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I have been noticing something about many of the posts here which discuss chutzpa.
It seems almost like some posters are treating it as if you have a right to not be treated with chutzpa.
I disagree.
Nobody is entitled to more respect than anyone else.
The reason we respect ?????? ?????, teachers,parents, and older people, is because it is good for our own middos. It has nothing to do with their feelings, wishes, or what they deserve.
For that reason, when somebody demands extra respect, it should be out of concern for the other person. If it is not, then it is just your bad middos, or more likely, your low self esteem.
One way to find out which one is motivating you, is whether you really are so concerned for that person in other matters. If you are not, you are probably not motivated by that here either, and it is really just bad middos or low self esteem.
popa_bar_abba:
Not that you need me to agree, but I think you’re correct.
I think that people whom we are supposed to stand up for, are supposed to seek to walk the route which will have the least amount of people standing up for them. Meaning, we are supposed to seek the least amount of honor..
I agree with you by a talmid chacham who can’t be mevater on kavod haTorah. But everyone else can be mevater on their kavod which to me indicates that it is their right to do with it as they see fit.
I’m not saying that it isn’t also good for the honorer’s middos. But that the main part seems to be the right of the honoree.
Agree with your disagreement.
we must show a certain basic amount of respect to any human being. that is simple kavod habrios.
then there are people to whom we are required to show extra respect i.e. a parent, a talmid chochom, an elderly person.
if you WANT to do more than the situation requires, wonderful.
if you want to give up on the basic respect you deserve, you can decide that for yourself. If it comes from a healthy place, it is good for your middos to be mevater.
but I don’t think it is REQUIRED. If someone takes something that is rightfully yours, you are entitled to try to get it back from them. You have to act properly, but you can stand up for your rights. If someone steals from you, causes you physical harm, etc. you are entitled to seek justice. In the proper way, through civil conversation, beis din, etc.
You are required to treat others respectfully, but the Torah does not require you to accept other people’s abusive behavior. “Turn the other cheek” is from a different religion.
I think there are two components here:
1)The halachic requirement
2)The relationship itself
Even if a parent is mochel on his kavod I definitely think that a person is misaken his middos by standing up for the parent.
Is kibud av a din on me or on my father? Meaning, if my father is mochel on his kavod do I no longer have a mitzvah of kibud av? Or do I still have a mitzvah of kibud av, but I won’t be oyver by not standing up for him?
I would think that it is the second. The nature of a parent/older person etc. is intrinsic to the parent/older person vis a vis the child/youngster. You can’t separate the ‘parent’ from the ‘person’ from the aspect of the child, there is only the aspect of ‘parent’. Whatever the parent does with respect to the child has to always be approached with the perception of ‘parent’.
So too, age is as inseparable from a person as the color of his eyes. The relationship between a youngster and an older person has to always reflect that.
They are all people, but one of them is wearing an immovable ‘crown’ on his head and the other isn’t. By virtue of that crown, he deserves honor.
From the aspect of the halacha and the parent/older persons’ own tikkun hamidos, I would imagine they should not feel slighted.
But from the aspect of the nature of the relationship it is understandable and I would argue their right to feel slighted.
Trumah is not comparable because you are not required to give Terumah to a specific kohen, he can’t mun you for it. You do have to give kavod to a specific parent.
The mitzvah of tefillin is not for kavod hatefillin but for the toeles the person gets for wearing them. Kibud av is for the kavod of the father and their is also toeles to practicing it.
The ?????? I think comes from the relationship itself, irrespective of the mitzvah.
I agree that it is bad middos to feel insulted, but at the same time, it I think it is also their right. But that is their problem. My problem is to make sure that they don’t get put to that test to begin with.
Again, I’m separating the mitzvah from the relationship.
Dama ben Nesinah didn’t have a mitzvah of kibud av, yet he was still rewarded. I think this is because regardless of the mitzvah there is still this inalienable relationship that exists and he exemplified it.
By relationship I mean state of association between two entities.
Parents, the aged and teachers are givers. They give over chinuch, life experience and wisdom. Children, the young and students receive those things.
The nature of the relationship between a giver and a receiver is that the giver is higher than the receiver. Try to pour from a carton of milk on the floor into the cup on the table.
The nature of the association between a parent and child is that the parent is above the child. By virtue of being ‘higher’, they command respect. That is the nature of respect- it is given to those above us.
If I had to say where the ‘right’ to command respect comes from I would say by virtue of attaining the higher position.
someone once went to a gadol and complained that his child was constantly transgressing kibbud av v’em. the gadol said that the man was transgressing putting an obstacle before a blind man – why was he demanding so many things from his child?
binah:
I am not saying that a parent should be makpid on their kavod especially if their children have a hard time with it. But that it the mitzvah aspect of it. I am trying to argue that the mitzvah aside there is still a midah tova to work on even if a parent was mochel.
p_b_a
Is hakaras hatov a mitzvah or a midah?
There is an element of hakaras hatov to a parent but I don’t think that this is where the parent gains his right to respect. Hakaras hatov can be between peers as well. And and aged person is deserving of respect regardless of whether he did a favor or not.
From the bechinah of the mitzvah (if hakaras hatov is a mitzvah), I would ask the same thing as earlier- if a person is mevater do I still have the mitzvah?
If you bumped it for me, I didn’t answer because I don’t know what else to say. I’ve tried to explain what I think is correct and you disagree, so I guess ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????
pba: are you saying that the parent/teacher getting upset that kid didn’t respect them is due to bad middos and not l’shem shamayim?
if so, of course.
but if, you’re arguing, that kid does not have to have respect to parents, etc. – i disagree.
(though i don’t believe respect necessarily means doing everything an adult says; the way some adults use it. kids do, at times, have a right to say “no”. i.e.they do not have to choose to help their parents every single time when asked.
i wouldn’t call that “lack of respect”; just that child is using their bechira to decide that they don’t feel like helping right now. parent can decide how to get kid’s help, but it’s not lack of kavod for child to refuse UNLESS they do so in disrespectful way (calling parents not nice names,etc.)
and, yeah, if they are chutzpadik, that is a “bein adom l’makom” problem; but, parents do have responsibility to teach children both “bein adom l’makom” and “bein adom l’chaveiro”.
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