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@avira
@Arso
Just as a reminder , before you debate the habad apologists, please keep in mind the following :the leader of the habad hasidim gave explicit instructions to his followers. whenever you engage in debate with people of a different persuasion , you must do so with the condition that you [the follower] in your own mind give NO CREDENCE WHATSOEVER EVEN TO THE POSSIBILITY that he might have something to tell you that you previously did not know.
That is their starting point.
When their rebbi famously told them to phiphe on the world , it was meant to phiphe on your arguments . By the mere fact that those arguments are against habad, that ITSELF is the biggest possible refutation . All other refutations they might come up with ,are simply batel umevutal [kom lei mideraba minei] and pale in comparison .
That explains [to me] this astonishing phenomenon of having a rational conversation with [supposedly] rational people , and there we keep on going round and round , and ,after all rationality , they seem totally oblivious to it .
I don’t know about you , but this kept on baffling me again and again.
They sound and seem rational and open , but on the other side seem immunized against rationality.
I must concede – their rebbi did a good job.
He transformed them exactly in to what he wanted them to be.
.Also, “classic” seforim that discuss the mussar elements of tznius as the mainstay of a woman include menoras hamaor, pele yoetz, and many others. Ths Gaon famously wrote that tznius is for women what Torah is for men.
I hope we can avoid breaches of Tznius while speaking of Tznius
CS – no hilchos tznius in the “classic seforim”? See the sources brought in mishnah berurah 75 s”k2, and all of the sources brought in halichos bas yisroel. It’s literally all over the place.
It’s dealt with mainly regarding ervah l’inyan krias shma and talmud Torah. That’s where the poskim discuss which parts of the body must be covered and give the details you were taught. Elbows, knees, collarbone, etc..
That’s why thw sefer halichos bas yisroel was very important, because he compiled the poskim who discussed the details of tznius, but they were everywhere and needed little chidushim.
Regarding lashon hora, i am referring to details. What is the definition? What are the tenoim for toeles? When can one believe LH and when can you only be concerned about it? These aee things not discussed at all in the rishonim, st least not directly. The chofetz chaim labored greatly to learn this sugya and come to conclusions in halacha.
In tznius, there was no such need for the author of halichos bas yisroel to do that. Read the sefer, even though it was not written by a Lubavitcher..it won’t hurt your worldviiew.
“if you know aleph teach aleph”
Equals
A guy with a glow in the dark pen leading a group of people on a cliff in pitch dark.
Yankel, i think you’re right. I have yet to encounter a Lubavitcher who yields on any miniscule point if it has anything remotely to do with chabad. edited The debate is more of a show, because they’ve made up their mind already or closed themselves off from any other alternative.
And they wonder when everyone else says they’re cultish.
“And why is a lady who isn’t dressed tznius the biggest no no, but a man who dresses perfectly chassidish (notlubavitch) is forgiven for watching all the things he does on his devices, and is known he does, because at least he dresses the part? So alls good and his kids can join the school. But dressed imperfectly? Forget it!
Please explain that one too”
The lady is a חוטא ומחטיא the guy looking at things on his devices is just a חוטא
Aveira,
Please share precisely where and in what context the “Gaon famously wrote that tznius is for women what Torah is for men”.
>> “if you know aleph teach aleph”
> cliff in pitch dark.I heard the same admiring expression about aleph used by R Mordechai Shapiro Z’L. Of course when appropriate. I don’t think either speaker meant anything kabbalistic or set theory of Georg Cantor.
For apikorsim he says – tahlit sin’a sene’tim. Sin’ah without qualification.
How that fits with contemporary habad theology and habad practise is a mystery.”
——–Yb, the answer is that there is no true apikorsim today (Frierdiker Rebbe).
Acher was a true apikoros because he knew Hashems greatness and became an apikoros anyway.
Todays “apikorsim” are wannabes and lacking any true knowledge of Hashem and Yiddishkeit
[CS]
=================================================So you disagree with sechel that tahlit hasin’a , is talking about david hamelech only, and not to us ?
