Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

@arso
I personally know many Orthodox Rabanim who would accept your sefer . After reading your comments on this thread.

Sechel is suffering from cognitive dissonance

According to sechel –
“Done! נשתכחה תורת המתנגדים.”

“No godol now is against habad” …. according to sechel.

In sechels illusory world no godol is against habad , habad leader is alive now [give him hagba …], habad never claimed that their leader cannot die, and the moon is a banana ….

.

Everyone knows it’s made out of green cheese.

There’s a democrat that thought it was mostly gasses

“Aaq

“ Why is Lubavitch (one of) the only chassidus that doesn’t wear a gartel? Or a shtreimel?”

The men wear a gartel by davening. Shtreimel was worn until the current Rebbe. It ended up helping others to be mekurav (we kept the beards etc)“

Cs, I’m the one who asked it and I know lubavitchers that don’t wear a gartel during davening

@CS
Thanks for engaging point by point .

With all the sympathy for all other worthy activities you are engaged in , here you answers bring out the bankruptcy of neo habad theology.

It is by now clear to any neutral bystander who is not steeped in the movement and thereby unblinkered by negi’ut, , that there are some major issues with habad theology and its acrobatics .

Acrobatics performed to alternately fit a specific predetermined goal ,still fit with reality to a certain degree, and above all be marketable enough to convince unsuspecting and naive yehudim to blindly follow their messiah.
.

@CS
DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR MASHIACH AND SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDE ON THE WINNER ,BASED ON POPULAR ACCLAIM ?”

No idea. Was Yinon shmo by his students, a way of promoting? And the other yeshivos as well? Or they all happened to promote the name of their Rebbi by coincidence? I don’t think it’s about a popularity contest btw. Rather, Moshiach belongs to all yidden so once his identity is revealed, we want to share how to bring about the full Geula by following his world view, with our fellow Jews. Many times the Moshiach campaign just means to educate people on what the era is about, and how to prepare, without focusing on a candidate.
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1] WITHOUT FOCUSING ON A CANDIDATE…. [CS]
Quite innocent.

The lack of focus on a candidate [in those instances] . Is that because of the name of the candidate is irrelevant ? Or , rather is that merely a preparation as a more smooth way of inserting the name of THE candidate in a later stage ??

Which one of those two options is closer to the truth ??

2] It is clear that this gemara which is discussing the names of mashiach is doing so in a theoretical manner .
IF min hahaim . IF min hameitim etc.

Not in a PRACTICAL way as R’A and bar kochba.
Or in Shabatai Tsvi [shr’y]
Or in neo habad end 20th Century.

There is NO MENTION of ‘promotion’ of any kind whatsoever. Just a note of a discussion in the Bet HaMedrash.
Outside of the Bet HaMedrash there was no knowledge of this at all.
.

@CS
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY DECADES THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO CROWN THEIR OWN LEADER AS MASHIACH – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?”

There are still those who are living in the first half of the question… those who said it meant it at the time, and some still do.
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The question was ON HABAD AS A MOVEMENT , not on specific individuals . The official spokesmen , including the Leader of the movement.

THEY conveyed the message that anyone who claims that habad is trying to crown their own leader is wrong , motsi shem ra and a ‘hater’ .

And its those very same people who conveniently ‘forgot’ all about that , and subsequently joined and/or initiated the mass mashiach meshigaas .

That was the question . Ignoring or sidestepping it , is disingenuous and not a sign of honesty.

CS: The Rebbe never meant it doesn’t make sense period.

I believe that is indeed what he said. Can you please find the quote?

I meant that in lubavitch there is a systematic path of avoda one can take from the lowest point to an endless height with role models along the way. That’s what Chabad is about.

You are very blinkered. That is what the entire world is about, and Yidden have many paths to rise ‘to the Heavens’ by looking up to and emulating those who are on higher levels than they themselves are. But that doesn’t excuse a community not objecting to the many women who are publicly not tzniusdik, and who are thereby machshil others. I’m not talking about yelling at them or anything like that. But the objections should be strong enough that they feel uncomfortable dressing improperly in public.

