Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

“Just btw tznius is not an ikkar hadaas. It’s one Mitzvah, like lashon hara and all the others..”

We should take a vote on which of these egregious statements fits into the categories of “most dangerous,” “most out of touch ” and “most deviant from mesorah”

In the lashon chazal, men are called tzadikim and women are called tznuos – it is THE ikar for a woman.

CS in regards to the clip of RAL Steinman getting annoyed at someone not wanting to admit certain children into their cheder: AFAIK, he said that there was one cheder for everyone in town. And this whole business of only perfect families allowing their kids to have contact was never a thing.

Right. And in Europe someone who wasn’t tzniusdik didn’t even want to send their kids to cheder. So he wasn’t talking about those types of families. He was talking about families that weren’t on a level of the “upper families”.

Just btw tznius is not an ikkar hadaas. It’s one Mitzvah, like lashon hara and all the others..

No! It’s avizraihu de’aroyos.

[The Chofetz Chaim] .. wrote that the Mitzvah of the worker getting paid on time doesn’t apply if the worker didn’t demand his wages. So we must also demand Moshiach or Hashem isn’t obligated either.

Does the worker have to DEMAND his wages, or does it suffice if he merely asks (nicely) for them?

Avira

“Recently, a bunch of rabbis broke off from the Crown Heights Beis Din and made their own kashrus agency, which now certifies Shor Habor, a meat company which i anyways avoided due to the possibility of god-in-a-body worshippers doing the shechitah.“

יש על מי לסמוך

Sorry about this edit but the info you are asking for has no tachlis

CS: Apparently you’re ignorant of the very early disagreement between the Alter Rebbe and his peers on the meaning of צדיק באמונתו יחי׳ה.

Can you give me a non-Lubavich source that tells us exactly in what way the Baal Hatanya’s colleagues differed to him regarding this passuk?

The Chofetz Chaim demanded Mashiach?! Do you have a source for that?

Sigh. It’s amazing how much Lubavitchers need to go in circles on this topic.

Chofetz Chaim on siddur, סימן קסח:
כמה פעמים ביום אנו מבקשים על הגאולה, אולם הבקשה בלבד אינה מספקת, יש לתבוע את הגאולה כפועל שכיר המבקש את שכרו, שהדין הוא שאם אינו תובע אין חיוב לתת את שכרו בו ביום. כן אנו צריכים לתבוע את גאולתנו

(For more about the Chofetz Chaim himself doing this, open חפץ חיים על התורה to the index “Moshiach” or “Geula” (I don’t have it in front of me). You will find several stories written by his student of the Chofetz Chaim’s intense demanding of the Geula.)

@CS
It’s only getting worse as the decades pass so until the Rabbinic leadership puts a full halt to it, all the justifications and arguments in the world won’t make it any more palatable.”

I’m sorry this bothers you, but meshichism can never be shut down, as what the Rabbonim think hashkafically cannot override the clear printed sichos of the Rebbe,
—
The only way forward , if so , is for the habad rabbinic leadership to open up a no holds barred discussion of their leaders personality.
How , even a great person , who had a lot to offer [in his hasidim’s eyes], is not infallible .

Not infallible , meaning that not everything emanating from him, is Gods Word mamash.
I know many people who we can learn from , but not every word of theirs is Gods Word.

This is not phitat kavod for their leader. He was human. And prone to mistakes. Does that mean that his followers cant learn from him ? Absolutely not.

Educating the next generation of habad children and newly minted BT’s is this vein , would a TREMENDOUS boon for klal yisrael, besides being much closer to accuracy and fact.

@arso
In ALL the seforim avodas habirurim is what is required since sheviras hakeilim, and when that is finished Mashiach arrives IMMEDIATELY. (Surprise, surprise! You can find all this on our erstwhile friend chabadpedia.)
big mekubal! you see one line (not even in the source as you say from Wikipedia) and ask kashos, it reminds me of the joke they say about litvaks

So nice you have nasty litvak jokes.  Edited.

CS,

“I’m sorry this bothers you, but meshichism can never be shut down”

It doesn’t bother me a bit, just understand that this nutty obsession is why so many people run away from chabad like it’s a virus.