@CS
“The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .…”
[yb]Have you ever seen the Rambam describe the Mitzvah of Respecting Talmidei Chachamim? How if someone rebels against his Rebbe he’s rebelling against Hashem? How about rashi- even if they (leaders) say that right I’d let/ left is right, follow them…
[CS to yb]
=============
A] Rambams respecting talmidei hahamim has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the question of infallibility.
Please CS , can you own up to this one ?B] “Rebelling against his rebbi” is mentioned in the context of answering she’elot without the Rebi’s permission or in the rebbi’s locality.
[Cf Sh’A hilhot kevod rabbo]
Not in the context of infallibility .
Sh’A permits [even mandates] to argue on one rebbi’s halahic decisions, provided it s done respectfully.
Please CS , can you own up to this one too ?C] Al yemin shehu smol veal smol shehu yemin , the rashi you mentioned is speaking about sanhedrin hagadol in yerushalayim where it is indeed prohibited to argue against .
So – to summarize – is the leader of habad INFALLIBLE ?
The answer is a resounding NO !!!
.Gadol, it’s in a letter the Gaon wrote to his daughter
מתנבא על משיח means saying prophesy about moshiach , does not say anything about claiming a candidate, I’m saying the same way we say a candidate, you say no. Neither are prophesy.
From the context it would seem it’s talking about prophesy about WHEN moshiach is coming, and when he doesn’t come that time, it’s a חרפה.
Anyway a few points I saw and will comment on even though I should just say “look who’s talking about shluchim am haratzim” at least those shluchim learned semicha and rambam – kol hatorah kulah. Vda”l
About Jews being equal and non the less mevushal wine. In Tanya this idea is explained that we see indifferent areas in halacha have different dinim i.e. shchitas mumar of mechalel shabbos you can’t eat משאכ גילוי אריות, by יהרג ואל יעבור it’s the opposite. Perek לב תניא clearly says that a rasha could have a higher neshama, perek 2 too. Perek 31 also talks about how a beinuni – someone who never does any avaira even bitul Torah should feel lower than a rasha. But as explained in perek 2 and 32 there is a level in neshama that we are all equal.
Anyway today we start a new cycle of rambam . Did you learn kol hatorah kulah yet? Go learn and you won’t have such dumb questions.Why lubavitch shchita simple, the rambam says the way to come to fear hashem is thru thinking about his greatness then goes on to explain 4 perakim about מעשה בראשית ומעשה מרכבה. How are people who are against learning מעשה מרכבה going to get yiras hashem? So we eat from someone who learns these ideas. Now I don’t consider everything else traif or say everyone else is definitely not a yiras shamayim (some can have natural yiras shamayim) , but I need to be careful for myself to get from a shochet a yiras shamayim כ”ש from when
“Yb
“The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible”
I agree the rebbe is not infallible, if you listen to recording you can hear the rebbe corrects himself, but who am I to say the rebbe made a mistake? So for me I need to follow the Mishnah כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחר השכינה (similar to what the rambam writes that you need to followעדים even though they can be lieing)
There is a famous saying of the frierdiker rebbe about this topic when a chassid sees a Seder of a gadol, and sees something he doesn’t understand, he tries to break his head to understand it, a misnaged right away says that the gadol made a mistake.Sechel: מתנבא על משיח means saying prophesy about moshiach , does not say anything about claiming a candidate, I’m saying the same way we say a candidate, you say no. Neither are prophesy.
Are you now claiming that your rebbe did NOT claim to be misnabe about Mashiach?! Just to be clear, I didn’t quote the Sefer Chassidim in reference to you or me. I quoted it in reference to your rebbe!
I should just say “look who’s talking about shluchim am haratzim” at least those shluchim learned semicha and rambam – kol hatorah kulah.
1. Many, many, many of those who ‘learned’ semicha in Lubavich do NOT know what they officially learned, and have remained am haratzim. You can claim otherwise as many times as you want, but I grew up with Lubavichers in that category, and I have met tons of others. Nice people, usually, but am haratzim who call themselves rabbi because someone gave them semicha because they had to, as the LR said that everyone has to get semicha.
