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Sechel, R’ Shach did not consider the Lubavitcher Rebbe to be a Gadol. He actually referred to him as “the madman who sits in New York and drives the whole world crazy”.
He said that the statements he made regarding his father in law being God clothed in a human body, just like Moshe, as kefirah, and said that Chabad followers were just like the followers of Shabtai Tzvi. When the Lubavitcher Rebbe was sick, R’ Shach said that he davened for him to recover, and also to do teshuvah for the path he followed.
He already accused the Rebbe of being a Mashiach sheker in the 1970s.@sechel
How brainwashed one can be ?You quote that Rav Shach sent his talmid to the Rebbi of the Habad hasidim for an explanation in kabbala ?
It seems that facts and reality are totally irrelevant when it comes to propaganda ….NO ONE SANE WOULD ACCEPT SUCH TOTAL RUBBISH .
It seems that some habad hasidim , when discussing their own rebbi ,are taking leave of their senses .
Black is portrayed as white , white as black, and no one blinks an eyelid .Am wondering – Is it at all possible to have a normal give and take with people like that ?
@Arso
No , I dont think that having Meshugaas is an impediment to being a true oved hashem .
It maybe a corruption in hashkafa , and a waste and misdirection of energy, time and resources.
And it might have negative consequences and flow on effects .
But I would be dan them as a Shogeg [or even as a Ta’a bidvar Mitsva , who is patur of a korban if he is mistakenly aiming for osek bidvar mitsvah at the time of the averah action. [mishnah end of ch 19 in Shabbat]
Anyway I cannot ,and neither can any basar vadam, judge a person .
That is reserved for the Bor’ei Olam Himself [Rambam]@ DAMoshe
He already accused the Rebbe of being a Mashiach sheker in the 1970s.
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Correction – He accused him already in the sixties .
Heard in the name of Rav Matityahu Salamon zl that Rav Shach zl asked him [RMS] in the sixties to publicize this in his [RS] name .
Which he did .
In a closed semipublic forum.@CS
As to why it was “impossible” to end up this way- a) partly because there are sources also from the Rebbe about this generation going straight into chaim nitzchiim- So that does pose a seeming contradiction to Gimmel Tammuz- which is why the entire lubavitch refer to Gimmel Tammuz as such, and also why very few will say zia.But the main answer is that they were having bitachon that things wouldn’t end up this way.
[CS]
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THIS IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE .
I was alive then and followed EVERY PRONOUNCEMENT from 770 in real-time .
Including the articles by habad rabbanim and mashpi’im.
That was NOT the rationale .It was very simply – Based on the NORMATIVE JEWISH BELIEF that mashiach , ONCE HE STARTED could not die [in any shape or form] , otherwise he would be proven as Mashiach Sheker.
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You are just repeating PROPAGANDA .
And blindly so.
.Avira: “Did it occur to anyone that perhaps the hostages were released because their relatives davened to Hashem, and that He is a shomeah tefilah? Why make it into a Lubavitch centered thing?”
No way! It was clearly the Lubavicher rebbe!
And don’t believe what you read. In the latest edition of Mishpacha it says that Rabi David Abuchatzira had a 50 minute private meeting with the Argentinian president, and very soon afterwards the hostages were freed. Don’t they realize that it was all due to the LR?
sechel: “every other gadol considered the rebbe either THE GADOL or a gadal (even r shach”
Not true at all, unless, of course, you only consider someone as a gadol if he held of the Lubavicher rebbe. There were/are quite a number of gedolei Yisroel who did not hold of his greatness. And as to Rav Shach, I heard from someone close to him that Rav Shach asked for the LR’s mother’s name when the LR had the first stroke, and when the person he asked looked surprised, he said that although he does NOT agree with his shitos, he wants to daven for him because he has brought a lot of people back to Yiddishkeit.
Which is something I have said all along. If Lubavich stuck to disseminating real Torah, their kiruv work, and their Chabad Houses, no one would denigrate them. It’s their WRONGLY assuming the mantle of leaders of world Yiddishkeit, and of course the Mashiach meshigass, that we take issue with.
sechel: “how many sichos did you learn? how many maamarim? of the rebbe”
I learnt a few when I was younger, but once I saw where he was leading the oilem, I stopped, and I refuse to even look into one.
CS: “Arso- not that I doubt it- he actually just went to the trouble of photographing about 6 pages of scholarly research about the Rebbes yichus- but that I know it’s not about answers with you. So I’m glad that it is addressed in that sefer, and maybe some other time I’ll take it further.”
Sorry, but I have no idea what you are referring to, other than my claim that there is no proof that the LR is ben achar ben from Dovid Hamelech.
Although, I just realized the other day, that that is the least problem with claiming the LR is Mashiach, as perhaps he is indeed ben achar ben, even though we have no proof. Perhaps I am and perhaps your husband is. Who knows? But one thing is certain, the LR does NOT fit any of the other criteria cited by the Rambam!
