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Reb yeruchem from the mir wrote a letter in support. [of neohabads leaders tfillin campaign]
According to sechel.
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Lol.
Maybe sechel has a special postal service connecting him with Yeshiva Shel Ma’ala …….
.sechel: Arso being mekarev yidden. See keser shem tov, see seforim hakdoahim – full of it.
Can you supply some quotes, please?
And according to you it’s new, so…. Internet it also new, shaitels are also new, yeshiva movement is also new, brisker derech halimud is also new
My problem was never that it’s new. Rather, my problem is your claim that this is the correct way of acting now, and that it’s based on Chazal, Poskim and Chassidus. So my question stands: if that is the case, why was it not done before the advent of mivtzoim?
now that you know that when you go to your relatives you may see something not tznius, did you stop going?
You don’t read carefully, and/or pay attention to what others say, do you? BH my Lubavich relatives are basically tzniusdik in dress, although they are lacking in other areas of tznius (e.g. gender mixing), and I never even insinuated that the terrible lack of tznius that I have witnessed be’oness was caused by them. It was other fully-committed sheitel wearing Lubavichers who caused shock when I inadvertently came across them.
Reb yeruchem from the mir wrote a letter in support [or mivtza tefillin].
I see now that the Lubavicher rebbe is not the only one who cheated the Mal’ach Hamoves! According to all known sources, Reb Yeruchem of Mir was niftar in 5696 (1936), but if he wrote a letter supporting mivtza tefillin, which began over 30 years later, then obviously he didn’t die either.
Somehow ponovitch and satmer had success thru their massive advertising campaigns to convince dumb people who are too stupid to research facts, that all the gedolim were always against chabad or at least since the rebbe or the frierdiker rebbe.
That’s fresh! The biggest advertiser and propagandist in the (so-called) frum world is Lubavich, and you’re blaming others for advertising. I don’t know about Satmar, but I have never heard of any advertising done by Ponevich.
Also, don’t fool yourself. Nearly all the gedolim were against Lubavich in their ‘push’ for Mashiach (started by the Rayatz) and many of Lubavich’s other aspects. Just that for a number of reasons they decided not to voice their opposition publicly outside their own circles.
@sechel
What is the mekor for hbad people to daven shm’essrei shaharit on shabbat afternoon . Why are they not brahot levatala ?The yesod of having a logical and productive vikuach is one extremely important nekuda – Without that there is no vikuach possible.
Both sides have to agree on some ‘Muskamot’. They have to have a common starting point where they jointly agree on and the argument can start from that point onwards whereby both sides bring and dispute proofs , BROUGHT FROM THEIR COMMOM AREA OF AGREEMENT .
Why am I mentioning this now ?
Happened to meet an old habad acquaintance on the street , and will quote him here :In habad now , whenever our rebbi quotes a tanna or amora or a rishon or a posek , it is not as if our rebbi needs the backup of these holy people. It is more like those holy people received back up from our rebbi that they were zoche that he quoted them ….
It is very important that this remark sinks in , in my opinion.
We should reflect very carefully on this.This encapsulates , in very few words , where The Schism [as I call it] is happening.
It used to be that any mahloket in klal yisrael was bridgeable . You could always go back to some earlier jointly respected authority and based on it, argue it out, the classic way .
Proofs , counterproofs and rejoinders.Only because and as long as this authority is jointly revered in a similar way. Coupled with the hakarah that both sides DERIVE THEIR LEGITIMACY from that jointly recognized authority.
After reflection about the above quote, sadly , that joint hakarah that ALL LEGITIMACY IS DERIVED FROM our joint holy rebbeim [From Moshe Rabenu , torah shebiktav and torah shebaal peh coupled with our mesorah] thru the ages, is not here anymore.
If the habad rebbi does not need and does not derive his legitimacy from all those previous sources , and it is the opposite , he does those sources a ‘favor’ by quoting them , then how is ever possible to debate habads position in light of those sources ?
In every argument with habad, I sense this point as lurking in the background even when it is unspoken.
I think this a common denominator in many habad people.Please correct me if I am mistaken.
.yb, I agree with you wholeheartedly, but, as I have written in the past, I am not arguing with CS or sechel in order to get them to change their minds and admit that their rebbe was/is not Mashiach, a Navi or the Nassi Hador. That will probably never happen… unfortunately.
