Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

Haleivi, prior to yeridas hadoros and the necessitation of chadarim, Torah was primarily transferred from father to son.

@ yankel berel so you heard from your close relative something that makes no sence (i dont want to repeat such apikorsos)edited–ironic but motzei shem rah
this rabbi wrote up his personal encounter.
you can choose which one to believe.

Rabbah declared: “I, for example, am a beinoni.” Said Abbaye to him, “Master, you make it impossible for any creature to live….”
Abbaye argued thus: “If you are a beinoni, then all those on a lower level than you fall into the category of the wicked, concerning whom our Sages say:9 ‘The wicked, even while alive, are considered dead.’ By calling yourself a beinoni, you thus make it impossible for anyone to live.”

if the rebbe wasn’t a gadal, who was?

Thanks sechel for bringing the thread back to its original (and IMHO much more interesting 🙂 ) topic.

You wrote: “if the rebbe wasn’t a gadal, who was?”

Um, now that’s a hard one. How about the Vizhniter Rebbe, the Belzer Rebbe, Rav Moshe Sternbuch, Rav Meir Bergman, the Amshinover Rebbe etc etc etc (no particular order in the above)?

And I have a question. If the Lubavicher rebbe was atzmus melubash beguf, and thus all-powerful, why wasn’t he able to avoid having a stroke, and avoid dying?

“if the rebbe wasn’t a gadal, who was?“

Someone who didn’t declare themselves to be Mashiach.

CS, chabad are the ones who made a contest out of yiddishkeit. Do you ever use the phrase “kiddush Lubavitch”? It refers to things that glorify the name of chabad, not necessarily Hashem. Chabad engage in otherizing the rest of klal yisroel routinely – every opportunity to spread “chasidis” to people who can’t read Hebrew, instead of teaching basic Yiddishkeit, is seized.

Stories are constantly told of how Lubavitch missionaries or the Lubavitcher rebbe “saved the day,” to the complete exclusion of every other group in klal yisroel. Tell me, as a Lubavitcher, have you ever heard any stories about rav noach Weinberg’s kiruv activities? Have you ever heard of him at all? What about rav eliezer silver rescuing orphans from a christian compound after the Holocaust? Again, did you ever hear of his name? I’m betting not. Because if it isn’t Lubavitch, it isn’t worth mentioning.

CS, basically none of the chasidishe schools teach more than Chumash with Rashi, with lots of other seforim for mussar. Some chassidishe schools, including satmar, do not teach with Rashi, because that’s considered torah sheball peh according to them.

The litvishe are very maikil and will teach tons of meforshim on tanach, but will never teach mishnayos and gemara(except pirkei avos). They hold that anything used to understand torah she’biksav isn’t an issue.

The vast majority of ehrliche women throughout history were completely uneducated in seforim. According to you, did they all indulge in goyishe things? Chas veshalom! A girl who grows up knowing what their purpose is and who is taught the dangers of goyishe culture will not get involved in such things, whether they’re chasidishe or litvishe.

But some girls simply don’t keep what they’re taught. And if you want to start getting into anecdotal incidents…. those with glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Have you seen what became accepted in crown heights in recent years? Are you aware of how many girls – and boys – who can rattle off sichos but are engaged in kol minei nivalah?

A woman’s ruchnius isn’t from learning. It’s from tznius, chesed and davening. Learning Torah accomplishes everything for a man; it does very little for women. Perhaps it can be an element of avodad Hashem, but there’s a reason why it is not a chiyuv – and we know that גדול המצווה ועושה, one who does what he is obligated to do is bigger than one who does something they’re not obligated to do. It’s a basic chazal; the enthusiasm women might have over learning could be the same kind of yatzer hora that makes men more interested in chessed than learning – it’s a yatzer hora.

?

Contrast this with a woman who grows up in a very frum home and community, but wasn’t blessed to learn and see the deeper side of Torah, it’s not hard to understand why she may find her pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies, music, books etc even if she’s dressed tznius to the hilt, and the impact this has on her home…
[CS]
————————
Are all other posts by CS so divorced from reality as this one ?

CS ought to offer an unequivocal apology to the many tens of thousands of sincere women who are “not blessed to learn and see the [so called] deeper side of Torah” but nevertheless do not find ‘their pleasure and down time in non Jewish movies’ .

There are – probably- less women ‘blessed’ or influenced by the deeper side of torah [i.e. habad] who do not find their pleasure in non jewish movies , than women not ‘blessed’ by the deeper side of torah [i.e. non habad] who do not find their pleasure in non jewish movies .

CS – and the other habad apologists on this thread – seem to live in an alternate universe ….
.

CS to yankel berel: “you say the reason others didn’t see The Rebbe as a candidate for Moshiach (obviously among the ones who didn’t) had nothing to do with the alive or dead debate? So what was it then?”

It obviously had nothing to do with the dead-or-alive debate because at the time ALL Lubavichers said Mashiach has to be someone who is currently alive, which has been pointed out again and again.

As to the reason the vast – virtually 100% – of the non-Lubavich chareidi world would not accept the LR as candidate for Mashiach, the answer is very simple: he did not fit any of the criteria, again, as I have pointed out again and again.

