds were originally Malachim, which was a group that split from, and hated passionately (more than I do!!!!), Lubavich. As someone once explained to me, they and others were told to keep their levush because it would fool others into assuming how cosmopolitan and accepting Lubavich was.
“And of course, if he was so vain cvs , why would he care for every Jew? A vain person has enough of a challenge dealing with his own community.”
You’re doing it again, mouthing a slogan without basis as if it’s fact! Who said he cared for every Jew? He did! I, and I’m confident many others on this thread, believe that he indeed cared THAT every Jew became a follower of his.
As to the ‘psak’ against giving back land, do you seriously not realize that not everything that happened in farbrengens became a sicha?! It wasn’t a published sicha; it was what happened at a farbrengen. Ask people who should remember (I certainly do) and they’ll tell you all about it.
ARSo, as a Chossid of a Rebbe and a Chossid in general, you should be careful about speaking דברי זלזול on a famous Gadol and Rebbe.
Yes, there are gripes and מילתי דתמיה but to personally be מזלזל is a big leap that you need to be wary of.
It is no doubt that many Rebbes, Mekubalim and great Talmidei Chachamim held him in very high regard. His Tefillos and Brachos bore fruit and his advice brought success. These are traditional metrics of gauging someone who is a cut above. His Bekius was attested to by Talmidei Chachamim who spoke to him, as well as written works.
I wanted to remain silent in this conversation but I’m not allowed to. Be carefull. You know the Gemara in Brachos 19a about what happens even if the Chochom doesn’t care.
Halevi, ok – not divrei havai, that’s the lashon harambam; the gemara’s lashon is tiflus. Is that any better?
As for your understanding of the yerushalmi, it’s missing daatan kalos – not only is there armah, which makes them able to hide their sins, they are daatan kalos and more easily persuaded to sin than men. And that’s a constant, axiomatic principle, to which even beruriah was not immune, as rashi tells us. She thought she was above that dictum, but rebbe meir showed her how she was not. Also chachma refers to Torah, not math and science.
And from that story, i believe that the rambam paskenex that no women at all, even the minority, havd schar for torah shebaal peh, because of the yerushalmi and the story with bruriah, even in the event that she’s from the minority which are not motzi divrei Torah ldivrei havai, because he does not qualify the “ain la schar” with anything – she, any woman, does not have schar, because she is putting herself in the same trap that ensnared bruriah.
And you’re falling into the trap of comparing secular studies to Torah. Take a look at the “serious” “teshuvos” written by women who study gemara. They’re a complete bizayon, degrees and all. Modern Orthodox jews like to compare Torah with science – they work differently, snd anyone who’s learned Torah b’iyun knows that
CS,
Quoting sichos, stories and chabad apocrypha ad-infinitum won’t change anyone’s mind, especially with your “we’re better than everyone else” attitude.
The rest of Jewry never accepted the Rebbe, zt”l as nasi hador or mashiach and certainly doesn’t now, three decades after his passing.
You’re wasting untold hours of your life attempting to do so.
I’m quite busy these days, but just decided to take a peek and look through this thread. Unsurprisingly, I found nothing new. Same haters expressing their hate and loyalists expressing their loyalty.
Just some thoughts on some factual claims that I noticed:
Avira,
“What about rav eliezer silver rescuing orphans from a christian compound after the Holocaust”Funny you mentioned this. This story is recounted countless times in Chabad Houses, it comes out of my ears.
ARSo,
What you don’t realise is that for many of us, what constitutes “kol minei nevoloh” is far different to what you consider it. I’ll give you two examples. Amongst other chassidim, chassanim meeting their kallos after the engagement is non-existent or at the very least kept to a VERY bare minimum. In Lubavich it is unfortunately common practice. In Lubavich bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls is acceptable. Not in other chatzeiros.I was honestly wondering what you meant by “mixing of genders” in Crown Heights, which I have never seen. Thanks for giving more specific examples.
I have never seen bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls. Bochurim would not go to a friend’s house for Shabbos or for a meal if they have sisters in their age group at home.
During the engagement (which is usually about 2 months), chosson and kalla usually meet once every 2-3 weeks (so about 4 times during engagement), the less the better. However, the Rebbe encouraged the chosson and kallah to stay be in different cities for the duration of the engagement, so, depending on the distance, the meetings are sometimes less frequent.