@avira
The discussion was about the damage it does to the neshama, the alter rebbe quotes ghazal that it’s worse. And I brought to Regarding your statement about the damage internet does to the person. Now you change questions (like always) but by the way: Regarding how i would treet him. If I know someone that focuses on the bad in people, If I have hashpaa on him, I would suggest to him to go to therapy, it’s a really bad mida that also disturbs relationships etc .
Someone who kills someone I would probably get far away from him. But why did he kill someone? Because of lashon hara and motzi shem ra.
Just an example I would consider people who wrote publicly about chabad that they daven to the rebbe ch”v, and because of that caused such sins chinam and fights, and who knows what else, I would say they the the worst of the worst. Why is someone who kills someone so bad? I go with torah not logic,
Anyway see Tanya Derek 24-25 every avaira is AZ.

I wrote: In ALL the seforim avodas habirurim is what is required since sheviras hakeilim, and when that is finished Mashiach arrives IMMEDIATELY. (Surprise, surprise! You can find all this on our erstwhile friend chabadpedia.)

sechel replied: big mekubal! you see one line (not even in the source as you say from Wikipedia) and ask kashos

I don’t mind ad hominem attacks, but you missed the mark by miles here. I wrote “ALL the seforim…” and you replied that I saw one line from Wikipedia.

Suggestion: try to curb your anger when you don’t like something, and pay attention to what was said, not to what you would have liked to have been said.

And what a pity that the mods didn’t allow your Litvak jokes 🙁

“Someone who kills someone I would probably get far away from him. But why did he kill someone? Because of lashon hara and motzi shem ra.”

Or maybe because he’s a rasha? Lots of things make someone a rasha.

“Why is someone who kills someone so bad? I go with torah not logic,”

That you’re not going with logic is clearly on display, but chas veshalom to say you’re going with “Torah.”

Murder is one of the 3 chamuros that are yehereg velo yaavor. Lashon hora is not. Chazal say that a few things are “keilu” murder, same way they compare other aveiros to AZ or giluy arayos, as comparisons to show you how big the other, seemingly smaller sins are(like anger, etc..)

Yiddishe life is the most precious thing to Hashem. Risking it or chas veshalom taking it by will is an egregious sin against the person’s Creator. This is both Torah and logic.

“Anyway see Tanya Derek 24-25 every avaira is AZ.”

This is why you need a strong background in basic Torah before learning chasidus or “chasidis.” Every averah contains an element of AZ, namely that the sinner shows at that moment that he’s not listening to Hashem, who is right there while he’s sinning and constantly keeping him in existence while doing so.

But he obviously doesn’t mean that it’s exactly the same as AZ, because then every averah would be yereg velo yaavor and chayav misas beis din. any sinner would make wine treif etc…

You’re mixing up a dakusdike mussar/chasidus idea with basic hashkofa.

ALL the seforim – thats my point all you read was wikipedia. you sure leaened all the seofrim? if you learned tanya you would have the answer
avira – tanya explains different, see and of perek 25.
thats a big difference between a chasid chabad and (some) others. i come to torah without any pre conceptions. im open to whatever it says.
why is someone who lends with ribis have no chelek in olem haba?
see gemara in bava metzia they were making fun of david that he was over eshes ish, he said someone who was over ashes ish has a chelek in olem haba. hamalbim pnai chavoro brabim does not, see tosfos there. gotta go, good shabbos

Sechel, what dovid did was not an aveirah, but even so, he did teahuva for what it looked like. Also, this wasn’t a slip up on the baaleo lashon hora – this was something they were actively engaging in consistently.

Dovid’s rebuke has nothing to do with the practical, down to earth difference between a man who violates aishes ish and a person who makes an offensive joke in public. He was driving home the severity of what they were doing – because it’s very serious. But the path of teshuva for one who does such “frum” sins is much easier and quicker than a person who is steeped in tumah, such as arayos or shfichas damim. On a certain level, lashon hora/etc.. are worse – but only in some ways. That’s what the baalei musar write on such statements of chazal, that they’re bringing out a certain bechina, nekudah that needs to be stressed, but are not speaking about the practical differences. For example, there’s an element of avodah zara in every sin, but not every sin is literal, pashut avodah zara. There’s an element of AZ specifically in anger, eating chometz on pesach, and others, but they’re not literally AZ.

