- This topic has 394 replies, 43 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Rebetzin, I have tremendous respect for chareidi people. I also have tremendous respect for NON-chareidi people who are shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos, even when their derech is unlike yours. If I understand you correctly, I believe that you are mistaken in your assertion that “black hatters” respect the MO, but not vice versa. Clearly, the opposite is the usual case. I wish everyone I see a good Shabbos when I walk to and from Shul. The “frummer-looking” the person, the less likely she is to even look at me, much less to answer me, or be makdim b’sholom. And the kids are the same as the parents.
What I do NOT accept as being a good thing, is the notion that there is only one true path to Hashem, and that the path is only known to chareidi Jews in black hats. There are all types of frum Jews and as long as they are following the halacha (and not necessarily the chumros that are claiming to be the Halacha these days), then they are fulfilling ratzon Hashem. It is typical of the arrogance some black hatters exhibit, that they do not accept any shitta but their own. It is fine for them, but it is real gaivah to think that one is the only person in possession of the knowledge of what Hashem REALLY wants of us. I can gauarantee you for a fact that our Avos did not wear black Borsalino hats, and they were on a higher madreiga than any of us will ever be. They were also very accepting of people and through that acceptance were koneh nefashos for Hashem.
“That is also true. The reason is because that is the Mesorah which we have recieved from R’ Shach, The Chazon Ish, The Chofetz Chaim, Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchanan, R’ Akiva Eiger, The Noda B’yehuda, The Vilna Goan etc. etc.”
1) Why does the mesorah only start a few hundred years ago?
2) All/many/most of those you mention had a job. Is that now not part of the Yeshivish mesorah?
3) I would not include the Vilna Gaon. He was FOR secular learning.
4) One can very arguably make the statement that the Torah True Jews in the time of the Mikdash would be considered MO today. In addition, one can arguable state that the Rambam (and most likely most other Rishonim) would be considered MO.
5) The ones who changed mesorah can arguable be defined as Yeshivish and not the other way around.
The sad reality is that, although as a rule the Yeshivishe oilem respects every person (MO, DL, etc.), this does not apply in reverse. (On the internet itself it seems every day there is another MO blog that its main point is to attack Chareidim and Rabbonim, competing who can be more vicious.)
If you want to know how the Yidden looked in the time of the Beis Hamikdash, the best picture today are the Yemenite Jews – who were left untouched for millenia – with their long payos, etc.
The Yeshivishe world gives lip service to the idea that they respect those who are MO. To believe otherwise is very naive. I would so love for that to be true, but you cannot respect someone whom you believe to be inferior to you. You might SHOW respect (though I do not think they do), but deep down you believe you are better. I don’t believe as a MO machmir Jew that I am superior to a charedi. I admire the fact that they commit to certain practices that are NOT halachic but which they choose to strictly follow (even if it would just be in the realm of which hechsher to follow), but it does not invalidate my own practices. I have no problem with people only drinking Cholov Yisroel. Kol Hakavod to them. But they seem to have a problem with the fact that I drink Cholov Stam, whether or not they will admit it. We have seen the arguments on this forum many times, to bear out what I am stating. If Cholov Stam was permitted by our poseik hador several decades ago, there is no reason for even one person to try to find mekoros that say it is assur today. But they do. As far as I am concerned that is a good illustration of my point, right there.
sjs,
Welcome back.
“I took a poll amongst my friends about having a Rav”.
Well, who can argue with an official poll? 🙂
“About the vilifying the black hat/charedi communities – I think the vilification goes both ways”
I’ve never disputed that. I’m just trying to point out to the non-chareidi crowd that all this talk of chareidim “looking down” on THEM is hypocritical. Additionally it has been my observation (& now it appears many others’ as well) that the attacks from the MO toward chareidim are more venomous than the reverse.
“Just remember, you admitted that you don’t think MO is halachically sound. Why are you asking the MO community to respect your halachic path when you don’t respect theirs?”
Because we have two thousand years of Mesora behind us & MO only has fifty.
Additionally, as I pointed out earlier, although MO was created by an Adam Gadol, it was rejected by ALL other Gedolim of that Generation.
“As for maikel/machmir – I think its a circular debate because the terms are sort of dependant on each other. 10 is greater than 9, but 11 is greater than 10. Its a reference point, rather than an absolute.”
I agree 100%. That’s why it bugs me when MO complain that chareidim are “machmirim”.
“One more thing about TV: if you can accept that it wasnt damaging (and was beneficial) to me, why cant you accept that for some people it can be beneficial? I think that people who cannot handle TV should absolutely NOT use it but that its a personal decision. Thats it :-)”
Marajauna is beneficial for some people too, that doesn’t mean that it should be endorsed, or even be left to a “personal decision”. If it’s BAD for 99% of the population it should be banned.
“We have had plenty of spirited debates”
🙂
yossiea,
Once again I only respond not to be accused of “shtika k’hodah”.
“That is also true. The reason is because that is the Mesorah which we have recieved from R’ Shach, The Chazon Ish, The Chofetz Chaim, Rabbeinu Yitzchok Elchanan, R’ Akiva Eiger, The Noda B’yehuda, The Vilna Goan etc. etc.”
