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sechel: Tznius: would having a live Rebbe fix the issue? You guys have so many compliments on our Rebbe, now you say the issue is we don’t have a live Rebbe?!
If you had a live rebbe there would be a definite chance that he would lay down some rules. A dead rebbe can’t lay down rules.
It’s like the internet. Other chatzeiros have rules about internet usage that originate from their rebbes. Lubavich only has rules suggested by rabbis and mashpi’im.
sechel to me: demanding moshiach – like we’re going to hashem and threatening him? Like the dor haflaga that’s the accusation? I don’t see how that even makes sense.
We’re not discussing what anyone on this thread said about “we want Mashiach now”. We were talking about what the LR said (and I remember it being said) about someone complaining about demanding Mashiach, and the LR did indeed say we should demand Mashiach.
Avira > Because they tolerate
It looks like your view of the community is more of a sect that upholds high standards. What do you do with the rest of the community? Put everyone in cherem. With all enthusiasm for movements and uniformity, we forget that there are real people out there who are traditional/Masorti who are part of the Jewish community. You see this more in Sephardic circles that did not experience haskala and subdivisions by shades of observance.
If someone is even openly violating shabbat – you do not call him to read Torah, but you do let him into the shul (otherwise, the question of kibud will not arise). With chabad, it is claimed here simply that they are transferring from a monolithic movement to a general community. Whether this is so or whether this is a good or bad, I do not know. But it is a normal thing to have, and hopefully there will be leadership to deal with issues. If “rebbe” title is verbotten, use “gaon” or “rebbe’s talmid”.
Sechel – ever hear of reductive arguments? Please reread my post. No feelings involved at all; one affects the community deeply and the other is an individual nisayon of shmiras aynayim much like a billboard poster. No one has a relationship with the cleaning ladies more than “thank you,” or “excuse me can you take care of…”
Cs – i can only imagine what was edited out if you actually wrote that people who are not chasidish “care in general less about yiddishkeit” – if by yiddishkeit you mean cultish messianic hysteria over a deceased rabbi, then you’re right, but that applies to every branch of chasidus besides Lubavitch too.
If you want to see non-chasidish jews caring about yiddishkeit; where was Lubavitch in the city field event, where klal yisroel came together in all of its stripes to acknowledge and accept on themselves to not use unfiltered internet? Where is Lubavitch in the siyum hashas every 7 years, when klal yisroel celebrates its cherished Torah and their completion of the gemara? Where is Lubavitch kollelim, where idealistic young families sacrifice a life of material success to be davuk in Hashem and His Torah day and night, not just as a means of becoming a missionary in Hawaii?
Klal yisroel cares about Torah. They do not, however, care about personality cults.
Aaq, if you’ve ever lived in a Torah community, you’d know the answer to what you’re asking. I’m not making suggestions as to how to treat sinners. I am explaining what Torah communities do to someone who is oblivious to anything outside of crown heights and kfar chabad.
We don’t put every sinner in cherem. But we don’t let our kids play with their children, we don’t accept them into our schools, we don’t have much to do with them if they’re consistently sinning in an open way. We don’t consider them part of the community, but we won’t throw them out of shul either.
It has nothing to do with haskalah – sefardim don’t always do this because they’re afraid of intermarriage. But they do maintain a level of separation, especially if we’re talking about yeshiva sefardim like in Ateret. Non Yeshiva people, who grew up with Magen David co ed schools being the norm, are just not that frum to begin with. Their actions don’t represent a Torah community’s hanhagah.
Cs,
Thanks for the generalization (if that isn’t שקר & שנאת חינם I don’t know what is)
What about davening bzman? I know there are “heterim” but I know lubavitchers that aren’t using them and still daven late
“It’s like the internet. Other chatzeiros have rules about internet usage that originate from their rebbes. Lubavich only has rules suggested by rabbis and mashpi’im.”
So what’s the problem, lubavitch takes mashpiim very seriously the Rebbe said it’s a bakasha nafshis and even stronger.
In general the Rebbe had a different approach to radio and technology that everything in the world was created for the kovod of hashem. The Rebbe said (I’m pretty sure) that it’s kefirs to say something was created by the Satan. That doesn’t mean everyone should use internet, the Rebbe spoke about this look in the maftachos for more details.
Hashem told Moshe he wants to destroy the yidden and make Moshe into the great nation, Moshe stood up for the yidden. This is chabads way, not to push everyone who doesn’t fit in out box out rather to be mikarev them as it says in Tanya perek 32. (Kedushas Levi in parshas chukas and somewhere else I forgot also says that a manhig is someone who sees the good in Jews, not who rebukes)Sechel, we’re not discussing radio waves and telephones. We’re talking about the equivalent of hitting a neshoma with a machine gun over and over again and then shooting a rocket propelled grenade at it for good measure.
