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Can someone bring a source for this idea that if a women dresses in modest, he suffers in gehenom for all those who looked at her? What if he dresses tznius are men still look at her does she also suffer for not dressing in a way that no one would look at her – like the Arabs, or is she punished for leaving her house – כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה, or does the fact that she’s working to support her husband and children learning justify her being in the street?
Men have bechira chafshin to look at women. The alter rebbe says in Tanya perek 30 or 31, even if someone needs to work on the street he is a rasha if he doesn’t control where he looks, reb Moshe feinsten has a tshuva that says if someone can’t control himself looking at women, he should stay home. So this idea that the women are machsil the men – it’s belongs. As if chabad is the only community with not tznius women, Williamsburg are borough park and lakewood are all full of non Jews, do you not go to the airport? and if you all really so careful and your only issue is crown heights so Don’t come to crown heights if you can’t control yourself. Anyway you should stay away from “kofrim”
back to learning chassidus, someone claimed before the chozon ish learned Kabalah, I guess everyone agrees we should learn Kabalah.@yankel berel , I didn’t make it up, the arizal did. So you can question the arizal, I told you my answer, if you don’t like it, then …
It’s according to your logic, one of the complaints on chabad saying the rebbe is moshiach, is that it’s not the mesorah, it’s a new thing, I claim it was always done as mentioned in gemarah Sanhedrin,
Just like you argue with that, I argue that tznius was never a focus, my proof it the fact that in shulchan aruch there is no halachos how a women needs to dress (all there is is siman 3 which is for men also, and no details about how to dress).
Good shabbossechel: I argue that tznius was never a focus
I agree. Tznius was never a focus, just like breathing was never a focus. ALL Jewish women were automatically tzniusdig (as were many women in other cultures, lehavdil) so there was no need to focus on it. It was only once fashion became a focus, and when the world became more permissive Rachmono litzlon, that tznius among women started going downhill.
You came with an explanation [only King David – not us].
Remember ?I asked a question on your explanation.
You ignored the question.
Remember ?So the question stands , no ?
@sechel
Coca cola type of pirsomet to [search for candidates and then] publicly make atsarot lekabalat malhut shel mashiach was NEVER done within klal yisrael irrespective of location and date.Not like CS and sechel attempt to make us believe.
This is A TOTAL NEWFANGLED IDEA promoted by neo habad.
Even if you turn yourself in to a pretsel , like the theological twists and turns of neo habad , you will have ZERO EVIDENCE of any precedent for that.
.Sechel, by your thinking, chasidus shouldn’t be important because it’s not in shulchan aruch. Neither is the idea of a chasidishe rebbe mentioned anywhere in the rishonim.
But those are ikkarim for tou, simply because your rebbe said so – which is fine, except when it comes to defending something your community is lacking in, you turn to something which you yourself don’t hold of when it comes to things you decided are important.
Does shulchan aruch say that giving someone chazir is lifnei iver? Does it have to?
Did you know that nowhere does it say in shulchan aruch that a mechitzah is required in shul?
Quit the hypocrisy.
That women receive punishment for being macshil men is in poskim which talk about lifnei iver – please read halichos bas yisroel, it’s a very good sefer. I don’t have it on me at home, but it’s readily available. It’s also no surprise that shlomo hamelech’s prime representation of the yatzer hora in mishlei is an immodest woman. Just as a source i remember off the top of my head, which i wrote above, is the peleh yoetz, which says that women will be punished first, before the men they were machshil.
As for whether or not women who keep halacha are nevertheless starred at by men, אונס רחמנא פטריה, the rule is that an oness is exempt from punishment. She’s not obligated to stay in the house for that. However to whatever degree she can centralize the home, that’s a fulfillment of kol kevudah, which is partially due to the above, but not limited to it.
See what the chofetz chaim wrote about calamities that befell klal yisroel:
I have said that the main reason for this is that we ourselves are distancing Hashem from us… Everything connected to the horrible thing called “fashion” [a way of dressing which includes anything worn from head to toe for the main purpose of attracting men, may Hashem protect us] brings a person to have sinful thoughts… and it actively nullifies Hashem’s words: “And your camp shall be holy, and there should not be seen amongst you anything, ervas davar, immodest.” And due to our many sins, a great fire has broken out in Hashem’s vineyard in many places because of this terrible “fashion,” because the impure forces become stronger due to this… and therefore the influence and blessing which each person should receive in his dealings has been stopped, and this causes all the troubles and bad things… Therefore there is an obligation upon each and every person to put out this terrible fire and to make sure that in his house, everyone acts according to halacha and not with immodesty.”