One other thing that came to me, if the LR at any stage claimed his father-in-law was Mashiach, how does that fit in with the LR being the Mashiach because he is dor shevi’i?
CS: “you brought sources on the Rashi- (the Rashi itself merely lists the two kgons- shades of/ examples, and you’re deciding to read it like the interpretation that it means it can only be these two. Which I don’t have to do that. And even so, taking it further – it would seem even according to that- that that only applies to that very generation. So yes, there’s the Ramban, and yes there’s the explicit Gemara, The sdei chemed, abarbanel etc etc. And the Rebbe about his father in law which didn’t seem to be any issue before Gimmel Tammuz because I probably would have heard of it.”
Sorry, but you’re rambling here. I didn’t ‘decide to read it’ in any way. I translated the Rashi according to pshat, something I have been trying to do with every Rashi that I learn in Shas. You most definitely do have to translate it that way. As I wrote, ask a male who learns gemoro properly to be honest about the Rashi.
You yourself wrote last week that Rashi is not halacha lemaaseh. That is, you backtracked on your claim that we have to follow the Rashi who allows you to claim that a dead LR is Mashiach. Now are you backtracking on that backtrack? Please don’t tell us men, even if we are not the greatest talmidei chachomim, how to learn plain simple pshat in Rashi.
And what ‘explicit Gemara’. The one where the only Rishon I can find on it says that if it’s someone who has died it MUST BE Daniel?
You do realize after all this time that anything the LR said about the identity of Mashiach doesn’t have weight with all non-Lubavichers on this thread. So why do you keep quoting it TO US as some sort of proof.
Finally, even in the times of the Rayatz most of Klal Yisrael were against his Mashiach statements, such as Le’alter Lig’ula. So when the LR claimed that his shver was Mashiach it was just added to the discard pile.
CS: “Arso- regarding women learning Gemara. I’ve learned inside the Rebbes sichos to women myself (this one quoted in beginning of the black sefer hamitzvos divided by shiur) the opposite. So I’ll take that over your unnamed source.”
I know what I know, and that is something I know. And of course I won’t ask you for a source in a sicha because I don’t believe what it says there.
Finally, if the LR did indeed say taht women should learn gemoro even when it is not directly relevant to their performing mitzvos in which they are obligated, isn’t that going against explicit halacha?
Arso > quite a number of gedolei Yisroel who did not hold of his greatness.
in our divided times, I don’t think we need a consensus to consider someone a talmid chacham; too much machlokes going around. I would say, if 2-3 t.ch recognize another one, especially if he is not part of their particular group, that should be enough,
AlwaysAsk, I disagree. If there are 2-3 talmidei chachomim who recognize someone as a t”ch, but many others consider him close to an apikorus, someone who misleads, or a meshuggene, the 2-3 are not enough. Especially when the detractors are recognized gedolei olam.
CS,
After weeks of threads back and forth, it’s obvious that minds aren’t going to be changed, no matter how long this waste of time goes on.
The rest of Orthodox Jewry doesn’t for the most part hate chabad but views its unshakable belief that the Rebbe., zt”l is still mashiach, as mass delusion at best and outright heresy at worst. These views are not going to change no matter how many sichos are quoted and will only deteriorate as the decades pass.
ARSo, this might have worked when we had a Sanhedrin and T’Ch having direct discussions with each other. Look at later history – from Rambam to Chasidim, etc. A lot of T’Ch who said something new or unusual were controversial (Does not mean, of course, that any proposed change was reasonable).
So, if R Moshe, R Soloveichik, Lubavitcher Rebbe were mutually respectful is enough to consider all of them worthy respect. It does not mean that you have to agree with everything they, or others who claim to talk in their name, say, of course.
Totally agree with gadolhadofi
It’s no different than democrats arguing with republicans the other party is wrong and we’re right
CS… Very, very large groups of klal yisroel do not teach Torah shebaal peh to girls. Their numbers are far greater than Lubavitch. And they don’t tell girls that they’ll die for asking questions.
And wouldn’t you know it, just like everyone else who has problems, she was magically saved by your lord and savior. Have a problem ? Go to chabad. Are you a confused teenager struggling with normal challenges? Go to chabad, they’ll fix everything. Those fuddy duddy litvishe and chasidim are all close minded and don’t have our Lord and savior to guide them, and teach them how all of your problems will disappear if you talk to him and write him letters, which he sees because he’s everywhere; he’s actually the essence of god wrapped in a body, did you know that?
It’s a truly disgusting way of looking at the rest of klal yisroel, that we’re all broken and need your lord and savior for salvation.
There was another group who thought that way. Didn’t end very well.
