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nice, squeak
SJS, I have a high regard for you. I would have no problem with my grandchildren being in the same class as your kids. But a few thoughts:
MO is not based on Rav Hirsch. For a good thumbnail sketch of MO I invite you to check out one of the last chapters in The Road Back, by Rabbi Mayer Schiller. While TIDE and MO both involve interfacing with the world, TIDE (ie Rav Hirsch) is not for synthesis, as is MO, but for using what the world has to offer as a “handmaiden”, i.e. an auxiliary to Torah. And modern Zionisim is another example of where they diverge.
Sara Schneirer knew she was doing something radical, which is why she went to the top for approbations.
(And while there are likely no reliable statistics on Chareidis and birth control, I wouldn’t say they don’t believe in it but they approach it differently.)
“when we say “Modern Orthodox” we do not mean “Contemporary Orthodox”. Rather, we are referring to a branch of “Orthodoxy” that compromises on Halacha.”
So R’ Shachter, R’ Willig, etc. compromise on halacha? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Why, WHY WHY, can’t you just realize that there are different ways, and not everybody follows your way.
SJSinNYC,
to be honest i only skimmed through your post. I was not reffering to modern as in technology. I was talking about the culture. about your last line, you may be right to some extent. I should really look into things before i post. and believe me that for every one comment i post, there are 9 more that i don’t because i’m not sure about. what i do post, i am pretty sure about and i do hear it from other people who are very knowledgeable. (a lot of times i know who originally said something but would rather not say because i did not confirm 100%) So feel free to disagree or agree with my posts.
yossiea, tell me yourself, do they? I know both Rabbonim that you mention personally. Very personally. And here’s what’s wrong with your argument.
Would you describe R’ Herschel Shachter as Modern Orthodox? I would not. His children are also not. The fact that he belongs to YU and is a Torahdig person does not allow Modern Orthodoxy to ride on his coattails and show off their split hooves. Ditto for R’ Willig himself.
If you are sitting at a shabbos table with single boys and girls or mishing at a singles kiddush and think that you’re OK because R’ Shachter and R’ Willig don’t compromise on halacha, well, you should think again. You are OK only if YOU are OK. And Modern Orthodoxy compromises on Halacha. I doubt that either Rov you mentioned will pull you out of gehinnom by your peyos.
squeak,
What peyos?
joseph that was mean and as TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY would say, it was not called for :}
“Would you describe R’ Herschel Shachter as Modern Orthodox? ” Yes, I would. He, BTW is a member of the RZA. He, along with R’ Willig would be considered (if the MO had ones like the Yeshivish) the MO Pope. Here is where you are getting things wrong, you see a Rav, who is respected and doesn’t “compromise” (whatever that means) and by default that means he must not be MO. Your mention of kiddush with single boys and girls is funny, because I don’t remember who said it, but one of the YU Roshei Yeshiva said that all weddings, even separate, should have a mixed table for the singles to meet.
It is one thing to discuss and debate, but when you state
“when we say “Modern Orthodox” we do not mean “Contemporary Orthodox”. Rather, we are referring to a branch of “Orthodoxy” that compromises on Halacha.”
and
“And Modern Orthodoxy compromises on Halacha.”
it just shows what agenda you have and how biased you are against people that don’t follow your thinking. If anything, one can arguable state that it is the yeshivish people who compromise on halacha.
Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch is the antithesis of the MO.
I know the difference between TIDE and MO, but TIDE led the way for MO. THey took R’ Hirsch’s philosophies in a different path. But he was the stepping stone.
I was educated by a MO Rabbi who had close ties to Reb Moshe and Rav Soloveitchik. I went to Stern for 1 year (it wasn’t for me) and transfered out to engineering school.
As for modern: modernity encompasses many branches and that includes technology. Truth be told, you could make a far better case to leaving technology out of Judaism to prevent many of our current issues more than leaving out modern science and mathematics.
Squeak, as for “If you are sitting at a shabbos table with single boys and girls or mishing at a singles kiddush and think that you’re OK because R’ Shachter and R’ Willig don’t compromise on halacha, well, you should think again. You are OK only if YOU are OK” – this is a statement that comprises ALL OF JUDAISM.Just because your Rav is doing things right, doesnt mean that you are. MO is no exception to this rule!
MO does not compromise on halacha. Yes, some people within MO are either ignorant or just don’t care and break halacha. This isn’t novel – its within ALL branches of orthodoxy.
If you know Rav Shachter, why not ask him if he considers himself MO? I’m curious to his answer – but just realize, his clientele is all MO and goes to him for their questions.