2. “Kol hatorah kulah” – really?! So why did the Baal Hatanya write a new Shulchan Aruch? I know the Rambam wrote that expression about his sefer, but clearly others – Rishonim and Acharonim – did not agree with that. Clearly even the Raavad didn’t agree, or else he wouldn’t have argued with the Rambam.I need to be careful for myself to get from a shochet a yiras shamayim
Typical Lubavich garbage. I know a number of Lubavicher shochtim very well. Some are takke yirei Shomayim, but others have less yiras Shomayim than I do… and that’s saying something! I won’t elaborate on how I know about their lack of yiras Shomayim, but suffice it to say that even Lubavichers in the community have agreed with me. Yet they still insist on eating only Lubavicher shechita despite their being different shechitos with shochtim whom even the Lubavichers consider yirei Shomayim.
CS in reply to my challenge to present a source that other chassidim explain the passuk צדיק באמונתו יחיה to mean that they rely TOTALLY on their Rebbe without putting in their own effort:
No, its pretty well known, but I haven’t yet managed to learn all the chassidus outside of Chabad so I’d have no idea where to lookIt’s pretty well known… in Lubavich circles, because that is one of the straw men that they have created. Surely, if it’s pretty well-known you would be able to ask someone for a source.
On my end, I’ve been careful not to label specific groups or individuals, and made the examples generic.
Which, in a way, is worse, because your implication was that all other chassidim do these wrong things, which Lubavich allegedly does not do. Had you written about, say, Satmar, then it would have been lashon hara (actually motzi shem ra) just against them. The way you wrote it, however, it is against all other chassidim.
Surely you would agree that when early misnagdim talked against the ‘kass’, and they referred to all chassidim, it was worse than had they talked against only one Rebbe.
CS, in reply to two of your questions:
1. A worker does not have to DEMAND his wages in order for the employer to be over bal talin. It is enough if he asks to be paid.
2. Blatant lack of tznius is worse than many other aveiros for a number of reasons. Firstly, as I have written, it is machshil many men many times a day.
Secondly, as it is a public lack of tznius, it is befarhesia, and thus worse than an aveira done privately.
Thirdly, when a woman who knows the halachos decides to go out in public in a non-tznius manner, she is announcing that she doesn’t care about the halacha. Someone who, for example, speaks lashon hara because he is ‘attacked’ by his yetzer hara, has not planned on doing so. I would agree that if someone stands on a street corner and attempts to stop passersby and tell them lashon hara, he would be just as bad. But that is something that generally doesn’t happen.CS: This is where you yourself show me you have no idea of what a real Rebbe is- not something I grew up with. The Rebbe spoke with ruach hakodesh on a constant basis, and the many people impacted on a personal level can and do testify to this- and not only Lubavitchers.
So your answer to my claim that the LR was wrong and that he said something that if anyone else had said it you would call it apikorsus, is that the LR is right because he always is. You do realize, I hope, that that is not an acceptable reply to someone who doesn’t believe that the LR was a Nasi-Hador/Mashiach/Navi/infallible or a baal ruach hakodesh. It is merely saying, as you so often do, the LR is right, so there!
Btw, of course I have no idea what a real Rebbe is. If I did, I would probably be a real Rebbe. But I believe I do know WHO a real Rebbe is… and who is not.
the general context was that we need to finish up Avodas Habirurim during golus. I never saw it promise that the minute it’s finished, we enter Geula Shleima. Again I could be wrong, so I asked you to support your premise which you didn’t.
So I googled it and it came up easily… from a Lubavicher site. And there are more than just this one. (I am loath to quote a sichah, but here it is: )
וזלה”ק (בשיחת ש״פ נח, ד’ מר ־ חשון תשנ״ב – ספר השיחות תשנ״ב ע’ 65 ואילך): והדגשה יתירה בכהנ״ל – בנוגע לחשבון ־ צדק בשבת פרשת נח בשנה זו: ובהקדמה – שכיון שהעיד כ״ק מו”ח אדמו״ר נשיא דורנו שכבר סיימו כל עניני העבודה, כולל גם צחצוח הכפתורים, ועומדים מוכנים יעמדו הכן כולכם׳׳) לקבל פני משיח צדקנו, הרי, מסקנת החשבון – צדק (חשבון ־ צדק דייקא, חשבון אמיתי) שעושים בימינו אלו, היא, שתיכף ומיד ממש צריכה לבוא הגאולה האמיתית והשלמה בפועל ממש!