Whatever hashkofa points there are about the “good in everything” doesn’t change what Internet access does and facilitates. It has no equal in literally all of human history.
If you want to wax philosophically about being m’aleh nitzotzos while people commit all 3 chamuros and lose their eternity – go ahead. It’s just out of touch. And despite my critcism i am 100% sure that if the Lubavitcher rebbe were alive today, he would have been just as outspoken against the internet as Lakewood and satmar. So would any European, simple Jew. It’s not a complicated issue.
Avaira: at the Citi field event there was a clear peak from rav vosner that it’s Asur to use internet other than for business, and even then not in the home. And more limitations. Seems like the visitors of the yeshiva world are following that psak very well??
Why do we need to go to a statium to hear a simple psak?
The bais din in chabad in crown heights and in eretz yisroel put out their psak. Which I amagine all follow (being Dan likaf zchus)
I have classmates who grew up on shlichus and we’re friends of non religious kids, bh they were mekarev many yidden, and those kids in my opinion became stronger in their yiddishkiet.
This idea that the shluchim and there kids are effected negativity, based on what I see (my classmates in school and yeshiva) is totally made up from beginning to end. I don’t read all the lashon hara and Motzi Shem Ra on the internet, but even if there are some stories, there are also many in frum closed off cumminitiesSechel, not every individual community accepted that aspect of rav vosner’s psak – the issue is that chabad continues to not condemn recreational and even unrestricted internet access, instead plays on these insufferable talking points of “the good in everything”
Yes there was a psak from the CH beis din. But this is an issue that requires mobilization; did you help russian jewry by just issuing statements? Did klal yisroel defeat reform, haskalah, zionism, karaism, tzedukim, etc….with one psak beis din? No.
And the proof to the disingenuousness of your statement is that chabad ks extremely into activism to reach its goals. If it cared about kedushah as a community as much as it cares about putting leather boxes and straps on men who are defiled with shiksas, it would do something about it. But it doesn’t.
Being chabad I learned to be Dan likaf schus. Just because someone has internet doesn’t mean he does avairos. 2) one of the reasons of the revealation of chassidus in the later generations is because of the nisyonos, so it’s pretty clear in chabad that the way to keep away from these nisyonos is thru learning and doing the avoda of chassidus. Every person has his mashpia to guide him wether or not he should have internet based on his work, shlichus etc. A few yrs before the asifa in 5772, I remember schools sending letters to parents about the dangers of internet and to get filters. I don’t know any lubavitchers who use internet without a filter.
People also said that the shluchim that went in middle of nowhere with no religious community will not stay frum, we see that b”h the past 70 yrs they raised frum and chassidish kids. This is because they have the koach of the mishaleach – the Rebbe as explained in maamarim and sichos. So they have extra kochos when using the internet for kiruv.
And btw again same as tznius, I personally don’t see internet more common by chabad then in other communitys. Meaning in yeshiva no one has, people involved in chinuch in chabad most don’t have, who have? Business men and shlucchim. By other communitys it’s the same, just i.e. by litvish more go to kolel, so most don’t have there. But the ones that go to business is the same thing.
If you know what the Rebbe would do, maybe you be the Rebbe! If a Rebbe is only someone with common sense, we have plenty of that in chabad.“ If a Rebbe is only someone with common sense, we have plenty of that in chabad.“
Yeah just ask the bachurim who made a tunnel at 770 and those who haven’t called them out (btw I think this was the whole reason for the previous thread)
I have to say “interesting” thread
One attack one chabad, answered, another, answered another, shown that the attack doesn’t start, another, again ….
This is my message for all critics (of any Jew) Just focus on your shlamos and if you believe in spreading chassidus so spread it, don’t focus on other people’s issues as I mentioned before it’s a mirror, the only other reason why hashem allows you to see it is to rebuke him directly in the way it says in sh”u, not to gossip and speak lashon hara about him. Done.
Hamiskabed bikilyon chavairo… Besides lashon hara as mentioned before is kineged kulom even thinking bad about another Jew is included in this (Tanya igeres hakodesh) and even worse, it destroys the neshama more than speaking (and more than watching the worst stuff on the internet (cuz it’s kineged a”z giloy arroyos and shfichas damim all together)Having unfiltered internet is ITSELF an aveirah, and not a small one. rav chaim kanievsky wrote that such a person does not have olam haba, regardless of whether or not they fall into the trillions of traps that await those who enter, with the flick of one button.