Its such a shame that there are so many right wing people who just bash MO as being anti-halacha. It shows the true ignorance of them.
ujm said all that needs to be said. Don’t try to steal what you have perverted.
As for the rest, I believe what I said but I could not care less to debate it because nothing I will say will convince you.
Modern orthodoxy is about compromising halacha. Rav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav) states that the essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative.
Joseph,
Wasn’t it R’ Aharon who compromised halacha when he set up a kollel system in Lakewood?
David Shick was Yeshivish. The Reiss boys were Yeshivish, the Spinka Rebbe is Chassidish, Kolko is Yeshivish, Mondrowitz is Chassidish. Am I now safe to say that Yeshivishism and Chassidishism condones molestation and thievery?
Shalom Aleichem,
I am new to YWN/Coffee Room, in fact this is just my second post.
I saw this and had a question, “Rav Soloveitchik never promoted breaking halacha either. Neither do the MO rabbonim (I would exclude R’ Avi Weiss because he is not really MO).”
Where do you put Rabbi Avi Weiss and his yeshiva? He came out of YU, after all.
Mod! No names please! These are all jews!
yossiea, I don’t address myself to reshoyim such a yourself who are mevazeh Gedolim berabim, as you have done on numerous threads on this site.
Sjnyc,
What you arnt understanding is that most of the peopole you are debating here didnt reach the conclusions they have by really thinking the issues through and weighing the proofs and arguments.
They beleive what there rebbonim tell them and they beleive that there rabbonim are always right just because they do.
Even if you would show them that the facts are that there rabbonim are wrong (as was done with science issues and other issues) they would still for the most part think that there rabbonim are right no amount of arguments will change that.
SJS I find you to be very articulate in all your posts. Although once or twice (if that)I may have disagreed with a point or two, I think you express yourself well, and I can appreciate your hashkafa.
Yossilea, you forgot that Lanner is MO. So was the late Judah Feinerman. So is Ken Gribetz. Ditto for Ryan Karben. And so was Bernard Bergman, who is still considered avi avois hatuma even in the world of mechalelei Hashem. Does that mean MO condones molestation/abuse, stealing insurance premiums, political corruption, adultery, perversion and mistreating the elderly?
Bringing up these lowlifes, whichever community they desecrated with their presence, serves no purpose; they are everywhere and will be everywhere as long as people have a yetzer horo.
aryeh.in.tenn,
I guess you’re really new here.
Any MO person who does anything wrong, they are not really MO.
Any yeshivish/chassidish etc person that does wrong it is because they are yeshivish/chassidish and that means that yeshivish/chassidish crowds condone their actions.
“Where do you put Rabbi Avi Weiss and his yeshiva? He came out of YU, after all. “
So did R’ Miller.
Just because someone is a student doesn’t mean they represent the school. Just like David Shick and Mondrowitz, etc. are “students” of Yeshivish/Chassidish, it doesn’t mean they represent. The same is true of MO, even though it is very hard for some people to realize that.
Squeak said: “And while “contemporary” rabbonim are ALL by definition, “modern”, when we say “Modern Orthodox” we do not mean “Contemporary Orthodox”. Rather, we are referring to a branch of “Orthodoxy” that compromises on Halacha. “
Thank you for the clarification. Now I know that despite what I have always thought, I am not MO. Since, I try to never compromise halacha, I must be chareidi. Do you know where I can find a nice black hat?
Since Squeak was publicly mevazeh a talmid chochom (Rav Soloveichik ZT”L who he referred to by his English initials) Squeak compromises halacha and must be MO. Since you don’t need it any more, can I have your hat?
Yossiea,
you said,
“Wasn’t it R’ Aharon who compromised halacha when he set up a kollel system in Lakewood?”
What halacha was compromised by setting up a kollel system in lakewood?
Rabbosai, yossiea is rasha merusha who is mevazeh Gedolim berabim, in multiple threads on this site.
Joseph,
Do you think calling people names when your “arguments” fall apart makes you any more convincing?
If you beleive so strongly that yossiea’s statements are false or wrong please explain why in a clear logical way.
dd
you wear a hat??? ouch i’m gonna refrain from saying something nasty. (mod you should be proud of me – even though you probably would’ve let it through anyway :})
“Rabbosai, yossiea is rasha merusha who is mevazeh Gedolim berabim, in multiple threads on this site.”
i have been trying in vain for the moderators to put a stop to this wickedness.
either they feel these posts are of no serious harm, or they are just too busy to take notice
Being mevazeh a talmid chochom is pure apikorsus. See Sanhedrin 99b, Rambam’s psak, Kesef Mishna, teshuvah 3 – 14.