Avira,
How dare you compare Lubavitch to notzrim! I don’t want to hear it! It’s all made up connections
Everyone knows that the Rebbe’s second coming will happen and J’s won’t because the Rebbe is Hashem in a body whereas J is only a son……
CS: Please do not lookup it Gemora, as the Shulchan Aruch, Rambam and virtually all the Rishonim and Achronim who rule on the subject pasken that girls/women learning Torah Shebal Peh leads to Tiflus, which Rashi explains is immorality. (Something we unfortunately see came all too true, in many of the communities that in recent decades disregarded this Halacha.)
And the psak from the Chofetz Chaim allowing a limited exception due to the fact that many females were going off the derech, specifically did not permit breaching the aforementioned Halacha in regards to teaching girls Mishnayos or Gemorah.
@CS
Whatever the excuse is re the position of “then habad”.
Are they Wrong or are they Right.
Thats NOT the issue at all .The issue is the following – and PLEASE stick to the argument this time .
Fact is that “Habad then” proclaimed LOUD AND CLEAR that mashiach is from living only .
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HOW DID THEY THEN EXPLAIN ALL THE MA’AMAREI HAZAL ???
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They knew all the abarbanels , all the rashi’s , all the sdei hemeds , all the sippurim of the friedreiker rebbi , all the merchandise you unpack everywhere , which allegedly is fire proof , bomb proof , impossible to argue with, etcetera. etcetera …….AND STILL DISCARDED ALL THOSE PROOFS .
All those litvishe , all those hasidi non habad who disagree with your pshatim , nu , they are not habad , what do they know about discovering the right pshat in hazal ?
But habad , those people who do know the right pshat in ma’amarei hazal , and do not err just because it “happens” to suit their propaganda objective at this given time , THEY DISCARDED ALL THOSE PROOFS,
How can you ignore all THEIR way of learning those ma’amarei hazal ?
Or , Phrased in another way – If you, CS, would be put in a ‘time machine’ , transported to the 1990 – 1994 era , and would be commenting on these pages , would you ‘explain’ those hazal like the shitah of ‘then habad’ or like you do now ?
My ‘educated guess’ is – lke the shitah of ‘then habad’ ….
So do you realize that you LOST all trust about understanding the REAL pshat in hazal , and memeila all trust in general ???
CS: “It’s been some time since I looked up that Gemara. I had remembered…”
Some intellectual honesty and, it seems (I hope I’m correct), an admission that Rashi cannot be brought to show that according to that gemoro (notwithstanding anything else) the LR who has died can be Mashiach.
“Dor Shvii only happened because as the Rebbetzin told the Rebbe…”
So dor shevi’i is only something made up to suit the circumstances. Which is the type of ‘proof’ or argument that we have been disputing all along.
“Isn’t it a tad ridiculous to expect me to trust you’re know what you know, and completely disregard an open printed statement of the Rebbe when you’re talking about what the Rebbe said??”
It would be more than a tad ridiculous, but I’m not asking you to trust me in this case. Just to hear my claim, by which I still stand.
And just for the record, coffee-addict, I loved your response!
For those stopping CS from checking out a gemora, I hesitate to revisit the women/Torah debate, but I see several sources that we might have not discussed before. The new chiluk here is the difference between wholesale teaching to everyone v. those who are eager to learn on their own. Maybe someone could look these sources to see if the mention written/oral Torah difference. But if in our generation, teaching written Torah is accepted for everyone, then, there should be some other level accessible to those women who are eager and capable.
.Rav Shach zt”l writes similarly that the restriction against Torah study for women does not apply to self-study, and the concept is already noted by the Maharil (Shut Maharil Ha-Chadashos 45): “[This refers] specifically to somebody who teaches his daughter. But if she teaches herself she receives reward for it – as somebody not commanded in the mitzvah – for her intention is for the good.”
Chida (Tov Ayin 4), explaining that it is permitted to teach a woman who has proven herself as having true intent of Torah study.
Rabbi Shmuel (ben Elchanan Yaakov) Archivolti of Padua (1515–1611) writes that women with suitable intellectual abilities are not only permitted to study Torah, but are even obligated to do so:
“When a woman is ready to receive an abundance of wisdom, neglect will harm her, and […] we can differ, saying that the sages of blessed memory spoke only of a father teaching his daughter in her childhood. … There one might fear because most women’s minds are consumed with nonsense. But women whose hearts urge them to Hashem’s service of their own will shall ascend G-d’s mountain and live in His holy place, for they are outstanding women, and the sages of the generation must glorify, exalt and sustain them, encourage and strengthen them … and Torah shall go forth from their mouths” (Maa’yan Gannim, letter 10; quoted in Torah Temimah on Devarim 11).
It should be noted that Sarah Schenirer learned Gemara every day, as part of a daily seder she had.