(My apologies if it comes out a bit garbled, but that often happens when copying from a Hebrew website into an English text. At any rate, the site is called merkazato and all you have to do is google נסתיימה עבודת הבירורים.)I’m sure he later explains it all to HIS satisfaction, but I’m not interested in his rationalizations. I’m just responding to your request for a source.
Aveira,
“Gadol, it’s in a letter the Gaon wrote to his daughter”.
So it’s not brought down as Halacha in any of his writings. Please share the precise quote from the letter.
Seems like some have tons of טמטום המח והלב. Maybe eat only lubavitch shchita and chalov yisroel, and things will be clearer. I don’t know what to tell you.
Rambam kol hatorah kulah. Learn hilchos Talmud Torah of that shulchan aruch harav, true others argue, and true the rosh says you can’t pasken without learning the reasons but it’s 1) according to the rambam fulfilling the mitzvah, 2); according to the shu harav – doing the mitzvah maybe not bishlaimos, but for almost everyone today, the proper way to learn, (after learning halachos hatzrichos, one should learn rambam) see hilchos Talmud Torah,
Whereas by learning a few mesechtos in nashim and nezikin, or even the whole Talmud bavli – no one holds you learned kol hatorah kolah (cuz you need to learn zrayim, taharos, and mechilta, sifri, sifra.)
A already mentioned that in Torah or it says Yaakov avinu finished avodas habirurim, that you don’t have an issue with?
When did the rebbe prophesize about moshiach ? About what ?
Seder hachassidim? What about what the rambam writes at the end of hilchos tumas tzarass about someone who talks against a Talmud chacham? Oh so you claim the rebbe wasn’t a real Talmud chacham but you are? I bet even you agree that no one alive today comes close to the rebbes yedias hatorah. And if you don’t agree, then Listen to more sichos.sechel: I don’t know what to tell you.
Never stopped you before 😉
“Seems like some have tons of טמטום המח והלב. Maybe eat only lubavitch shchita and chalov yisroel, and things will be clearer. I don’t know what to tell you.”
This is a great example of circular thinking.
Chabad is right, and if you question it, it must be because you’re not following chabads opinions. If you were, you’d see that chabad is right.
When facts and sources fail, just go for the “you’re only saying this because you’re not following a Lubavitch standard”
As it happens, i and almost all other yeshivish people are makpid on cholov Yisroel. I avoid Lubavitch shechitah however, because of the very real possibility that the shochet worships a man as god wrapped in a body.
sechel: A already mentioned that in Torah or it says Yaakov avinu finished avodas habirurim, that you don’t have an issue with?
Clearly your rebbe had an issue with it because he said that it makes no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come after the end of avodas habirurim. (Btw I wouldn’t mind seeing that quote from Torah Or.)
When did the rebbe prophesize about moshiach ? About what ?
You’re kidding, right? The entire time we have been told by all the Lubavichers on this thread that the LR is a novi and that he said that he is Mashiach so we HAVE to believe him. And now you’re asking where he prophesied?! Just google נבואת הרבי שהוא משיח or something similar, like I did, and you’ll find quite a bit of stuff.
What about what the rambam writes at the end of hilchos tumas tzarass about someone who talks against a Talmud chacham? Oh so you claim the rebbe wasn’t a real Talmud chacham but you are?
Was Shabsi Tzvi a talmid chochom? Do we have to know as much Torah as he does to reject him? And don’t forget that Rav Shach, lehavdil, was a talmid chochom, but that didn’t stop any Lubavicher denigrating him when he was alive. And don’t deny it because I was around then, and he was talked about as if he was the lowest of the low.
No, I am not a talmid chochom, but I am qualified to reject someone whose agenda was to aggrandize himself as a novi, Mashiach and Nassi Hador. Someone like that, regardless of how much he knows, is by definition not a talmid chochom.
I bet even you agree that no one alive today comes close to the rebbes yedias hatorah. And if you don’t agree, then Listen to more sichos.