Re: the question of separate seating at the Sheva Brachos – many people seat their guests that way ALL the time. I personally dislike separate seating and would not do it myself, but I can respect that the people who do so, feel it is proper for them. I don’t like separate seating simchas, either, but is up to the balabus, what he chooses to do.
and Chofetz Chaim Hilchos Loshon Hora 8-4.
dd – you spout utter foolishness. What gave you the idea that charedi is about how one dresses? It is about following shuras hadin. If you do, then indeed you SHOULD count yourself as charedi. Why do you assume I wear a black hat? Utter foolishness.
If anyone wants to attack me, take your best shot, I’ll take all punches. But if C’V someone starts up with Talmidei Chachomim and Gedolei Hador, I will be first in line for the defense. No hold bars.
If you feel a need to attack someone, use me as your punching bag. NOT THE GEDOLIM!
just by the way:
“No hold bars”
*no holds barred*
it means in a wrestling match, no holds are disallowed ;-]
Joseph,
In regards to bizui talmidei chachomim, perhaps you might want to have a word with your friend squeak.
Yossiea-
I consider myself MO in ideology, but in response to your statement:
“Wasn’t it R’ Aharon who compromised halacha when he set up a kollel system in Lakewood?”
I just can’t stomach those words. I’d side a bit here with Joseph’s view of this statement (although I wouldn’t go as far as “rasha” language) – you just cannot put something like that out there about R’ Aharon zt’l, without whom it is quite possible there’d be very, very little Torah learning in the US, without AT LEAST explaining yourself!!
Aryeh, Avi Weiss may have been educated in YU, but it doesnt mean that he encompasses what MO teaches. Some PP have expanded on this, but if you want me to, I will also.
000646 its a shame that many people on this site (not all) seem to just say “Well, if my Rav says it, there is no way someone else could have a different opinion and also be right, so anyone who disagrees with my Rabbi is unequivically wrong.”
oomis, thank you! I find I usually agree with you as well! I find it so hard to transmit what I am trying to say without tone/inflection, so I really try to think about my words (with few exceptions, including my nasty comment to intellegent).
Any MO person who does anything wrong, they are not really MO.
Any yeshivish/chassidish etc person that does wrong it is because they are yeshivish/chassidish and that means that yeshivish/chassidish crowds condone their actions.
Intellegent, that is not what any of us are saying. I will assume you meant it tongue in cheek, but if not, please let me know and I will respond properly.
Joseph, your fake piety is sickening.
SJS,
If Feivel, squeak, brooklyn19, intellegent, Zalman, Will Hill, or any one of a number of posters here said that, it would be food for thought and worth seriously pondering. But coming from you or your cadre of posters, I accept it as a high compliment and a hearty laugh.
Please keep them coming.
SJSinNYC,
read it with sarcasm. it is true that that is the attitude.
dd – I wasn’t intending to reply to your comment on my use of the initials “JB” to describe one of the leaders of your sect. I am comfortable using the initials only, just as we were taught to do in my youth. My instruction comes from people infinitely many levels above your childishness. Of course this will disturb you, and I’m sorry, but I won’t refer to him as “Rav Soloveichik”. There are plenty of other Soloveichiks worthy of that honorific, and I don’t want them confused.
And if you call that mevazeh talmid chochom then I must defer to those who instructed me. They were of his generation and worthy of judging him.
dare I wnter this den of lions ? (more like toohless lions, I fear).
For starters, a few corrections:
R”S.R.Hirsch shittah was WAY MORE secular than Yeshiva University today. Check out the curriculum of his Jewish school in Frankfurt. There was way more “limudie chol’ than limudei kodesh. The essence of Hirschian philosophy is that Yiddishkeit can prosper amongst the gentiles even while having to accept some of their constrictions on work and life (for example, German sermons and university education). All this can happen ,he maintained, WITHOUT giving up the trappings of Orthodoxy.
This is precisely what Yeshiva University proclaims and practices. Hence, Hirscian Judaism is ABSOLUTELY the precursor of so-called “modern Orthodoxy”. Abd all the roshei yeshiva in YU are of the same idea- they follow Hirsch in his steadfast defense of halacha- HIS understanding of halacha- yet accept that living amongst the gentiles, one has to adapt some their ways.It is ludicrous to say that Hirsch would side with the chareidim today. He was the quintessential “torah umadda” advocate.