What I want is for them to realise that the only leg they have to stand on for these claims is that the LR claimed all these great titles for himself, and that the rest of the world finds it all ridiculous. Then, hopefully, they will stop trying to convince the outside world how mistaken they are in not recognizing the LR for the apex of Creation that they believe he is.
If they want to believe all the garbage, there’s nothing I can do about it. But leave the rest of us (hopefully normal) people alone.
Sorry mistake . It was rav chaim shmulevitz (printed in hapardes 5728) also the gerer rebbe wrote a letter there.
So typical of you guys, I wrote there was a letter from agudas harabbanim of usa and Canada. A letter from Reb Moshe encouraging all the mivtzoim in 5738, and you guys found one mistake I made.
Ok I made a mistake. I admit.
Yated naaman printed tons of progeganda against chabad i.e. misquoting sichos (which can be looked up today, take the articles and look up the sichos) and based on that showing how chabad doesn’t hold of certain halachos.
(And btw they write that שלמות הארץ even though the rebbe based it on a halacha in shulchan aruch siman שכט, really it’s just ציונות, nice pshat, but anyone who learns the sichos knows the rebbe was against ציונות, there are many sichos about it, there is a Sefer מענת חכם explaining chabads shita etc,,
Another famous thing you quote is about Sukkah the hater is were mitztayer that were not mitztayer that were not mitztayer,
I think it comes from the yated.
In truth the rebbe says only once מצטער.)
(And the sicha is only to explain how Kabalah and halacha can fit together, not that based on this we don’t sleep in the suckah, learn the sicha inside. Chabad didn’t sleep in the suckah since the alter rebbe, didn’t eat shalosh seudos either. The rebbe just came to explain how it fits with halacha. (You see in the alter rebbes shulchan aruch many times how he’s מלמד זכות on a minhag)Ujm when I go on mivtzoim I tell him it’s a commandment fro. Hashem, there is letters back and forth about this from rav hunter to the rebbe, you can see for yourself. Anyway as I mentioned מבצע תפילין was indorced by all the gedolim. Rav Moshe etc.
Avirah. The modern yeshivish also consider themselves yeshivish, and who cares, what are labels?
The rebbe said everyone should be involved in shlichus, you don’t need to where a frak to go on shlichus, there are shluchim with bekeshes and shtraimels.
As I said before the alter rebbe said chassidus is for every jew. You can learn chassidus, learn Chitas and rambam, do mivtzoim, go to the ohel, go to 770, and not consider yourself chabad, you can also do none of the above and daven nusach achkenas, and consider yourself chabad. I won’t have an issue, nor does the rebbe or anyone else.
I guess according to you the yeshivish are very concerned about their image, so anyone who doesn’t fit their box they label them modern, in chabad we don’t care .
Btw visiting the yeshiva world news and writing on this coffee room, is against all the litvish gedolim and rabbonim,What is the mekor for hbad people to daven shm’essrei shaharit on shabbat afternoon . Why are they not brahot levatala
One source is today’s rambam hilchos tefillah see the ראבד
See also צמח צדק הלכות ציצית about if women can make a bracha on a mitzvah they are not obligated (it’s a long teshuvah and talks about making brachos if one is not obligated)
Many more sources and it’s not only chabad, look in piskai tshuvos,One of the reasons for davening late is because by davening a person needs to have kavanah he is standing before hashem and talking to him (reb chaim brisker writes that if not, it’s not davening at all) that’s why in shulchan aruch it says you need to forget about everything before you daven, and many other hachanos stated there.
Who says one should skip all the hachanos, and just say words with minimal kavanah in order to beet chatzos? It can be not even considered davening.
It actually says in shulchan aruch if one can’t have kavanah he should not daven@Yankel berel what one chabad fellow answered you does not represent chabads view.
Now for me I don’t doubt what the rebbe says just like any Talmud should not be doubting his teacher. If one thinks he has a kashya he should ask his teacher, or try to figure out the answer other ways , but not dismiss dis teacher – who knows endless times more than him (the rebbe) just because in the students mind he has a kashe. It just means he didn’t correctly understand either the place he has the kasha from or the teacher.sechel: Another famous thing you quote is about Sukkah the hater is were mitztayer that were not mitztayer that were not mitztayer,
I think it comes from the yated.