You really are brainwashed, aren’t you? I know a number of people who are BH alive today and have more yedias Hatorah than the LR had. Furthermore, their yedias Hatorah is not crooked. For example, they know that the LR’s crazy heter of mitztaer that you can fall asleep is a reason to exempt you from sleeping in the sukkah. And that is just one example.
Finally, I WON’T beshum oifen listen to his sichos, as I find them crooked, misleading and self-aggrandizing.
Arso what makes you qualified?
You know people who have more yedias hatorah then the rebbe, but you refuse to see how much yedias hatorah the rebbe had . (מצטער סוכה listen to rav bridewitz – you hold of him? He speaks about the heter. By the way you sleep in a suckah? )
That’s called טמטום המוחsechel: That’s called טמטום המוח
Of course it is. Anything that disagrees with your view on Lubavich is timtum hamo’ach, and mevazeh talmidei chachamim and anything else you decide. Regardless of the fact that you don’t (or can’t?) rebut logically or with Torah sources anything we say.
You are starting to get on my nerves. I’m only telling you that in case that’s what you want and I therefore want to make you happy.
@sechel
What does כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחר השכינה have to do with infallibility ?
Hamharher achar rabo means that he is meharhar that he made a mistake ?
Or that he bemeizid makes things up ?ומורא רבך כמורא שמים: מה מצות ה’ אינך רשאי להרהר אחריהם, ואפילו כשאין סברתך מסכמת להם. ותו שהרי גם בכל מקום הרי צריך שיהיה מורא שמים עליך, כמ”ש שויתי ה’ לנגדי תמיד. כ”כ ברבך לא תסתור דבריו, אפילו נראין דבריך מדבריו [כי”ד ר”מ ורמ”ב]. וגם בכל מקום אפילו שלא בפניו לא תחלוק עליו, רק תחשוב א”ע תמיד כיושב לפני רבך. וכדאמרינן [פסחים דנ”א ב’] אני ראיתי רבי יוחנן שאכל, אוכל בין בפניו ובין שלא בפניו. דכל המהרהר אחר רבו מהרהר אחר השכינה [כסנהדרין דק”י ע”א]. ותוכן כוונת דברי התנא, שכל המתעסק עם אדם, יחשבנו לאותו אדם
במדריגה יותר גבוה מאשר הוא באמת, דתלמידו יחשיבו כריעו, ולריעו כרבו, ולרבו יחשיב כאילו הוא יותר מאדם:
תפארת ישראל על משניותI wonder if ר מאיר thought אחר was doing wrong things
כל המהרהר אחר רבו…..
🤔
Wow! This is a first! A Lubavicher quoting the Tifferes Yisroel! Since when do Lubavichers hold of him?
I’m not sure why I’m going back to this. Maybe it is the connection to Purim that made me think about it last week.
CS: The Rebbe was quoting, in the very early years, at a small farbrengen, what a mashpia had said regarding the Chazon Ish, that even someone such as he, would be jealous in gan Eden of a little boy learning Chassidus (I hope I’m paraphrasing correctly.) the context was the greatness of Chassidus, not denigrating misnagdim.
. . .
This reminds me of another Chassidishe teaching that the loftiest Malach would give up everything for a single amen Yehei Shmei Rabba by a yid.(I don’t know whether that ‘teaching’ is factual, but I’ll run with it anyway.) The two are not comparable. A Malach has no bechira, so he is therefore perfect despite being willing to ‘give up everything…’. The Chazon Ish was human with a bechirah, and therefore saying that he is jealous in Gan Eden is indeed denigrating.
Now, if the Rebbe treated others outside lubavitch, disdainfully in general…
True he didn’t treat others outside Lubavich disdainfully, but he did treat other shitos disdainfully. I can’t be bothered now bringing proofs, but they are numerous.
@arso
They do not ‘hold’ of the tiferes yisrael.Rather , They are willing to ‘use’ the tiferes yisrael.
The chazon ish learned kol hatorah kulah, including kabalah, which is what chasidus aims to achieve.
He’s not jealous of a man who learned kabalah that was made accessible to a regular person, and certainly not of a child who mouths the words of ideas he has absolutely no shaychus with. For torah she baal peh, you need to understand what you’re learning for it to be a kiyum mitzvah.
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