Yes chazal say that a person who lends on ribis has no techias hamaysim; what’s your point? That we should think there’s no logic in Torah? Of course there is! It’s on us to understand why a person who does that forfeits their eternity – do you think Hashem takes away olam haba, the purpose for which He made a person, easily and in a way that we’re not privy to? How are we supposed to avoid losing our olam haba if we’re not given the tools necessary to do so?

Hashem wants us to understand it as much as we possibly can. It’s not catholic dogma which is just recited by robots. At a certain point, we say we can’t understand some details, and we just say it’s a gezeras hakasuv, etc…were not talking about maskilim here who need to understand something rationally to acccept it. I’m saying there most definitely is a logic in Torah, just at a certain point it’s beyond our comprehension.

Sechel – you’re basically saying that chabad is better despite its communal problems because lashon hora is worse than everything else, and… there’s no lashon hora in crown heights? There’s less than elsewhere? How in the world would you know that?

But the entire premise is deflection; rather than admit your communitys faults you react defensively, because chabad must always be superior to everyone else – it’s twisted. If you’re even remotely frum you’d rather sit in a shul and close your ears to lashon hora than sit in a house of ill repute while giluy arayos is being committed. At least i hope you would.

@avira no that’s not at all my point. My point is that writing and talking (and thinking) about people not keeping tznius or using smartphones is doing worse than those people your talking about. Even if it would be true. Very simple.

@arso well said. could not have said it better!

“Chabad used to be about disseminating Chassidic teachings which the Baal HaTanya wrote, saying his Divrei Torah, etc. In America, Chabad started out with Shlichim going out and bringing the masses back to Judaism. These are goals which we share and do not contest.

But present-day Chabad has nothing to do with the above. Present-day Chabad has become a personal cult centered on the previous Lubavitcher Rebbe. Everything they do from beginning to end, revolves around this. They constantly project his image, talk about him and how great he was, how smart he was, how he was a better strategist than all the generals, that he was Mashiach. etc. This is the way people talk about a cult figure. There’s no room in Yiddeshkeit for a personality cult in which an individual is deified and glorified. Whether he was great or wasn’t great is immaterial. There have been many great people in Judaism. The personality cult of glorifying an individual person, giving him unique titles, elevating the shape of the building he was active in. etc., has no place in Yiddishkeit.”

@coffee addict. anyone who learned chafatz chaim knows this claim in non sense.

@coffeeroomguy: seems like you hang around chabad a lot. thats called motzi shem ra!

@arso. its so important to keep people way from chabad, where is the MESORA for that? 2) which gadol wrote anything against chabad in the past 10 yrs? if you bring me people from 30 yrs ago, well seems like today they realized the claims were false, cuz if not, and chabad is keeping to grow, where are the gedolim today that care about yiddishkiet? they should be speaking about how bad chabad is to keep people away. and dont bring me a claim that some gadol SAID something to a private person, 1) its asur to be mikabel such a thing 2) if he would care, he would be more public about it.
The global population of Chabad has been estimated to be 90,000–95,000 adherents, accounting for 13% of the global Hasidic population. However, up to one million Jews are estimated to attend Chabad services at least once a year. (wikipedia)
and if you really only mean litoeles, you will have much more influence if you go to the gedolim and encourage them to sign a kol koreh to the jews to stay away from chabad, cuz it seems its forgotten about, (besides for a few board soles on tyw)
disclaimer: why chabad tries to impluence others to learn chassidus is not because we think we are better, its because we know we have something very precious and because of our love for other jews we want to share it. just like if you would hear of a good credit card offer, you would tell your friends. anyone who has been around knows this, whoever has other misconceptions about chabad and who thinks were a cult, obviously just knows chabad from misnagdishe motzi shem ra. in the time of the magid and the baal hatanya they also called chassidim the “kat” – cult for this reason!

When the Messiah of all mankind died, some 60k people attended the funeral.
When R moshe Feinstein died [some important snag rabbi] died some 300k people attended.
When R shlomo z Auerbach died [another snag rabbi] some 600k people attended
When R ovadia died some 900k – 1 million attended.

Lesson to be taken.
Mainsteam yhudim may attend habad services once in a while , but still know clearly who they rever as a gadol be yisrael

edited