In truth the rebbe says only once מצטער.)I did not get it from Yated. I heard it from Lubavichers who think that it’s an amazing chidush al pi nigleh. (The fact that it makes no sense means nothing to Lubavichers, as since their rebbe said it al pi nigleh, it must be right.)
So according to you, what is the heter al pi nigleh?
Btw, as a favor to me, please check your spelling and punctuation. I’m guessing that you went through the yeshivah system, and didn’t do much English. That’s fine with me. It’s just that it took me a while to figure out what “the hater is were mitztayer that were not mitztayer that were not mitztayer” meant.
I guess according to you the yeshivish are very concerned about their image…
No idea – and I don’t care – because I’m not yeshivish.
Chabad didn’t sleep in the suckah since the alter rebbe, didn’t eat shalosh seudos either.
Sorry, but I don’t believe that. I knew Russian Lubavichers aleihem haShalom who slept in the sukkah until they heard the news that Lubavichers don’t. They also ate Shalosh Seudos. There is a lot of revisionist history in Lubavich, as I have claimed a number of times in regards to the Memoirs of the Rayatz.
sechel: One source is today’s rambam hilchos tefillah see the ראבד
All of a sudden we ignore Rav Shulchan Aruch who writes clearly that one has to daven lechatchilah before zeman tefillah, and bedieved before chatzos?! Since when does a statement in the Rambam (and I don’t even know what you’re referring to) override the Baal Hatanya?
See also צמח צדק הלכות ציצית about if women can make a bracha on a mitzvah they are not obligated (it’s a long teshuvah and talks about making brachos if one is not obligated)
Totally irrelevant. Not being obligated in a mitzva does not make it a berachah levatalah. Davening after chatzos does. Check it out.
Btw, yb, why davka Shabbos afternoon? In 770 there are people who daven long long after chatzos even during weekdays.
@sechel
Typical habad misinformation. Again.
You drop a few mar’ei mekomot and that suffices .
THERE IS NO HETER TO SAY SHAHARIT SHM”E on shabbat afternoon . No heter whatsoever. They are all clear and unambiguous brahot levatalah .No Piskei Tshuvot . And no r chaim brisker .
The comparison to tsemah tsedeq re women’s braha is simply ludicrous.
Sechel doesnt even want to quote the rambam where supposedly its mutar . Today’s Rambam ….
.@Arso
I understand you. The point I am making is for all the non habad people .
We, the non habad , do not realise how far removed their theology is from mainstream Orthodoxy, Notwithstanding all their positive personal qualities , and they are many.I am afraid .
Afraid of a Schism opening up , potentially dividing klal yisrael . Slowly slowly .
As more and more young habad people are born , who never met their flesh and blood rebbi.
A human person, however dedicated to his cause , still with human failings and strengths , just like all the rest of us.
Young kids, Innocent and indoctrinated with all those types of garbage ,utterly convinced of this garbage being the foundations of yahadut.
Who in turn are going to be the educators of their next generation .This story is not finished yet. It is still evolving.
We – the non habad people – have to be cognizant of what’s really going on , right in front of our noses.
That’s the challenge here , in my humble opinion at least.
.“Who says one should skip all the hachanos, and just say words with minimal kavanah in order to beet chatzos? It can be not even considered davening.”
After chatzos it’s the afternoon. It’s no longer shacharis, and one cannot daven minchah until half an hour (shaaos zmanios) after chatzos. So it’s stam a bracha levatalah.
“Minimal” kavanah is defined as knowing the words to the first bracha of shemoney esrei.
“It actually says in shulchan aruch if one can’t have kavanah he should not daven”
It says not to daven over again if you didn’t have kavanah by the first bracha, because maybe you won’t have kavanah the second time either, but it does say to continue and have kavanah at least by modim, because some hold that modim is the bracha that’s mea’kev for kavanah
It does NOT say that one shouldn’t daven unless they have total kavanah for the whole or even most of shemoney esrei. The steipler writes that one who knows Hebrew basically always has basic kavanah because they know wbat they’re hearing when they aay the words, even if it’s by rote.
Rw, rav chaim and being omed lifnei hamelech – rav chaim is a daas yochid on this issue and in brisk they indeed are makpid, and daven a fast shemoneh esrei to maintain this kavanah.
They also will always be makpid to daven shacharis in time to make brachos krias shma within the zman krias shema, as is commonly taught in yeshivos.