The ben ish chai has an entire section devoted to hilchos tznius, called chukei noshim, where he mentions a lot of details that people today struggle with, besides the areas that need to be covered. He explains the centrality of tznius too – as does every other sefer that talks about it
@arso “all Jewish women were automatically tzniusdig”. Could be but how do you know it was so important? 2) shulchan aruch talks about every halacha even those that everyone always kept.
Yankel berel, billboards is a new idea, radio and internet is also. So in the time of Gemara they obviously didn’t use billboards. 2) do you also have an issue with the siyum hashas in a stadium?! Totally new! What about advertising the siyum hashas or daf yomi shiurim on billboards and newspapers – totally new.
It’s interesting how 40 yrs ago the misnagdim claimed that chabad has such a focus on the rebbe – pictures, videos etc, today they do the same with rav chaim kanievski z”l – there are tons of pictures of everything he did“Just to add, The Rebbe said that tznius and tahara is the resting stone of yiras shomayim of women.
Also that it’s the crown midda of the Jewish woman.“
Proof positive that cs changes positions more than any sports player because originally she was trying to defend how Crown Heights (and especially shluchos) didn’t have to be tznius
The chazon ish learned Kabalah, to point out in avi ezri, r.s. writes that Kabalah is not Torah. In the introduction of the 4th edition.
I have no clue I he learned Kabalah or not, but he doesn’t bring it in his seforim, so why would I think he did? He was also against learning chassidus.
Some base their yiddishkeit off rumers, the fact that the rebbe learned Kabalah, and was the most knolagable in it, well just open up Seder hamaamarim, or listen to a maamer. I don’t have to go to rumers for this.CS – that’s what chasidus, or mussar, or drush,is supposed to do. And it does. But ifa person finds any other part of Torah “dry” afterwards, it’s showing a deficiency in the method which is being used to convey those parts of Torah, and in the unpreparedness of the recipient.
Sechel….
Avi ezri was written by Rav Shach, not the Chazon Ish. The chazon ish wrote….the chazon ish.
And nowhere in either sefer is there any mention that kabalah is not Torah, chas veshalom. Rav Shach, as it happens, fiercely opposed Kapach, the haskalah -oriented yemenite “rabbi” who denied the zohar and kabalah.
I’m sure there’s ample motivation in chabad to demonize Rav Shach and make it as if he was against everything holy – he wasn’t.
Sechel represents the “man on the street” in crown heights, and CS is attempting to be the apologist, but both are quite telling in the current state of chabad.
“But yes tznius if the crown midda of a frum woman- both in dress and behind closed doors“
And therefore pasht nisht for a shlucha to be untzniusdik and should be ostracized and non shluchos should be taught properly (as opposed to how people in this thread has been saying crown heights is)
“to point out in avi ezri, r.s. writes that Kabalah is not Torah. In the introduction of the 4th edition.“
Just like you highly doubt that any litvak read any sicha from the Lubavitcher rebbe I highly doubt you ever opened an Avi ezri
Just out of curiosity, I looked up Rav Shach, and surprise surprise, he says no such thing.
What he says is essentially a Taz in shu”a YD246:4, which puts chochmas hakabalah together with shaar chochmos that one should only learn b’akrai and only after learning kol hatorah kulah.
These shitos hold that kabalah is hakaras haboreh, and not a mitzvah of talmud Torah. Just like many hold mussar is a kiyum mitzvah of v’davka bo, and not talmud Torah, even though its contents are definitely Torah.
Kabalah is Torah but its study might not be considered the mitzvah of talmud Torah in halacha. Many disagree about it and mussar; the shailoh might be תלוי זה בזה.
Sechel and CS are conveniently sidestepping the main points .
1] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE HOLD ATSAROT FOR KABALAT PNEI MASHIACH ?
2] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE USE THE MEANS OF MASS ADVERTISING AVAILAIBLE TO THEM IN THEIR CONTEXT TO PROMOTE AN INDIVIDUAL AS MASHIACH ?
3] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE IN AN ORGANIZED FASHION LOOK FOR CANDIDATES FOR MASHIACH AND SUBSEQUENTLY DECIDE ON THE WINNER ,BASED ON POPULAR ACCLAIM ?
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY DECADES THAT THEY ARE NOT TRYING TO CROWN THEIR OWN LEADER AS MASHIACH – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY DO THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?
4] DID A JEWISH COMMUNITY ANYTIME , ANYWHERE PUBLICLY STATE DURING MANY YEARS THAT THAT THEIR LEADER CAN NOT DIE AND THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE IKAREI EMUNA AND IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE AT ANY TIME IN THE FUTURE – ONLY TO WHEN CONVENIENT CHANGE COURSE AND PUBLICLY PROCLAIM THE EXACT OPPOSITE ?
Sechel and CS, Please – honest answers , without insults and denigrations and without sidestepping .
La’inyan.Behavod
– The floor is all yours ….CS is [mis]quoting tanya 32 .
It says clearly in tanya 32 that apikorsim there is a mitsva to have tahlit sin’a against them .CS seems to argue against the tanya …
CS: My point was that Rashi isn’t necessarily sticking his point to just the Sanhedrin.
Rashi is explaining just the possuk, as he always does, and since the possuk is dealing only with the Sanhedrin, that is only what Rashi is referring to.
I know that chassidim – us included – use this statement in regards to our tzaddikim, but it is certainly not the simple pshat in the posuk.
I know it’sa Mitzvah for Goyim to believe in Hashem, and I’ve heard of a very respected person teaching Tanya to depressed celebrities (he asked them to start tznius clothing trends as a result.)
It’s a mitzvah for them, but not for us to teach them. And your ‘very respected person’ would not be respected by anyone who thinks straight and realises that you’re not allowed to teach Torah to goyim.
I wrote: “ You know you’re scraping the bottom of the barrel when you bring an anecdotal proof from a shikse!”
And CS replied: Aderabe- even she saw it.
There is definitely something very wrong with your hashkofos if you really mean that. I remember hearing from a Lubavicher many many years ago that if you’re not sure what to do, ask a misnaged and do the opposite. Now you’re bringing the opinion of a shikse and using it as a proof of the right hashkofo?! The opinion of a goy, regardless of how respectable and well-meaning they are, is WORTHLESS when it comes to deciding what is good in teaching or learning Torah. Can you get anyone to back you up in your view?
In reply to my objecting to the LR saying that it doesn’t make sense that Mashiach hasn’t come yet, CS wrote: I believe I answered this already. Shlomo hamelech couldn’t understand para adumah…
Please please please stop being medameh milsa lemilsa. I’ll be melamed zechus and say that as you do not have a background in Gemoro, you haven’t learned to be discerning in your comparisons.
There is NO comparison between אמרתי אחכמה והיא רחוקה ממני – I said I will understand, but it is too distant from me – which is what Shlomo Hamelech said about the Para Aduma, and saying, as the LR did, that there is NO sense to the fact that Mashiach hasn’t come. The former in admission of not understanding. The latter is saying that the RBS”O is wrong c”v as THERE IS NO SENSE to it.
within lubavitch there’s always who to look up to and where to grow ad ain sof
As there is in any community. But in other communities women who are machshil others are asked to fix themselves or leave. In Lubavich they become shluchim.
disclaimer: they are asked to fix themselves, not always to leave. But most definitely not to teach.
@CS
CS: My point was that Rashi isn’t necessarily sticking his point to just the Sanhedrin.
—
So there is NO PROOF for anything more than sanhedrin .
You agree and we agree .
You cannot use this as proof .Avira you controdicted yourself, does he write it’s Torah or not? I’m not trying to attack him (even though if the Rebbe said something similar it would be very different)
I’m just saying that since he held it’s not the mitzvah of Talmud Torah he didn’t learn it. The chazon ish – prove to me he learned Kabalah! According to Avi ezri he could have learned kol hatorah kula without learning kabala.