Even the ones who can rattle off sichos keep to these very low standards, and virtually all (that I know of – you can correct me here if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am) have smartphones which they access even in shule.
Until about 21, pretty much all the chassidishe bochurim don’t have. Closer to marriage it does become more common (with strong filters obviously).
Are we meant to “act on”, say, kemitzah, or on the planetary system the Rambam writes in his halachos?
I don’t want to get into the whole Moshiach question, but it seems that CS was saying that the Rambam isn’t just giving us nice information on Jewish concepts, rather he is giving practical instructions for identifying Moshiach.
ARSo seems to be countering that we find other parts of Rambam which are clearly just informative but not meant to be practical halacha.ARSo, correct me if I understood your point wrong, but your examples seem to hold very little water:
Of course kemitza is meant to be acted upon, when we have a Beis Hamikdash.
The planetary system is also meant to act upon, by:
1) Using it to contemplate Hashem’s greatness, thus fulfilling the mitzvos of ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem (which is why he brings it in הל’ יסוה”ת. See פ”ב ה”ב, פ”ד הי”ב)
2) Beis Din using it to test the עדי ראיה for rosh chodesh (which is why he brings it in הל’ קידוש החודש. See פ”א ה”ז, ספי”ט).P.S. Again, I’m not getting into the argument whether the Rambam’s Moshiach qualifications apply in this case, rather the general discussion if the Rambam meant his sefer to be practical halacha (as he write in his hakdama) or general information.
Gosh, until you reverted to the beloved “haters” statement I actually valued your perspective and saw you as above the PR stuff. What a let down.
CS: “I think we’ve discussed this before. The other chareidim operate on chitzonius first basis.”
Absolute garbage!
“This is my info from my personal contacts.”
Delete those contacts because they are liars!
“So if you have the perfect dress and keep the communal standards, your kids can go to the school.”
Who mentioned school? I certainly didn’t. I am talking about the lack of tznius present in many Lubavicher women, both FFBs and BTs. I have seen it and am accosted by it on a regular basis (את חטאי אמני מזכיר היום).
“his doesn’t mean lubavitch has less yiras shomayim overall”
Wrong! It does mean it… although that’s not the only reason we others think that that is the case.
“if you have to worry about external factors, that may inhibit those struggling to open up and get help.”
There is an implication there that is truly shocking! Tznius for women is NOT an “external factor”. It is quite possibly the number one mitzvah that women have, as with a lack of tznius women is machshil literally hundreds of men every day. And that is not even dealing with the ramification that “if Mrs So-and-so can dress this way, cerainly I can.” edited
CS re tznius in Lubavitch: “lubavitch embraces many different levels of Yiddishkeit and chassidishkeit, and we all mix with each other with an emphasis on ahavas Yisrael, so those baalei teshuva who have not gone the whole way, and the Ffb who has chilled, are equally as part of the community as the most Chassidish.”
That is so similar to my chassidus. Many of us eat on Yom Kippur so that those baalei teshuva who have not gone the whole way, and the Ffb who has chilled, are equally as part of the community as the most Chassidish. If we would enforce fasting on Yom Kippur it would turn people away, and that is the worst thing possible!
“So all in all, your comparisons are off.”
It’s not our comparisons that are off. It’s your brainwashed views that it’s more important to allow foreign influences to affect frum people negatively than it is to raise yir’ei Shomayim. And no, you do not have as many yir’ei Shomayim as any other chareidi group!
I’m sorry, but I find your arguments sick. In fact, they come straight out of the Conservative and Reform movements.
CS: “Bit more nuanced. Even after dor shvii commenced, The Rebbe held of the Frierdiker Rebbe as the real Rebbe, and the Rebbe as merely his spokesman (because others couldn’t hear directly from him since yud Shvat), and thus The Rebbe still referred to him as Moshiach of the generation for many years”
In other words, he eventually decided to invent the concept of dor shevi’i so that it would fit himself… which is exactly what I said.
CS: “AAQ,
“ If a lady shows interest in learning more in depth of mitzvos – that is what gemora is in the wider meaning – this should surely enhance her ability to look after her family yiddishkeit.”Bingo. Not sure why this wasn’t obvious to all”
Not obvious to me, and I still disagree. Women learning gemoro is something that has always been prohibited. Ergo (I don’t think I have ever used that word before! Shehecheyanu…) women don’t need it. To say that times have changed and women need it now implies that when Chazal said that it was not proper they did not take into account today’s women. Perhaps when they came up with the issur of, say, muktzeh, they also weren’t taking into account today’s generation.