@arso regarding Sukkah you can open a shulchan aruch see the magen Abraham and Taz, one of them say that someone who can’t set up his bed comfortably in a Sukkah is puter and if he sleeps even if he’s patur – he’s a hadyot – idiot in English. The magen Abraham says that there is a heter for married men never to sleep in the Sukkah.
Now the question of sicha is a different question, you can see there at length, I don’t want you to misunderstand it from me like you did from your relatives, (could be your relatives misquoted it) but the amazing chidush is not the rebbe’s it’s from the rogetshover
Anyway the fact that you know some people who slept in the Sukkah is like saying you know some chabadskers who keep or don’t keep tznius, just cuz some people do something it doesn’t make it minhag chabad.
The frierdiker rebbe is the best source of history we have. Chas vishalom to speak against a tzadik yesod olem. Besides for the fact that he didn’t sleep in a Sukkah, and he was born 5640 less than 70 yrs from the alter rebbes passing 5573. He heard history from hIs grandmother. And there were many chassidim alive both by the alter rebbe and the frierdiker rebbe.
I didn’t say the rambam or tzemach tzedek says it’s ok to daven shachris lichatchila after chatzos, If you check up those sources you’ll see it’s not a bracha livatala. Open up the tzemach tzedek and learn something for your life.
In piskai tshuvos he clearly brings other rebbe’s who davened after chatzos.
The alter rebbe is shulchan aruch paskens you can not daven shachris after chatzos, but in his igros he paskens different he says tefillin is מן התורה not like in shulchan aruch where he says it’s דרבנן,
It’s a long arichus, do your research.
Of course after you guys have nother to answer about tefillin and tznius etc etc, you pick something else.
Why do you guys attack chabad based on what you heard from your relatives? Even thought of first seeing the sicha inside?@avirah. We don’t need to follow the steipler or brisk
It’s not a bracha livatala, that’s am haaratzus, see the Mishnah brurah, he writes it’s a bracha livatala according to many poskim, others argue. See tzemach tzedek I mentioned before
The rambam says someone can daven a tefillah nedavah anytime, the raaved writes he doesn’t need to add anything.
See piskai tshuvos he brings many rebbe’s who davened late, even though he says it’s not for the public, many disagree, and it has its base in halacha as mentioned, and just like those rebbe’s did – amshanov, klosenberg rebbe’s daven shachris after chatzos, the Baal hatanya did too. And in chabad it’s the mesorah since then much has been written how it’s ok.Sechel, who mentioned the steipler? And yes, you don’t need to follow brisk, so please don’t mention rav chaims shitah about kavanah as a way to undermine the importance of zmanim when brisk holds very, very much of zmanei tefilah.
Re, other rebbss davening late; that is correct, and tefilas nedava is only half of the answer you’re reaching for, which is the shtikel torah of rav Meir shapiro, who said that a rebbe is chazal’s “toraso umnaso,” who is patur from tefilah. Any tefilah they perform is a tefilas nedava, which does not require the zman lf shachris, mincha or maariv.
That has nothing to do with other people besides the rebbe.
Shabbat there is no tfillat nedava.
Shm’E Shaharit in the afternoon on Shabat is a levatala
LEHOL HADEI’OT
.
@arso
Weekday there is nedava
Shabat not.sechel, Shmoneh Esrei can be a tefillas nedavah, but birkos Krias Shema after chatzos can’t, and that makes them a berachah levatalah.
(I apologize if this post already went through, but something happened to my computer and I’m not sure it did.)
sechel, Shmoneh Esrei can be a tefillas nedavah, but Birkos Krias Shema can’t, and if they are said after chatzos it’s a berachah levatalah.
As to being a hedyot (not an idiot!) when sleeping in the sukkah when you are pattur, the same is true of eating in the sukkah when it is raining, yet Lubavichers do so, and with a berachah!
sechel, I forgot a very important point in regards to your claim about tefillas nedavah. A tefillas nedavah cannot be said on Shabbos!
Open up the tzemach tzedek and learn something for your life. he goes thrue shitos over there about saying a bracha when you are not obligated in it. many hold its not an issue cuz you are prasing hashem.