“1) Why does the mesorah only start a few hundred years ago?”
Apparently you missed the etc. etc.
“2) All/many/most of those you mention had a job. Is that now not part of the Yeshivish mesorah?”
They new Shas before they got a job. That remains the “Yeshivish Mesora”.
BTW the only “job” any of the above had was Rav or Rosh Yeshiva, save the Chofetz Chaim who worked for a few hours in his grocery store till he had enough money to live on for that day – then he would close the store. Is that part of the MO mesora? The Chazon Ish & Vilna Goan NEVER HAD ANY JOB AT ALL. (Except for one year during WW1 when the Rav of the city where the Chazon Ish was fled & the Chazon Ish took over till he returned).
Next time before you send in a post please aquaint yourself with the facts first. Consider that an answer to your last two points as well.
yossiea,
My deepest apologies, I believe I skipped your third point.
“3) I would not include the Vilna Gaon. He was FOR secular learning.”
Correct. In the “Bais Hakeesai”.
BTW,
If I don’t respond to to your posts in the future please understand that it is NOT “shtika k’hodah”.
Notpashut,
I am respondinding to your post for the same reason you responded to mine.
Maybe we do live on diffrent planets: i live in Lakewood, went to mesivta here and went on to learn in B.M.G. for a bit.
I daven in a Shul who’s rov is a grandson in law of R’ A. Miller,
I hear and know what black hatters in this area generaly say and think about people of other hashkafic affiliations and i hear them qoute other great leaders (whose names i wont mention here out of respect) of the chareidei black hat’s establishment opinions of other affiliations and they ARNT for the most part respectfully disagreeing.
They are generaly saying that those other affiliations are bchlal not in the realm of authentic Judaisim to put it (very very) mildly.
It is O.K. to not put certain qoutes or opinions ect. of rabbonim (and if you are really a yeshiva guy you know what i mean) on the internet or any other public forum if they will offend certain people but to denie that they exsist bchlal in order to try and win an argument is just not honest.
a totally side point that is based on oomis’ comment.
Why is it that I always thought that R’ Moshe F’s heter for chalav stam is when chalav yisroel cannot be obtained? Was I wrong or did people take his heter and generalize it to all cases?
notpashut, the reason so many MO fellows villify and attack Chareidim/Chasidim/etc. is the same reason so many of the non-orthodox villify and attack the Orthodox.
“Because we have two thousand years of Mesora behind us & MO only has fifty”
The mesorah of over 2,000 years ago also recognized the permissibilty of men having concubines, more than one wife, taking non-Jewish women as P.O.W. for possibly not-so-kosher purposes, the mitzvah of yibum (which is now almost exclusively modified to chalitzah alone, today), involuntary servitude, etc., etc., etc. Not everything that is Mesorah is practiced today, for a variety of sound reasons. In a time and place when the strong possibility existed of milk coming from a non-kosher animal, such as a mare or pig, and being sold as regular milk, it was absolutely essential to ensure that only the milk overssen by a Jew would be served as milk. We live in a country where all milk is government inspected and graded, and in order to receive the gov’t OK, it MUST and can ONLY be cow milk. Hence R’ Moshe gave the heter. BTW, even if the heter was “in case you cannot get Cholov Yisroel,” nevertheless if it is kosher, it is kosher. It cannot be a little bit kosher, because if it only is a little kosher, it means it is NOT kosher. A rov cannot give a heter on on issur, except to save a life. I think we can agree it is not life-threatening to refrain from drinking milk. A little inconvenient, possibly, but plenty of people are allergic to milk and all dairy, and do just fine.
oomis1105 – you think rabbenu gershom was MO?
INTELLEGENT,
But arnt you of the opinion that whatever is paskend in one tkufa is always nogeia and to say that certain aspects of halacha change with time is bordering on heresy?.
Rebitzin,
What most of those blogs are saying is that despite the fact that chreidim tend to say that there mehalach is the only one that is authentic judaisim there are actualy other affiliations that are just as authentic.
“oomis1105 – you think rabbenu gershom was MO?’
R’ Gershom ZT”L was a man who (according to what I was taught re: his takanah)unfortunately married two women and they made his life miserable. He wanted to ensure that other men did not fall into his tzoros, and he had the halachic koach at that time to make a takanah for a specific time (as I understand it), regarding the marrying of more than one wife. He also made the takanah that is is assur to open up and read other people’s mail. I would say that he had a certain visonary quality to him, which one could think of as MO, if one chooses.
oomis1105, You have no idea who Rabbeinu Gershom is.
I see much more boldness and innovation from the right wing Charedi leaders than from the Modern Orthodox leaders. Major Hashkafek (philosophical) issues that were unresolved in the time of the Rishonim (500-1000 years ago) are suddenly resolved and crystallized. The obligation of a father to teach his son a trade has been suspended in some right wing Charedi circles. Bold speculation in the area of theodicy (how G-d judges man) is more likely to come from the right wing.