Yankel berel and if not? Was there ever an internet asifa or a asifa about shmiras enayim?Sechel….
Please read my post. Rav Shach holds like the Taz. Nobody said kabalah isn’t Torah. The question is if you’re mekayam talmud Torah with it, because talmud Torah is to learn tanach and gemara to come to halachos. The shulchan aruch harav even, can hold that kabalah isn’t talmud Torah, if you go through his psakim.
He doesn’t write that it isn’t Torah or that it is; that wasn’t his discussion. His discussion is if you’re mekayam talmud Torah with it or not.
In maaseh ish talmidim testify that the chazon ish was an expert in kabalah too.
@avirah
Re hazon Ish’s kabala learning- there is a ‘study’ by one of the mizrahi academics in bar ilan university about hazon ish where he argues that h’i did not learn kabala. I saw this study in the possession of a habad friend of mine . Thats probably where sehel gets his info from.
Btw- R SS Deutchs biography of the rebbi of the habad hasidim was forbidden and burnt in habad, but an equivalent [or even worse] biography about the hazon ish is kasher and even mumlats.
Maybe this can be sourced in some specific farbrengen on Purim 1956 ….
.It’s been more than a day since anyone has posted on here so I want to take the time and ask a question
Why is Lubavitch (one of) the only chassidus that doesn’t wear a gartel? Or a shtreimel?
@coffee
Thats not the issue with habad.@yb,
And therefore I can’t ask the question? I’m wondering about it so I ask a question, it’s still a free country you know
@coffee
LaBri’ut . Ask it. Never stopped anyone from asking.Coffee, they used to. They changed it for kiruv reasons, which in and of itself isn’t a huge deal.
Also they’re not the only ones who don’t wear streimels; stolin in America don’t either
recently Rabbi Chay Amar, shliach to Golden Beach, Florida, met with ten leading Litvish and Sephardic rabbonim across Eretz Yisroel, presenting with them the set of the Rebbe’s commentaries on Rambam. Rabbi Meir Mazuz, Rabbi Shlomo Yehuda Be’eri (the “Yenukah”), Rabbi Kadosh, Rabbi Avraham Elkayam, Rabbi Yitzchak Shaul Kanievsky son of Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rabbi Mordechai Shmuel Edelstein, a nephew of the late Rav Gershon Edelstein,,
It’s good timing; shaimos trucks are ubiquitous this time of year…
re: shtreimels – other than Xians forcing Jews to wear distinct clothes, what were previous (or non-Xian) cases where Jews would wear distinct clothes? Maybe more tzanua, but other than that? any specific cases? Sephardim? Amoraim?
Sechel
That’s not ten litvish rabbanim there are mostly sfardim there
Rabbi Chay Amar, shliach to Golden Beach, Florida, met with ten leading Litvish and Sephardic rabbonim across Eretz Yisroel, presenting with them the set of the Rebbe’s commentaries on Rambam. …., Rabbi Yitzchak Shaul Kanievsky son of Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rabbi Mordechai Shmuel Edelstein, a nephew of the late Rav Gershon Edelstein,,
============Sechel is busy with classic habad mis/dis information.
I happen to personally know that both R Ch Kanievski and R G Edelstein zihronam livraha ,had a very negative view of neo habad.
Whether the report of R YS Kanievski or R MS Edelstein accepting the habad leaders’ commentaries on Rambam are accurate or an outright fabrication , I do not know.
Even if did happen [which I doubt], It is NO INDICATION of their illustrious relatives’ , or their own for that matter, praise or acceptance of neo habads aberrations of the last 60 – 70 years .
.Where is QWERTY with his convoluted “checkmates” did this thread actually burn him out on his favorite topic of discussion?
And I don’t even understand what sechel was trying to prove. I could meet a hundred rabbonim and present them with my (as yet, and probably forever, unpublished) sefer. Would that show that they are interested in the sefer, or that I am interested in publicizing my sefer?
You can see the videos on the internet anash or col websites.
Just pointing out that contrary to some who said that these people are against the rebbe and chabad, they accepted a Seder from him and said good things.
So you can continue to believe rumers or accept the fact that today no gedolim are against chabad. Done! נשתכחה תורת המתנגדים.
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