In piskai tshuvos he clearly brings other rebbe’s who davened after chatzos. we have a mesorah, not with reb meir shapiros pshat also these rebbes davened late also shabbos, so obviously they didn’t do it becasue of reb meir shapiros pshat
The alter rebbe is shulchan aruch paskens you can not daven shachris after chatzos, but in his igros he paskens different he says tefillin is מן התורה not like in shulchan aruch where he says it’s דרבנן, see shulchan aruch harav siman 106 how that can allow one to daven at any time.
we are allowed to accept reb chayims pshat in rambam about kavana, (if its pshat in rambam then its shitas harambam, anyway this idea of davening without kavana is not davening is not only from reb chayim) and not brisks minhagim,
@arso As to being a hedyot (not an idiot!) when sleeping in the sukkah when you are pattur, the same is true of eating in the sukkah when it is raining, yet Lubavichers do so, and with a berachah!
good point! so? (thats one of the questions of the sicha, why was the frierdiker rebbe so machmir about drinking water even when raining, and not sleeping) go learn the sicha. eating when raining comes from the baal shem tov.sechel as a matter of policy does not give exact marei mekomot for his arguments .
Is it because he is afraid we will look it up and expose him ?
.מ”מ
שו”ת צמח צדק או”ח סימן ג
פסקי תשובות סימן פט
I didn’t write the מ”מ before because I was writing from memory and did not have a chance to check it up
Piskai tshuvos I can’t find the Sefer to reference the exact page.When chazal say כל מי שהוא פטור מדבר ועושהו נקרא הדיוט.
It means idiot, הדיוט comes from a Greek word. Here we see this idea from the rambam, he says שוטה and quotes this חז”ל about הדיוטחסיד שוטה – אמרו בתלמוד שעניינו ההגזמה בזהירות ובדקדוק עד שנמאס בעיני בני אדם ועושה מעשים שאינו חייב בהם, וכאילו אמר שוטה בחסידותו. ואמרו בגמרא שבת ירושלמי: כל מי שהוא פטור מדבר ועושהו נקרא הדיוט.
— פירוש המשניות סוטה פרק ג’, משנה ג
Kosher and happy pesachAvira, in fairness, I know of some very big Rebbes/Tazadikim who made their minyan (i.e. at least 9 people besides themselves) very much outside the normative zmanim.
Ujm, you’re correct. There’s an idea of chasidim being ‘farbunden” with the rebbeh; if he’s doing it, they can too. But this would certainly not apply to a deceased person who no longer is davening.
sechel, what are you trying to prove with the Tzemach Tzedek?
Also, if you insist that Hedyot means idiot, then what is meant by a Kohein Hedyot – a regular kohein? The word idiot may indeed come from the Greek equivalent, but when it’s used by Chazal it doesn’t mean idiot.
Avirah,
שפתיים דובבות בקבר
Looked up Tsemah Tsedeq OC:3 . Its quite long. So I did not learn every word of it. But I learnt most of it and skimmed through the rest.
Please – can you pinpoint EXACTLY which piece of T’T you ,and all after hatsot daveners, rely on to say birhat kr’sh and shm’e after hatsot ?
And ,if he doesn’t say it clearly , what logic you are following to reach your maskana ?And if you could tell me all that , without any denigration , that would be even more appreciated . Thanks.
@sechel
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Happened to meet an old habad acquaintance on the street , and will quote him here :In habad now , whenever our rebbi quotes a tanna or amora or a rishon or a posek , it is not as if our rebbi needs the backup of these holy people. It is more like those holy people received back up from our rebbi that they were zoche that he quoted them ….
[yb to sechel]
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….. what one chabad fellow answered you ,does not represent chabads view …..[sechel to yb]
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Rewind some 40 odd years .
Had a similar type of conversation with a reasonable habad person about the prevalence of habad hasidim attributing messiahship to their rebbi.
I quoted him what I heard from an individual ,serious habad person whom I met on the street.
“Our rebbi is the greatest of not only our generation but of all preceding generations and he really is mashiach .”Our reasonable habad person told me many documented incidents where their rebbi himself reacted with anger and disapproval upon those type mashiach proclamations and that the above is only the result of the hallucinary imaginations of those crazy yehidim and for sure not representative of the habad movement as a whole and that every movement has its share of crazies.
It was only those so called ‘haters’ of habad who anyway had an agenda against habad ,who chose to represent the crazies as legit habad spokespeople.
I was younger and more naive at that time and swallowed it , accepted it .
This was not one personal story .
This was emblematic.