@arso
Same gimatria as Tsarfat
and as Ufaratsta
Besides functioning as bet rabenu shebebavel
—
All part of the torat maham shilo – torah hadashah me iti tetse
—–

Arso the rambam clearly writes we need to teach goyim to keep the שבע מצוות בני נח,
Oh so you agree כל ישראל ערבים, so do you go to not frum yidden and do mitzvos with them תפילין, give them מצה, or only after they were short sheitels and long skirts?
Btw do you have an issue with the “litvaks” who were lace top shaitels that dosen cover all the hair or the tichels that don’t either? Or only chabad with the long shaitels which are much more tzniusdik halachakly?

“litvaks” don’t wear lace top shaitels. Modern, baalabatish people do it because they want it to look as though they’re not wearing a shaitel. All the litvishe poskim clearly ruled that they’re assur.

Who said a long shaitel is more tznius than a tichel which leaves less than a tefach exposed? Lomg shaitels are alluring. Tichels are not, even if a small amount of hair is showing. Halacha allows that. It does not allow alluring styles, which include long, fancy shaitels.

And no, foreign as this may seem, most kiruv workers do not stand in the street, expose tefilin to pritzus,and then wrap these holy objects on the arms of people full of machshavos asuros who probably don’t have guf naki and whose hands have been heaven knows where.

sechel, we’ve dealt with the 7 mitzvos topic at length in the past. The Rambam does NOT say that we have to teach goyim the 7 mitvos. He writes that Hashem told Moshe Rabbeinu to ‘force’ all of non-Jewish humanity to keep the mitvos that Bnei Noach were commanded, and that if they don’t they are to be executed! So all the meforshim agree that it doesn’t apply to times when the goyim are not under the control of Bnei Yisroel. Furthermore, there are criteria that must be met in order for the non-Jew to be considered adhering to the mitvos of Bnei Noach, and merely doing it out of morality is meaningless. As I wrote, we have discussed this at length in the past.

As Kol Yisrael areivim, if it means that we have to go out and get non-frum people to put on tefillin etc, why did not of the preceding Lubavicher Rebbes tell t cheir hassidim to do so? And why is tefillin more important than any other mitzvah? Why not informing people that they are not allowed to have tattoos, or any other of the many mitzvos that they unfortunately do not fulfill?

Arso and avira, maybe you guys should write a Sefer about what’s alluring and what’s not,
Just because you have machshavos asuros, doesn’t mean the guy in the street does.
Maybe if you would have תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ it would be משכחת עון

ARSo, why do you mix good arguments with poor ones? Take this:
“As Kol Yisrael areivim, if it means that we have to go out and get non-frum people to put on tefillin etc, why did not of the preceding Lubavicher Rebbes tell t cheir hassidim to do so? And why is tefillin more important than any other mitzvah? Why not informing people that they are not allowed to have tattoos, or any other of the many mitzvos that they unfortunately do not fulfill?”

It’s obvious that our generation is faced with a scenario that was not around previously. Lubavitch aren’t the only ones involved in Kiruv. For Satmar have an Ezer Labochurim in Hungary? Was there a Keiravtuni in “the Alter Heim”, or a Kesher Nafshi?

And so you seriously think it’s a good idea to do as you proposed, to tell people off for having tattoos?

CS is [mis]quoting tanya 32 .
It says clearly in tanya 32 that apikorsim there is a mitsva to have tahlit sin’a against them .

CS seems to argue against the tanya …”
[yb]
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Yes he also defines an apikores The way I wrote- someone who was at your level in Torah and mitzvos, you already tried to bring them back by fulfilling the Mitzvah hocheach tochiach (according to the dinim – gently and privately at first, unless making a public chillul Hashem etc) and he refuses to return.
[CS]
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I looked up the tanya [ch 32] this morning .
CS is misquoting tanya for the second time.
You cannot learn gmara or tanya or whatever if you are not exact.