There’s nothing to be dan lekaf zchus. And since when is being dan lekaf zchus a Lubavitch thing? It’s a mishnah! I do it too. But I’m not supposed to put my head in the sand and pretend that unfiltered internet is ok or that it doesn’t lead, invariably, to sheol tachtis.
Arso > It’s great that that woman does so much chesed, but unfortunately it’s really terrible that she is not tzniusdik.
I am not sure are you addressing 3 yo or 18 yo kids, but why do you need to connect these 2 issues together and also address judging every person you meet? If you see someone doing chesed, discuss that act, you don’t need to either approve or discount everything that person did. Hope the kid sees enough positive examples at other times.
This whole thread seems totally fruitless to me.
As long as the habad apologists will not agree about the basic facts, how can we try and argue about the merits or otherwise of those facts?Question to be asked is the following : Do we all agree that habad came up with new stuff in the last 60-70 years ?
Yes or no ?Did habad at anytime in its 250 years plus of existence at any time or location organize a gathering for hachtarat meleh hamashiach ?
Yes or no ?Did habad or any of its rebeim , including the other offshoots/branches [like niezin,liadi kapust etc] ever have their rabanim issue a public kol koreh for the public to accept their leader as mashiach ?
Yes or no?Those questions do not pertain to opinions.
They pertain to facts.
Facts are either true or untrue.So to all of you , honest people , out there – Can we first get an unqualified and simple one word response to those questions ?
.“it destroys the neshama more than speaking (and more than watching the worst stuff on the internet (cuz it’s kineged a”z giloy arroyos and shfichas damim all together)”
As one of the gedolei yisroel said regarding neo chabad(who shall remain nameless), chochma, bina, daas…but no sechel!
We have a Lubavitcher saying that a holy jew who stumbles one time in the averah of lashon hora, is worse than a person who murders, commits adultery, or worships baal.
Get real. Chazal mean no such thing and you know it. Lashon hora is a huge averah, but do you honestly think a person who murders another Jew has less teshuva to do and his neshoma isn’t as tainted as someone who can’t hold in a juicy piece of lashon hora in the mikveh?
Seriously.
edited
CS, I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.
But now you have the whole Chasidus more Rebbe-centric than anyone else. And you constantly hear about his greatness and status. But if you’re putting him up there—way more than Peilischer Chasidim—how can you also say that his influence is limited?
Which is it?
CS: Interesting. Why did your relatives become lubavitch?
They were born Lubavich and have never strayed from it.
what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval.
If you proclaim Nevuah you have to prove it by predicting exact occurrences (unless, as far as I remember, another known Navi declares you a Navi). If someone can’t, he is, I believe, chayav misa bidei Shamayim. If someone can, then someone who doesn’t listen to him is chayav. I don’t think there’s any halfway.
The Rebbe told us all the sparks have been elevated already
That has always bothered me. If ALL the sparks have been elevated, then Mashiach should have come. I know the LR said that it therefore makes absolutely no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come, but to me, and those with whom I have discussed it, that sounds like nonsense at the very least, and apikorsus at the very worst.
Unless you live in Israel I find this hard to believe that someone comes up to you and starts off with this
I have had it happen on three continents!
I’m sorry that this has been your experience. Ironic considering your relatives aren’t Chassidish by your descriptions.
The relatives I was talking about in the story about their Chabad House, and the people I have sat with at simchos, are not connected.
CS: I saw Rav Shteinman A”H, say that such an attitude is pure gaava, and he or someone else litvish shared that there was no such thing in the cheders of pre war Europe.
I saw that clip, and as far as I remember it wasn’t about kids whose parents aren’t tzniusdik or who didn’t keep important ikarei hadas. It was about kids who weren’t top in learning and maybe also in behavior. If I’m wrong, please show me where I can see that clip.
I suppose this litvak didn’t know the chofetz chaim was the same:)
The Chofetz Chaim demanded Mashiach?! Do you have a source for that?
To Avirah who wrote “One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them” you replied: So you keep all the mitzvos perfectly? You never fail at even one of hilchos shabbos? Shmiras einayim? Lashon hara? Etc etc?
No. We frum people do lots of aveiros, at least I do, Rachmono litzlon, but we do not ‘abandon’ even one of them. We are nichshal and hope to be better. If someone, on the other hand, marries a shiksa, he is abandoning a mitzva, not just being nichshal.
Why do you think emphasizing the negative is better and produces better results?
From literally decades of experience with kids and young adults: it works! When a kid sees that the person does something blatantly wrong, e.g. doesn’t dress appropriately, and you stress that the person has so many good middos, the kid more often than not understands that the good deeds are mechaper on the bad, and for a kid to think that is terrible and extremely harmful.