This type of conversation was going on in many forms and ways , on the pages of newspapers , in informal mikva’ot discussions , in shtiblah and around the shalom zahor tables ….Many people were taken by this and swallowed it hook, line and sinker.
Va’ani hakatan, betoham.We all know, now, with the benefit of hindsight , who really represented habad ….
And whether it is naive to be taken by that type of answer….Once burnt , second time …..
Leave it to the Lubavitcher to “revive a dead thread” 😜
@CS
For YB: firstly, you said what I quoted in perek 32 Tanya about an apikores was incorrect. I wrote it in English, here’s the original:
וּמַה שֶּׁכָּתוּב בַּגְּמָרָא, שֶׁמִּי שֶׁרוֹאֶה בַּחֲבֵירוֹ שֶׁחָטָא – מִצְוָה לִשְׂנֹאותוֹ, וְגַם לוֹמַר לְרַבּוֹ שֶׁיִּשְׂנָאֵהוּ.
הַיְינוּ – בַּחֲבֵירוֹ בְּתוֹרָה וּמִצְוֹת,
וּכְבָר קִיֵּים בּוֹ מִצְוַת “הוֹכֵחַ תּוֹכִיחַ אֶת עֲמִיתֶךָ” – עַם שֶׁאִתְּךָ בְּתוֹרָה וּבְמִצְוֹת, וְאַף־עַל־פִּי־כֵן לֹא שָׁב מֵחֶטְאוֹ, כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב בְּסֵפֶר חֲרֵדִים.
[CS to YB]
———————————
You are omitting the crucial part of Tanya which I quoted-
After he says that one is obligated to simultaneously love and hate someone who is a sinner , Tanya goes on to ask on himself if so whats pshat in tahlit sin’ah seneitim which is quoted in masehta shabbat as requiring unqualified hate ?
Whereupon Tanya answers that this pasuk and maamar hazal are talking about an apikores who one is required to hate unreservedly.
—————————–@CS
Also, I was learning kuntres Beis Rabbeinu Shebivavel, which I’ll assume you know how to find, and there was a sdei chemed in one of the footnotes saying that many yidden throughout history thought their Rebbi was Moshiach including the Arizals Talmidim. I thought you would find that interesting so I’m noting here.
[Cs to yb]
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As usual this is nothing more than a diversionary answer.
NONE ,and I repeat none ,of the above PROMOTED their rebbi as mashiach .
PROMOTION of their leader as mashiach is a recent habad invention , never practiced by any group in Judaism, anywhere on the globe .
With the noted exception of Natan HaAzati and his despicable followers re the failed and discredited false mashiach shabtai tzvi .Thats exactly where the ‘fault lines’ between new habad and mainstream 3 thousand year old Judaism run .
We are happy to be mekabel pnei mashiach when HKBH deems it right to send him.
That was and still is the default position of klal yisraels rebeim and forefathers from time immemorial.
And klal yisrael across all its varied spiritual manhigim and various components does not seem to be inclined to give up on that time hallowed position so fast. Like they are not changing other parts of our holy mesorah.Arso > The word idiot may indeed come from the Greek equivalent, but when it’s used by Chazal it doesn’t mean idiot.
Greek idiots seems to be similar to Hebrew amei haaretz – citizens, but not being active in politics and possibly lacking manners. So kohen idiot was proper greek borrowing.
Moving to Latin, it was more on uneducated and lacking derech eretz, and French & English made idiots what they are today.
Btw do NOT google for kohen idiot, it brings up a non-kosher witness at a current trial, R’L
sechel > Who says one should skip all the hachanos, and just say words with minimal kavanah in order to beet chatzos?
Beating chatzos does not sound like a high bar, and I don’t mean beet salad bar. But by that thinking, why not wait till tomorrow,
maybe you’ll have a better kavona then? I would rather accept an explanation that Chabad House visitors will be more comfortable waking up late or that a town needs a late minyan for anyone whose kavona woke up by chatzos or has a hangover. Or, as one Chabadnik told me (he started before hatzos but dragged the process well past) – “who knows where are these guys are going to go if I don’t keep them here.”“After he says that one is obligated to simultaneously love and hate someone who is a sinner , Tanya goes on to ask on himself if so whats pshat in tahlit sin’ah seneitim which is quoted in masehta shabbat as requiring unqualified hate ?