From the mods to sechel: “This was not even postable. If someone taught you that, than shame on you both.”
Is there any authority that we can appeal to to force you to show us what he wrote? It sounds like the most interesting post on this thread 🙂
sechel, the list you gave shows that the Lubavicher rebbe did indeed personally write a few more seforim than I said, but it clearly shows that of the 200+ seforim, most of them were NOT written by him.
Quoting myself for a change: “As someone once explained to me, they [family Zirkind] and others were told to keep their levush because it would fool others into assuming how cosmopolitan and accepting Lubavich was.”
I reread this and realized that people would think it was just an outlandish claim made by someone who doesn’t like Lubavich. So please allow me to clarify.
When someone joins a group he wants to be part of that group and identify with them fully. Naturally, therefore, he wants to adopt their dress code, and this is what happened in a number of cases when people joined Lubavich. One example is the brother of the Rachmastrivka Rebbe shlita who still wears the full Rachmastrivka levush even though he has been a fully-fledged Lubavicher for decades. And the reason he didn’t change is because the Lubavicher rebbe told him not to. This is not conjecture; it is a well-known fact. Go and ask him if you don’t believe me.
Now why would the LR stop someone identifying in a manner which would allow him to feel the part fully. The answer that I was given is, as I wrote, to attract others to Lubavich.
So, in contrast to what CS wrote, it is not out of caring for the feelings of those who came with a different levush.
HaLeiVi, I appreciate your concern, seriously, but when one sees people being misled along a non-Torah path by someone who invents concepts and bends others to fit himself, one is actually obligated to speak out. Even if many people held that person in high regard.
Also, please be aware that quite a few of the people who held him in high regard were relying on third-party stories and propaganda, and hadn’t actually investigated his statements, as Rav Shach, the Brisker Rov and the Chazon Ish had. A number of them were also being dan lechaf zechus.
Menachem, welcome back!
“I have never seen bochurim eating at the same table as non-related girls. Bochurim would not go to a friend’s house for Shabbos or for a meal if they have sisters in their age group at home.”
I have. In regular Lubavich homes all over the world.
“During the engagement (which is usually about 2 months), chosson and kalla usually meet once every 2-3 weeks (so about 4 times during engagement), the less the better. However, the Rebbe encouraged the chosson and kallah to stay be in different cities for the duration of the engagement, so, depending on the distance, the meetings are sometimes less frequent.”
I know how he encouraged that, but you’re still missing the point. When they are in the same city, as is often the case all over the world, they usually meet much more often than once it 2-3 weeks. Again, I know this from experience. But even 2-3 weeks is far too often, and thus considered a davar nevalah, in other chassidic circles. Not to mention the hours-long facetime calls that take place between those meetings. (I just did mention it, didn’t I?)
“Until about 21, pretty much all the chassidishe bochurim don’t have [smartphones – Arso]. Closer to marriage it does become more common (with strong filters obviously).”
That is so not true on both points. Again from knowledge, not conjecture.
In regards to your defence of CS about “acting on” the Rambam’s halachos. You are taking the point out of context. Of course we are meant to act on the halachos, and in the case of the criteria we – or actually the Sanhedrin, I imagine – are meant to act on it when a candidate arises to see if he UNEQUIVOCALLY fits those criteria. But CS explained that when she wrote “act on” it she meant to try to identify a candidate, not to rule whether a candidate fit. The discussion was searching for a candidate, and that’s what she was talking about.
To the point of “haba letahair mesayin..” that refers to one who is actively engaged in doing what Hashem told them to do. For a woman, it means purging all forms of inner and outer pritzus, for instance. If she begins to want to do that, she will gain immeasurable siyata dishmaya. That’s haba letahaer. It doesn’t mean that if you yourself decided that something chazal forbid or at the very least, you’ll agree, discourage, should be a mitzvah, that Hashem will protect you from the damage that can come from it that is included in chazals own statements. Lubavitchers don’t get a special shmira more than anyone else.