All those prerequisites CS mentioned are not in connection to an apikorus. Tanya clearly mentions them in regard to a non apikorus.
CS is the one who wants us to believe that they pertain to the apikorus.

Not so ,according to tanya.
Mind you that ‘s from someone whose brothers are ‘besting’ the non habad people with their arguments ….
She learnt wrong pshat in her own mentors words – only to be found out by a ‘hater’ ….

A clear sign that the only objective the average habad person has in learning tanya- is to find USAGE of tanyas words to support their preconceived notions of what habad stands for.
As opposed to a no holds barred limud of tanya, without negi’ut, ,only to search for and find the true meaning of the authors kavana in the tanya’s words.

sechel: Arso and avira, maybe you guys should write a Sefer about what’s alluring and what’s not

I don’t know about Avira, but I won’t write a sefer on it because, as you pointed out the other day, no one will accept any sefer written by me because of what I post here!

At any rate, there are two points to address, at least, as far as I am concerned:

1. There is a distinct lack of tznius in Lubavich (of course, not c”v everyone, but the younger the generation the worse it seems) in areas that are clearly delineated in Shulchan Aruch. So no other sefer is needed.
2. There are indeed seforim that deal with what is considered ‘alluring’, e.g. lace sheitels, and I BH don’t need to start investigating that topic.

sechel: in alot of communitys chabad and I think litvaks too, shmiras enayim was not spoken about much in public. One of the reasons for this is and stated in Zohar and brought in likutai Torah, is that a person looks at women when he’s empty of a connection to hashem, so we focus on davening and that takes care of the issue.

“And that takes care of the issue”?! Really?! Had you said that it MIGHT take care of the issue, ok, but it doesn’t. The language and behavior of Lubavich men and bochurim in matters of tznius is on average far far worse than it is in other kreizen. Yes, I know, there are many fine Lubavicher who won’t foul their mouths and who try to keep a decent level of separation of the genders etc, but the average bochur and yungerman…?! So don’t mention shmiras einayim and just keep talkeing about davening. That takes care of it.

ARSo, not only is it accepted, but such lacking people are,as noted here, sometimes promoted to positions of communally leadership and representation of chabad abroad, something unthinkable in other circles. Even modern Orthodox rebbetzins dress according to halacha nowadays, as far as i know.

I’d also add to your point about letting everyone do things on their own level – I’ve heard as a knee-jerk reaction from supposedly anti-messianic people that the reason why they don’t come out in a ma’aracha, full blown opposition to the messianics is because “there’s enough division in klal yisroel as it is.” This empty line seems rehearsed and inculcated, but aside from its disingenuousness, it also speaks to how much neo-chabad will admit to the chaos in its camp, where no rules are set in stone and you practically have to be Shmuely boteach to get any kind of reprimand….or maybe he’s ok now too; who knows.

Arso being mekarev yidden. See keser shem tov, see seforim hakdoahim – full of it.
See specifically the Sefer pokeach ivrim from the mitiler rebbe. How he instucts a Baal tshuvah how to act, and see the hakdama which has the story behind it that the alter rebbe – Baal hatanya told a big Talmud chacham to become a wagon driver, and that’s how he ended up being mikarev this yid (who was married to a non Jew)
I agree it was less commen being that there were much less non frum Jews.
And according to you it’s new, so…. Internet it also new, shaitels are also new, yeshiva movement is also new, brisker derech halimud is also new,
Tznius comments – nothing to add, as I said the same isur applys to staring at a finger of a women as any other part of her. Torah gave us halachos, and also teaches how to enforce them, when their was a Sanhedrin they killed for many aviros, gave malkos for many. Today we don’t have a Sanhedrin.
Lubavitcher rabbonim have their way of dealing with it (as far as I know, every summer they right about it in the halachos for the summer that comes out) they teach about it in education.
We way do different than others. Btw someone’s comment that less than a tefach of hair is ok, maybe reb Moshe held that way but everyone else argues. Chabad holds that even a drop of hair is an issue, and that’s why we have shaitels. There is mekoros in chazal that the yetzer hara is not in the shaitels – hair not connected to the body. (See שלחן מנחם). So maybe others hold different but our way is halachakly based. (Those who hold long shaitels are ok, I’m not saying all chabad rabbonim hold that way)
We can’t enforce things the way we feel. Many from the older generation thought to educate their kids a certain way – very strict and harsh, and today many see the outcome of those good intentions. Same thing with telling off people who are not tznius, you can search the internet and see some of the otd satmers who speak about it.