Whereupon Tanya answers that this pasuk and maamar hazal are talking about an apikores who one is required to hate unreservedly.”
Complete distortion. He is explaining dovid hamelechs behavior, not giving guidance to people who can every jew who does something different than them an apikores or min.
Even if you want to follow dovid hamelechs ways, it’s only for minim and apikorsim, go open up a shulchan aruch and he what classifies as that, and again the chafetz chaim says I doesn’t apply to today’s Jews, as well as the rambam and chazon ish .See Shulchan aruch yore deah 159,3 it’s asur to lend money to a Jew who was born to parents serving a”z. Mother serves a”z, married a non jew. He’s a tinok shenishba.
See מרגניתא טבא brought in chafetz chaim back of אהבת חסד, he writes since no one today knows how to rebuke properly, and you can only hate a rasha after you rebukes him, comes out you can NOT hate anyone.@CS and Sechel
“After he says that one is obligated to simultaneously love and hate someone who is a sinner , Tanya goes on to ask on himself if so whats pshat in tahlit sin’ah seneitim which is quoted in masehta shabbat as requiring unqualified hate ?
Whereupon Tanya answers that this pasuk and maamar hazal are talking about an apikores who one is required to hate unreservedly.”
[yb to CS]Complete distortion. He is explaining dovid hamelechs behavior, not giving guidance to people who can every jew who does something different than them an apikores or min.
[sechel to yb]
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Correct .
Sechels ‘explanation’ [think its not his – rather its his leaders] is a COMPLETE DISTORTION .
Nowhere in this perek does Tanya talk about Dovid.
Simple pshat .
He starts of with any yehudi.
Any yehudi’s obligation re love [or hate] towards other yehudim .
Again – OUR obligation toward our fellow yehudim.
Tanya delineates OUR obligation towards sinners.
He says it should be a mixture of love and hate.
Tanya asks on said statement , which was re OUR obligation towards sinners – which consists of said mixture of love and hate : How come Dovid hamelech says tahlit sin’ah [and gm ms Shabbat uses this to OBLIGATE US] with hate and no love.
So we have a contradiction whether the correct approach FOR US is a] mixture or b] hate only.
A contradiction regarding which approach WE – US should be taking.
Whereupon Tanya answers – if he is an apikores then the approach FOR US is – hate only
if he is not an apikores , just a sinner , then the approach FOR US is a mixture of love and hate.Any neutral reader of the above . Please learn Tanya slowly for yourself , It is PLAIN and OBVIOUS.
Addition:
If sechel would be correct , why doesn’t Tanya answer simply ?
Hate only – thats for Dovid only
Mixture – thats for us.Why does he need to differntiate between apikorsim and other sinners ?
@sechel
have not received an answer yet
what is the heter to say birhat kr’sh and shm’esre shabbat after hatsot ?
why is this not a braha levatala ?question is not whether one could / should daven before hatstot with less kavana
if he cannot daven before hatsot for whatever reason- he should not daven at allplease don’t just ‘drop’ marei mekomot .
pl . Explain yourself , with clear logic.Th.
.@Yankel berel you’re Tanya comment I didn’t understand,
Birchos krias shma and shmone esre – see Mishnah brurah where he says it’s a bracha livatala, he writes according to many poskim, the other poskim hold it’s not, see there biur halacha. (As if chabad is the only ones who daven after chatzos, I think the only people who don’t is litvaks, (probably cuz they are too lazy to daven, so they use this excuse)@sechel
There is no reason whatsoever not to understand.
As simple as can be.Question for you – is tanya in perek 32 from its beginning, addressing Dovid Hamelech [and kings], or addressing us [common people] ?
What’s the answer ?@sechel
There is no reason whatsoever not to understand.
As simple as can be.Question for you – is tanya in perek 32 from its beginning, addressing Dovid Hamelech [and kings], or addressing us [common people] ?
What’s the answer ?@sechel
There is no reason whatsoever not to understand.
As simple as can be.Question for you – is tanya in perek 32 from its beginning, addressing Dovid Hamelech [and kings], or addressing us [common people] ?
What’s the answer ?.
@sechel
which poskim hold its not ?
Even after half an hour after hatsot, that is ….NO ONE !
After so many times asking
sechel has not been able to mention one clear posek who authorizes birhot kr
shm and Shm’E on Shabbat more than half an hour after hatsot.
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