Imagine for a second that you would be forbidden from learning certain things. Does that make you feel unequal to men, that it isn’t fair? Do you feel that even a tiny bit? One thing I’ve learned from chasidus is to engage in difficult, gut wrenching introspection, to identify the good, the bad, and the ugly parts of ourselves. Granted it’s human nature to get too involved in the negative, so it shouldn’t be a constant thing, but sometimes it’s good to dig deep and see….maybe i am being motivated by feminism on some level? Maybe i – myself – have been influenced by zionism after October 7? These are things we all must do.
Avirah, you’re back to your old self, insulting Modern Orthodoxy whenever you can, for no reason whatsoever. You’re completely wrong, BTW – Modern Orthodox Jews don’t equate learning Torah with science. Please put aside your hatred, and actually educate yourself.
Can’t keep up with everything here…
Cs> get her many responsibilities and lacking the concentration and interest needed, was not a good thing according to Rabbi Eliezer.BTW, r Steinzaltz attaches an epithet like extreme to r Eliezer here. As long as you already have gemora opened 😉 see how he generally stands against other chachamim especially about women
Avira: chochma = Torah, and then torah learning ain’t science…
We clearly have chochma that exists among goyim. As to learning style, torah learning include sevorah, and builds upon it. If done with integrity, there’s a lot to be found in interaction between torah principles and modern science. It may be the most intellectually exciting issue of modern times and don’t put it down because it can lead to mixed dancingDa,i didn’t say that all of them equate the two. I said they compare them, which almost all do, because that’s how they justify teaching girls gemara. If there are modern orthodox jews who do not share this particular apikorsus – gevaldig.
Also, you’re well aware of norman lamms ideology and his statements about math requiring a birchas hatorah r”l. It is definitely a movement within modern Orthodoxy, though its more religious element does not accept it (though they don’t do a very good job at condemning it either)
When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?
Don’t they realize that usage of the hate excuse , only showcases the weakness of their arguments ?Aaq, rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik writes that attributing any personality related motivation to divrei chazal is clear apikorsus. Calling rebbe eliezer “extreme” or questioning his statements about any issue, be it women or tanor achinai, is being malig al divrei chachamim and im surprised the mods allowed that to go through. It’s the worst thing I’ve ever seen you write – chazal are relaying the dvar Hashem. To say that anything they said was not Torah, but middos related, is nust Zechariah frankel apikorsus. Not to mention easily debunked.
Avira, you’re wrong yet again. Teaching women Gemara has nothing to do with science. As I wrote earlier in the thread, there are opinions from major rabbonim (such as R’ Henkin) that it’s permissible to teach Gemara to women as long as it’s by choice, and not mandated. So it can be an elective class, not a required class. I posted a link to an article from R’ Jachter which goes through all the sources.
As for RABBI Lamm’s thoughts, if only we’d all be on the level where we looked at everything we learned from a Torah perspective, then yes, we probably should recite Birchas haTorah. For example, when the Gra wrote his sefer explaining trigonometry, even though it’s math, it was used to properly understand Maseches Sukkah. Studying trig in order to understand the Gemara is learning Torah.
Mod, “Gosh, until you reverted to the beloved “haters” statement I actually valued your perspective and saw you as above the PR stuff. What a let down.”
I should have said “same opponents expressing their opposition and defenders expressing their defense.”
My point was that we pretty much know that some people here take strong issue with Lubavitch and they will probably continue their attacks no matter what, and others here are Lubavitchers (myself included), and they will probably continue their defense no matter what.
attacks, hate, different versions of the same PR point. Pretending it isn’t okay for people to defend Torah values, on both “sides of the aisle” is a PR stunt.
What a let down
Nothing new from what has been going on in hundreds of pages of CR threads of rehashing this topic.ARSo,
Menachem, welcome back!
Thank you! Busy times, not sure how long often I can pop in.
Regarding your points in response to my post, I guess we see different circles in Chabad.
Now why would the LR stop someone identifying in a manner which would allow him to feel the part fully. The answer that I was given is, as I wrote, to attract others to Lubavich.