Arso tefillin on Jews. The agudas harabbanim of usa and Canada wrote a letter encouraging מבצע תפילין, there is also a separate letter from Reb mosh feinsten supporting all the rebbes mivtzoim. Search Google and you can find them.
(Why it wasn’t done before, 1) many places were anti semitic or at least anti encouraging non religious Jews to practice similari to why Jews didn’t encourage non Jews to keep Sheva mitzvos. 2) a lot of the unreligious Jews many yrs ago were anti religious not like today who just grew up non frum. 3) I think you could find in history a concep of putting tefillin on non frum Jews (definitely from the Baal shem tov, and I think from the סמג, I need to check)
Anyway all the gedolim supported it besides the satmer rebbe. Reb yeruchem from the mir wrote a letter in support.
Somehow ponovitch and satmer had success thru their massive advertising campaigns to convince dumb people who are too stupid to research facts, that all the gedolim were always against chabad or at least since the rebbe or the frierdiker rebbe.

There seems to be a big disconnect here.

By “litvishe,” i and the other posters here are referring to people who live by the mesorah of litvishe yeshivos and rabbonim. But it’s not centralized; there are scragglers who are loosely affiliated or not at all, and there are people who might have grown up in yeshivos but became baalebatish and discarded much of the mesorah.

That being said, in places like Lakewood, no one who wears a lace top shaitel would ever be chosen or kept in any kind of chinuch role. There are community standards that if not kept, might not lead to a cherem but will also make such people ostracized. It’s not what I’m “calling” modern – there are, firstly, modern orthodox jews, and there are the above weaker people, but you seem to want to lump together all non-chabad people as if we’re a homogenous group, differences between which critics of chabad are inventing out of thin air.

The difference is that in chabad, there’s a tolerance for sinfulness in the above issues (and others), as long as you consider yourself Lubavitch. Now you might not get a shiduch with a gez family, but you will be shielded from criticsm from us “snags” simply because you believe in their rebbe.

Making belief in a person so central to a religious perspective, where stated belief in him is almost the sole criteria for shielding and acceptance, and the one deal breaker, where if someone opposes him, he is totally chutz lemachaneh…. that is essentially christian.

Sechel: how you you know where the shmiras enayim is better or worse?

Shmiras einayim is ALWAYS better where women are tzniusdik as opposed to where they aren’t. There’s no way out of that, regardless of whatever you’ll answer about learning chassidus and davening.

And there’s another issue of tznius that, as far as I can recall, hasn’t been mentioned at all. In which other frum communities do you find teenage and adult men walking around wearing shorts and flip-flops? Of course, this is accompanied by full beards and tzitzis hanging loose. After all, we are Lubavichers, aren’t we? And I’m not talking about BTs or people going OTD. I’m talking about regular Lubavichers who don’t care about tznius as it applies to men. I remember seeing a clip of Rabbi Paltiel decrying the fact that Lubavichers don’t all wear suits, hats and jackets. Shorts and flip-flops?! Mahn dechar shmeihu?

And as mentioned before anyone who doesn’t keep all the “takanos” of the yeshivish rabbonim, is modern, so if you want, you can say the same thing in chabad. Anyone who doesn’t keep the letters of the badatz of crown heights or eretz yisroel (which includes strict guidelines on tznius) call them modern! Issue solved? Now your happy.

Not at all happy, and for at least two reasons:
1. Many/most of these families where the women don’t care about tznius consider themselves fully-committed Lubavichers, and no one says otherwise.
2. Some of these women are shluchos, and thus OFFICIALLY represent Lubavich.