CS: I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.
Have you ever heard of a straw man argument? If you haven’t here is the definition: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.
In simple terms, rather than arguing with the facts, you represent the facts in a manner which makes it easy for you to dispute them.
“Peilisher chassidim” and their beliefs are something invented by Lubavich, so that Lubavich can say, “We are much better.” I know of no “Peilisher chassidim” who have ever said that the Rebbe is the one who does all the work!
But Lubavich is no stranger to straw man arguments. Just read the Memoirs of the Rayatz and see how the whole Litvishe world is represensted. Basically, stupid shallow people who thought they were tzaddikim.
It’s the same with mussar. Everyone in Lubavich knows that mussar seforim just put you down, while chassidus lifts you up. Strange because none of the mussar seforim I learn have ever put me down. Can you show me, for example, one place in Orchos Tzaddikim that puts you down?
CS
“The Rebbe taught that Geula is a gradual process that we bring through our avoda in golus.
Therefore, if you will only do what you should due to external communal pressure/ Halacha policeman etc., you are not ready for geula! Or should I say, you are not living in a geula mind space/ life style.“
A rebbe is a משפיע not a policeman (I don’t know any rebbe/Rav that’s a “policeman”
You are lacking a משפיע that can’t guide you in the right direction
I don’t see how this was different than my previous post that you commented about
CS,
“…balance the imbalance that “mainstream” lubavitch has by allowing the hush hush mentality, which is definitely not where we should be at today”
I have no idea what your word-salad means but regardless, this nutty mashichist obsession is most certainly widespread and destroys much of the good done by chabad. It’s only getting worse as the decades pass so until the Rabbinic leadership puts a full halt to it, all the justifications and arguments in the world won’t make it any more palatable.
@arso
If you proclaim Nevuah you have to prove it by predicting exact occurrences (unless, as far as I remember, another known Navi declares you a Navi). If someone can’t, he is, I believe, chayav misa bidei Shamayim. If someone can, then someone who doesn’t listen to him is chayav. I don’t think there’s any halfway.
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the navi sheker gets Mitah be beit din .
not listening to navi emet is bidei shamayim.According to [warped] neohabad theology , their own rebbi should [chvsh] be hayav mitah bebeit din.
Their rabanim claimed [not the so called ‘hateful’ critics of habad] in the journal kfar H, that the proof of their rebbi’s nevuah is the fact that he predicted no one will be hurt in Israel during the Gulf War in 1991.
Rambam writes clearly that even if one of the details does not come true , it is clear that he is navi sheker. And hayav mitah bebet din.
There is no half way. At least in Rambam.They [or their leader] tried to elevate their leader to the navi status of the Rambams level.
Anyone honest enough will agree.
CS is attempting to keep the cake and eat it.what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval.
—-
Wrong.
If you bring proof thats enough .
Source ? rambam hil yesodei hatora [sefer hamada]
no mention of any rabbinical approval.—
btw. habad rabanim claimed that their leader has nevua .
this was publicised by habad rabanim.
Includes automatic hiyuv mitah for klal yisrael for not listening.
And automatic hiyuv mitah bebeit din for claiming it besheker.tb: <emthe navi sheker gets Mitah be beit din .
not listening to navi emet is bidei shamayim.Thanks. I figured I’d get it wrong from memory… and I did.
Without a rebbe, chabad continues to fall into disarray even in its basic rabbinic functions. Recently, a bunch of rabbis broke off from the Crown Heights Beis Din and made their own kashrus agency, which now certifies Shor Habor, a meat company which i anyways avoided due to the possibility of god-in-a-body worshippers doing the shechitah.
CS: She isn’t doing Chessed because she isn’t tznius- her Chessed is an expression of her Neshama…
The point being discussed in this story is not the way you should feel about the woman, it’s the way you’re being mechanech your kids. When an adult sees someone not-tzniusidk doing some great chesed – or a similar scenario – he can look at the good on its own. But your daughter doesn’t work that way. She sees everything, and as much as you may want to think that she thinks like you, and is discerning, she is much more impressionable. Any comment you make that could be taken by your daughter as condoning the non-tznius – even though you certainly have no intention of condoning it – may be taken by her as condoning it.
That’s why you have to ALWAYS be negative about the aspect you don’t want your daughter to accept. In decades of dealing with young people I have seen many people go completely off R”L, and many go partly off – some of them relatives, unfortunately – and it is nearly always because of parents/family expressing the “good side” of the person who is not frum.
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