The idea of changing levush is a bit more complicated. There were some whom the Rebbe permitted to change their levush and others whom he didn’t. I haven’t yet seen any places where the Rebbe addressed this idea outright (it’s mainly rumors), so I’m not so clear on this, but my understanding of the reasoning for not allowing to change was:
1) Lubavitch was never very into the concept of levush, to an extent it was looked at as a chitzoniusdike idea, and the Rebbe didn’t want people to feel that the way you dress decides if you are Lubavitch or not (people shouldn’t feel that now that they wear a different kind of hat they are considered an official Lubavitcher and potur from avoda…)
2) Often, similar to new baalei teshuva, the family of a new Lubavitcher was very nervous about the change and often something so blatant as changing one’s garments could set off bitter family strife.
3) It is indeed possible that another reason was as ARSo wrote, that the Rebbe felt that by keeping the levush they would have an easier time relating to those from their previous sect, thus making it easier for that individual to do hafatzas hamaayanos, which has been a main focus of the Lubavitcher derech since the times of the Alter Rebbe (originating already from the Baal Shem Tov with chassidus haklolis).
It’s interesting to note that when chassidim came from Russia, many of them were also instructed by the Rebbe not to change their levush from a kasket to a fedora (e.g. the iconic Reb Mendel Futerfas).
Another related incident: Artist Boruch Nachshon joined Chabad from a modern Israeli family in the 50s. Before his chassuna, his mashpia advised him to begin wearing a hat and kapote, but his family (kippa seruga style) didn’t want him to. The Rebbe wrote to him (14 Tammuz 5722):
פשוט שאין זה ענין כלל לעורר רוגז (ועל אחת כמה וכמה – מחלוקת) בדבר הלבוש בעת החופה והחתונה, ושנואה המחלוקת כו’ וגדול השלום.
Since then he wore a french barrett instead of a classic Chabad hat.(Again, aside from the last story, I haven’t seen anything written about this, so they are just my theories or rumors that I’ve heard. I’ll try to do more research on the matter)
Lamm was not a rabbi, he was an apikores, and rightfully called so by his peers who left YU in protest, including rabbi abba bronspiegel.
He didn’t write that math is important because it helps you understand sukkah. He said it’s important because all knowledge is important, and that it is all from his god. And no, you would not be able to make a bracha on math to learn sukkah, because it would be a hechsher mitzvah, upon which brochos cannot be recited.
I read the jachter article. He quotes not “rav henkin,” the gadol hador, but rather his extremely modern grandson, hertzl henkin (need i say more with a name like hertzl?) – the same unqualified “posek” who permits mixing genders and joined the “orthodox” feminists as a scholar in residence. The other posek he quotes is a zionist shu”t sefer, aseh lecha rav, which is full kf other deviant psakim. Then there’s rabbi yoshe ber and his brother – fine, so we have the modern Orthodox rabbis to prove the modern Orthodox perspective? Come on.
Yankel Berel
“When will the habad apologists understand and agree that criticism does not necessarily equal hate ?”
1) See my correction/explanation in my response to the mod.
2) Why did you mention nothing of the “modern orthodox apologists” who are calling out people for “hatred” a few posts later?
@seforim of the rebbe: yesterday you thought the rebbe wrote only 1 sefer, after just being told the rebbe has 223, somehow you managed to read all them and decide its mostly drush?! genius!
there is alot of drush, the rebbe has over 1000 explanations on rambam (collected in rambam pardes hamelech) many on halacha – collected in shulchan menachem – i think 8 volumes. many on shas – collected in chidushim al hashas, chidushim ubiurim rabosainu nisienu on diferent mesechtos. and much more, do your reseach.
and what are you trying to say by Ein Meshivin Al HaDrush?
yankel berel: btw i learned the entire shulchan aruch harav, and many parts of other seforim you mentioned, how much of the rebbe’s seforim did you learn? ok youre point? so after the ketzos, there is no more gedolim youre trying to say?
@ arso so he said most of it (by farbrengens spoke for 4-12 hours without any seforim or notes, not getting up to use the bathroom btw (most on recording, many on video) and chassidim wrote it up, whats the difference?
(i’m sorry for what i wrote, it was too harsh, the source is a old nigun of chassidim not chabad, today b”h things changed with the spread of chassidus and musar)“They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of”amazing idea, i would say the oppisite. the rebbe’s way of learning was to answer many questions (some times 5 some times 15) with a deeper explanation of the sugya, that prooves the truth to the answer whereas when you have one question and one answer you can always ask another question. the rebbes derech was also to explain the lishitasahu of taanayim, amoraim, rishonim, and show how thru shas they follow that way of looking at the sugyos. (see Otsar Likkutei Sichos – Leshitasayhu)
seems like you really learned alot of sichos of the rebbe?