One other point came to mind. The Rambam, which Lubavich quotes, says that Mashiach will be osek beTorah keDavid aviv. Any idea why davka like David? Why compare him to anyone, when the Rambam could simply have said that he has to be osek beTorah constantly, or the like? Well I can suggest an answer.

The gemoro (Berachos 4a) tells us how unbelievably humble David was when it came to learning Torah, and how he was always willing and ready to admit that he was wrong. The LR was certainly nothing like that. He was always right and never stopped trying to convince others that his way was the only correct way. One illustrative example is his constant “nagging” other Rebbes and Roshei Yeshivos to institute the study of chassidus, even though that would have been a departure from their mesores.

That, of course, is not the only time he displayed “stubborness” when contradicted with facts. One other example, which I have written about a number of times, is that it is ok according to simple pshat not to sleep in the sukka. Oh, I forgot also that washing for Shalosh Seudos is a kula al pi chassidus.

CS in reply to my question as to how the LR could claim that his father-in-law was Mashiach when his father-in-law wasn’t dor shevi’i, and Mashiach has to be from dor Shevi’i: “I don’t see where you got that. What I meant was that if Nesius would’ve ended with the Frierdiker Rebbe, there would have been no dor shvii as the dor goes by the Rebbe. Since we needed another Rebbe, that equals dor shvii”

Sounds like circular reasoning to me. The Rayatz could have been Mashiach, but since he wasn’t we need dor shevi’i to be Mashiach, and that just happens to be the LR who is the one who revealed the need for dor shevi’i.

Well done! Once again you have shown how we have no option but to declare the LR as Mashiach because he said so!

Arso,

I thought Lubavitch now holds that moshiach can come from the dead which is why I said Rav Shach

Sechel, the number of people who can quote the teachings of someone doesn’t indicate greatness. Far more people can quote teachings of Jesus – does that indicate greatness?

> learning gemoro and chassidus instead of looking after their children’s Yiddishkeit

We somehow got used to the word learning to signify “occupation” or a “chore” … instead of simply “learning”. If a lady shows interest in learning more in depth of mitzvos – that is what gemora is in the wider meaning – this should surely enhance her ability to look after her family yiddishkeit. It does not mean that she has to have a regular seder at the kollel, behind the mehitza or not.

I’d like to point out that if we go based on the reason the gemara(in bavli) gives, which is that women are מוציא דברי תורה לדברי הבאי, that it is our halachik responsibility to not do things which lead to bizayon hatorah. If a woman learns on her own – even according to those who allow it in din, is she not likewise responsible to not do something which will lead to bizayon hatorah? If she indeed is an exceptional woman, refined in mind and middos, like bruriah, then she, knowing herself and her capabilities, will not make Torah into divrei havai.

But if a woman is not on that level and she does so, maybe the men aren’t obligated to stop her, as their obligation would be just not to teach them and cause it by their actions, but the bizayon hatorah that the woman creates when she learns and turns Torah into divrei havai is fully, squarely on her shoulders. She has violated a grave sin in her study, not a mitzvah. And that’s the reason why the rambam says that a woman only has schar by torah she’biksav, and has no schar by torah shebaal peh, because he is referring to the vast majority of women who are incapable of such study and will perforce make divrei Torah into divrei havai.

That also leads us to another question – if most women were incapable of gemara study in the times of chazal, when people were purer and holier, to the point where they would make it divrei havai…. today’s women are any better? We’ve only dropped in our madregos since then.

And should it enter your mind to say that “todays women are smarter!” – that’s a prime example of divrei havai right there.

coffee addict: “I thought Lubavitch now holds that moshiach can come from the dead which is why I said Rav Shach”

Sorry, you clearly don’t understand official Lubavich policy. Please allow me to enlighten you.

1. Either the LR is alive, and Mashiach must be someone who is alive, hence the LR is Mashiach.

2. Alternatively, if the LR is not alive, then Mashiach must be him regardless.

There is no room for anyone else who has died to be Mashiach. In fact, there is no room for anyone else to be Mashiach, period.

And this is all based on clear non-existents sources.

Avirah: “If she indeed is an exceptional woman, refined in mind and middos, like bruriah, then she, knowing herself and her capabilities, will not make Torah into divrei havai.”

Is a woman to decide on her own that she will not turn Torah into divrei havai c”v? How can she decide that before she has learnt Torah and knows what the dangers are?

I would say the same thing about men (I’m feeling very woke at the moment) were it not for the fact that all Jewish men (I’m not quite feeling woke enough to say “all Jews who identify as men”.) are commanded to study Torah at all times. So that absolves them from judging themselves prior to learning Torah.

ARSo, that’s true. In fact, what people don’t realize is that the Rambam writes to be careful to whom you teach. People who won’t learn seriously can and do utilize the little they learn the wrong way.

And there’s always the problem that אדם קרוב אצל עצמו. How can any woman (again, men too, but they have a mitzva to learn regardless) judge herself favorably and say that she will learn and understand correctly, when she is noga’as bedavar?