Da, assuming that’s true(evidence?) did she believe in her students doing so? Absolutely not! Halacha is clear that teaching most girls gemara is forbidden. There’s no machlokes rishonim. It goes from the gemara, to the rishonim, to the shulchan aruch and noseo keilim without one dissenting view.
Until MO and its feminism. Assur gamur! Some achronim – some – say tha5 exceptional women can learn it. But who says we pasken like that?
Avira, there is an excellent article by R’ Jachter which goes through the different opinions on whether women can learn Gemara. Not sure the mods will allow the link: https://www.koltorah .org/halachah/are-women-permitted-to-study-gemara-by-rabbi-howard-jachter?format=amp
In the event they don’t, just search for Jachter can women learn Gemara.Avira, as for proof about Sara Schenirer learning Gemara, it’s something I’ve read on numerous bios of her. In her diaries, she wrote that she learned the daily Chok l’Yisrael seder. Chok l’Yisrael contains Chumash, Navi, Mishnayos, and Gemara. I found it interesting that in some of the more yeshivish bios where I read this, they removed Gemara when explaining what Chok l’Yisrael is.
In R’ Jachter’s article (which I linked to above – thanks Mods!), he notes that the prohibition, according to many, is to force women to learn Mishna or Gemara. If they choose to learn it on their own, there is no problem. See the Torah Temimah on Devarim 11:19. Also, R’ Chaim Dovid haLevi quotes the Chida as having this view, and R’ Henkin said that this views explains how there were so many women who were very learned, from Bruriah all the way to modern times – he names the wife of R’ Isser Zalman Meltzer.
There is disagreement on the issue, so each should follow their own posek.finally another topic, good point differnent opinions if women can learn gemarah. so too there are differnt opinions if moshiach can be from the dead. and differnt opinions if you can shave your beard and if you need to sleep in the suckah if its too big of a shlep to bring your bed there. and if one can be yotze shalosh seudos with fruits or you need to wash. or if you can eat before davening. all have diffeerent opinions, for some reason some call others kofrim if they hold like the other opinion?!
@yankel moshe and damoshe: i posted the storah on this thread if you can read hebrew. yes rav shach sent a talmid who had a question in kabala to the rebbe. the letter and the name of the talmid is there.
you know r’ shach was againsts shaving, he said buchurim and kolel yungerleit should be learning at least 2 blatt a week instead of hacking in lomdus. many things, why do people focus of one argument?Da, learning on their own is a different discussion. But teaching them in classrooms is clearly, universally forbidden.
Maybe sara schnirer did – i have no idea. Maybe she skipped those parts of the Chok; does it really make a difference? She never taught gemara or mishnayos to her talmidos, nor did she instruct her trained teachers to do so either. It’s not really an important issue.
And there were very, very few women who learned Torah throughout history. You can count them on one hand. The idea that it’s something women should aspire to when it was a very, very rare phenomenon that always accompanied intense spiritual devotion and impeccable tznius, has nothing to do with today’s women who want to learn gemara because “we can do it too” while wearing short sleeve and not covering their hair.
Avira, incorrect. It would seem that according to many, making Gemara a required course for women would be forbidden, but making it an elective, that women could choose on their own to take, would be allowed. That is how some schools have it. I don’t know of any Jewish girls schools that require their students to attend a class on Gemara.
Seems like there is a concensus here on ladies who want to learn v general curriculum. As to how many are there, it is undeniable that today’s women, as well as men, are more educated and have access to more information, than before, so it is not surprising that there are more of those. If you look at historical examples, they were typically daughters and wives of talmidei chachamim, not daughters of rich people,
I wonder what is the peshat for the son to listen to the torat imecha on addition to mussar avicha. First, it means ima has that torah…it is also oral torah as it is shma, not koreh…
probably got it from her mother or learned on her own as the father would be asur to teach, many darshin like that.
Also, if the son needs to listen to that, Kal vahomer the daughter? So we can have oral tradition by the women..
Maybe they didn’t write it down yet?@CS
@sechel
I know for a fact the Rav Shach considered the Rebbi of Habad a heretic , At least that’s what he stated in public .
I happen to know because a close relative who I would trust blindly, was there and heard it from his mouth personally .
Maybe RS exaggerated for a tsorech , so that his talmidim should stay away from him [permitted according to Hafets Haim]
Or maybe not .
Either way he would not send any of his talmidim to habad for kabala explanations.
That much is clear .
Clear as day.
As clear as the fact that Habad itself unanimously advocated [pre 94] that M is from the living only …@sechel
re story about Rav Shach sending his talmid to the Rebbi of the Habad hasidim for kabala…A sheker in hebrew is not any less of a sheker because it is in Hebrew .
Anyone who knew Rav Shach , knows that this is sheker .
It’s not the first sheker and probably not the last either.
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