More on jachter’s writings: he quotes r. Mayer twersky who defends rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik teaching gemara to women by saying that he’s just extending the chofetz chaims heter that he gave to beis Yaakov to teach tanach and mussar, because what’s really the differenc? Both are agreeing that the gemara isn’t being applied – the fallacy here is that it isn’t the chofetz chaim who makes a distinction between tanach and gemara…. it’s the rambam!! Clearly, the rambam writes that torah she’biksav isn’t lechatchila, but not assur, whereas torah shebaal peh is assur!! Black and white, clear as day.
Few halachos are as clear as this, but modern Orthodoxy charges on. Rabbi yoshe ber was a complicated person. Maybe he was just wrong and got caught up in kiekeergard, or maybe he may have done it to placate the masses; had he come out and said that it was assur, he would have lost his followers to more liberal people,even conservative.
It could be he had to, and since the women in his community were learning apikorsus in school, they certainly weren’t ready to handle what they would view as a backward, misogynistic rule from the all-male rabbis. Maybe he felt it was pikuach nefesh, and that it’s no different than being mechalel shabbos to prevent someone from being shmadded.
mod,
Sorry for the let down. I’m actually impressed with myself that I managed to fool you for so long! 😃
P.S. As an aside, I hope you noticed that I didn’t use the idea of “defenders” any less mockingly then I used the idea of “attackers”…
There is a vort that’s said in the name of a great tzaddik who lived before the times of the Baal Shem Tov who was involved in heavy machlokes with another great tzaddik (I won’t say his name because I’m not sure if I’m quoting it correctly, but the point is definitely true in many cases): ‘Only on the first day our machlokes was לשם שמים, from after that it was personal’.
I think this is definitely true in this machlokes. (–This is in response to the mod’s statement about “pretending it isn’t okay for people to defend Torah values”…)@sechel
So you still hold by the premise that your rebbi’s hidushim in halaha and umka di shmatsa rival those of r akiba eiger and hatam sofer ?
Interesting …@menachem
I did not see those posts . Pl realize that my posts are not published immediately . [Apparently they need to be checked .] All posts are”checked”
So there is some time between my writing and its appearance .
Second of all, I have no particular interest in the MO vs haredi debate .
I barely read those posts.@sechel
btw i learned the entire shulchan aruch harav, and many parts of other seforim you mentioned, how much of the rebbe’s seforim did you learn? ok youre point? so after the ketzos, there is no more gedolim youre trying to say
——————-
Not at all . Learn a Ma’aracha of R’AE on a sugya be’iyun . Then learn your rebbi’s hidushim on same sugya , and tell me honestly –are they in the same league ?
Talking about SH’HRav I am referring to Kuntras Achron , not the halahot .
I learnt some of your rebbi’s hidushim , You get an understanding of his approach .
There is no comparison between the Gdolei Yisrael I mentioned and your rebbi .
A quick recap of those Ge’onim
Rav Akiva Eiger , Mishneh LeMelech , Hatam Sofer , Noda BiYehuda , Shulhan Aruch Harav , Pnei Yehoshua , Ktsot Hachoshen , Havat da’at , Urim Vetumim etc.
Those were [some of the] truly great amongst klal yisrael .They wrote on areas where there is clear responsibility , areas where you cannot say hidushim which merely SOUND nice .
In those areas you can be confronted with clear proofs against you , which you will have to answer to , which will hold you to account .
This is the stuff real Gdolei Yisrael are made of .Avira, the Tiflus itself is likely dependent on not being fully into the academics. It is obvious that someone who is only partly interested in half-understood reasoning and far-fetched cases of illustration will misuse the little that they do get a hold of. What might be more common today, is women who are fully engrossed in academics.
According to Rebbe Yehosha, I guess there is no way out. But the Rambam implies that it is about the mind, in which case it makes sense to assume it is not necessarily about brain capability but more about how intellectual pursuits are handled.
I believe you are spot on about the movement and its effect, as well as the Gaava (on others as well as on Chachamim) and the shallow/Academic level. I’m on board with it being a problem to introduce and promote it. My main point is about those Yechidos who, on their own, gravitate toward opening Sefarim and learning בהצנע לכת and אמונת חכמים.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.