Anything else is plain revisionism by some latter-day rejectionists of Hirschian philosophy who cannot admit that Hirsch was not on their side. Virtually all of Orthodox Germany followed in his path- whether Rav Hildesheimer, R’Dovid Hoffman, the Berlin Rabbinical Seminary, and more. An interesting note: the Berlin seminary’s last rosh yesiva was one of the greatest talmidim of Slobodka- Rav Weinberg. zz.l.
I found Joseph and other’s comments on the “modern orthodox” jews repulsive and offensive. In times like today, when the Jewish world cries for some kind of achdus, insulting thousands of jews is not doing “rotzon hashem”.
I am not going to engage in the question of Kollel and whether it contravenes halacha, or whether there is room today for innovations in halacha.I prefer to be “min hane-elovim velo min ho-olvim”. To me, every Jew, every single jew has a holy neshomo and should be embraced, not rejected.
ROB, your problem is that you analyze Hirsch from a secular point of view. I have never seen a post of yours that is so mistaken as that last one. Is the nirvana of the Hirschian philosophy to create a college with Bible criticism, a gay club, transgender professor? They have perverted his ideal, if they ever truly sought to follow it in the first place. They are close to the Haskala movement, not the Hirschian one.
I found Joseph and other’s comments on the “modern orthodox” jews repulsive and offensive.
ROB,
You found this offensive?: “The essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative.”
Like I said when I quoted it, it is not my vort. It was said by Maran Hagoen HaRav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, as stated in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav).
So the issue is between “ROB” and HaRav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L.
(And since you have previously made clear you do not find the Reform and Conservative movements very repulsive and offensive, why does it bother you that the Gedolim have lumped the MO together with the Reform and Conservative?)
Joseph and Squeak,
What you guys have all wrong is that you feel you can be mvazeh or make fun of any talmid chachom if there hashkafos are diffrent then those of the rabbonim you happen to follow.
You see, if i said i beleive that R’ Y.B. soloviechick (or any other rov for that matter) was a bigger talmid chochom and gadol then say R’ Aharon Kotler z’l you would probabably be offended and talk down to me for thinking that although you really have no more of reason to beleive that he wasnt then he was.
If i used just the first initials for lets say R’ Avigdor Miller z’l’s name (like how you do for one of the leaders of the mo rabbonim’s name) because some rov who i happen to hold is greater then him for whatever reason said this you would say i am being mvazeh a talmid chochom and have no chelek in olam haboh.
If you are going to constantly be mvazeh gedolim who’s hashkafos disagree with your way of doing things dont act all self rightous and offended when people do the same to the ones you happen to follow for whatever reason, because you are doing the same exact thing.
Re AryehinTN: I take quite seriously what SJS has to say in answer to your question. May I suggest that you ask that of your LOR, and if you don’t have an LOR, whoever your OR or mentor is.
squeak, there is an expression ” ha-ahavah mekalkeles es hashuro” It means that excessive love for someone blinds one to the faults of that person. In your case, you can say the opposite; “hasinnah mekalkeles es hasuro”. Your intense dislike (dare I say hatred?) for YU and the so-called Modern orthodox jews has corrupted your judgment.
I know little of the ay club and the transgender professor, and I daresay that it is not part of YU but of one of the satellite schools and has more to do with the law of the land than the “tolerance” of the YU direction. As far as the Bible criticism class,again, I know little of it and I don’t even know if such a class exists.However, many Gedolim in the nineteenth century, chief amongst them the Malbim, had to answer the Bible criticism of that era and I am pretty sure that they knew about the various questions coming from that oorner. By definiton, they knew about Bible criticism and therefore had to have studied it.
Of course, you did not deny anything I wrote about Hirschian philosphy so I daresay you agree with me on the basics. I am not sure it was nirvana but ,clearly, it was the source of yiddishkeit for tens of thousands of real ‘ehrliche’ yidden for a century and a half. (For the record, I am not of German ancestry and find the “dryness” of their tradition too constricting)
000,
For the umpteenth time, it is not my vort. The QUOTE “The essence of Modern Orthodoxy is the same as the Reform and Conservative” was said by HaRav Aharon Kotler ZTV’L, as stated in Mishnas Rabi Aharon (vol. 3, Hesped on the Brisker Rav).
joseph
but Rav Aharon’s not his rav. so you can’t bring him as a raaya…
Joseph,
What does that have to do with my post??
I’m merely stating I’m not giving any chiddushim of my own.
Every time I communicate with Squeak, I feel like I am transgressing lifnei iver. If I hadn’t commented on his disgusting bizoyon of a godol, he wouldn’t have repeated it.
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