On the other hand a Modern Orthodox Rabbi is more likely to wear what many have concluded is Techelet in their Tsisit.
oomis1105,
“BTW, even if the heter was “in case you cannot get Cholov Yisroel,” nevertheless if it is kosher, it is kosher.”
I do not agree!
If R’ Moshe said that the heter is if you cannot obtain cholov yisroel, then it is if you cannot obtain cholov yisroel! I don’t see why you’d be allowed to expand it to other areas!
I know I’m going backwards but your first comments cannot be compared in my opinion. Many wives are not allowed because of R’ Gershom’s cherem who lived hundreds of years ago and was a rishon! taking non-Jewish women as P.O.W…. (for not such “kosher reasons…) is in the torah and I imagine it does not apply today because we don’t have a valid army and I’m sure there are many other reasons not because someone craves hershey’s chocolate!
While there were changes in the mesora over the years I don’t think there were any valid ones that promoted “modernising Judaism” (yes, i know it’s spelled wrong). The term “Modern” is essentially up to date which connotes doing these to fit into goyishe society which we are specifically prohibited against! It is definitely a halacha because it is in the Torah so you cannot say you are practicing Halacha 100% if you are leading your life as modern, B’SHITA! That’s my opinion at least. I’m sure someone will have some explanation as to why it is perfectly fine. But then again, it’s very easy to find explanations for anything. The question is if you’re looking for them.
R’ Moshe and Cholov Yisrael was not a b’dieved. It was a l’chatchila. Get over it.
BTW – until the haskala kicked in there was nothing else but ultra orthodox. that’s when they first had a need to become more open minded. rav shimshon raphael hirsch was NOT even CLOSE to modern orthodox. he simply understood the needs of the generation. but what was before that? and what did he create? i highly doubt either of those things is what MO is now.
Intellegent: Rav Moshe (who was the posek hador) didn’t really have a shita on cholov yisroel. I know his great grandson personelly and he DOES EAT CHOLOV STAM. By the way, I don’t.
Intellegent,
You said “While there were changes in the mesora over the years I don’t think there were any valid ones that promoted “modernising Judaism””
Really? on what knowledge do you base this opinion because there are plenty of rabbis who know alot of torah that would disagree with you.
How do you decide wich rabbi’s opinions are valid and wich ones arnt?
The reason modern orthodoxy is withering on the vine (while Chareidim are growing by leaps and bounds — both internally and through the Baal Teshuva movement), is because by and large the MO children either become more Chareidi, or they move further left and R’L fall off the Jewish map.
000646: The way that you decide which rabbi’s opinions are valid is by listening to your local rabbi.
000646
“INTELLEGENT,
But arnt you of the opinion that whatever is paskend in one tkufa is always nogeia and to say that certain aspects of halacha change with time is bordering on heresy?.”
What did I say that contradicts that?
btw, When did i state that opinion?
“While there were changes in the mesora over the years I don’t think there were any valid ones that promoted “modernising Judaism”” I don’t think
Anyway, mo does not make sense to me. it’s basically taking judaism and tweaking it to better fit into goyishe society. Basically taking the three (or at least one or two of them) things that the generation that left mitzrayim were praised for keeping and leaving them out of judaism. (yes, i know, it’s within halacha. Please!)
As Joseph says, modern orthodoxy is gonna dissapear eventually
That’s because people eventually realize that they’re not being fed the real thing. Just like reform and conservative are pretty much non-existant anymore.
yros –
i agree with you but don’t bring rav moshe’s grandkids as proof – someone’s gonna bring in one that’s not so frum as a raaya and try to prove a point…
also, you should know that not everyone’s local rabbi is so frum. dunno what to tell them because they still need guidance.
Inttelegent,
I apologize if you never said that,
I thought I remeberd you saying that in another thread.
brooklyn19:THe grandkid that I’m talking about is very frum. I’m talking about normal local rabbis.
I know that. but you have to realize that not everyone on here does.
:} just a little tip on commenting in the CR. always assume you’re gonna be challenged (at best) or attacked (at worst)
brooklyn19: I’ve got no idea what your’e talkin about.
start reading old threads. or even current ones. you’ll get it in about 30 seconds (if you can read that quickly)
If the choice is someone will either be modern orthodox or be completely frei, obviously better for him to be MO than for him to be completely frei.
obviously
I agree 100%. That’s why it bugs me when MO complain that chareidim are “machmirim”.
I think what many MO people are talking about is that there are plenty of times that Charedim take halacha and add a chumra, that the community takes on as a halacha. Then, the yeshivish people forgo any other possible halachic ruling and say what they are doing is the minimum.
Joseph: notpashut, the reason so many MO fellows villify and attack Chareidim/Chasidim/etc. is the same reason so many of the non-orthodox villify and attack the Orthodox.
The reason modern orthodoxy is withering on the vine (while Chareidim are growing by leaps and bounds — both internally and through the Baal Teshuva movement), is because by and large the MO children either become more Chareidi, or they move further left and R’L fall off the Jewish map.
Intellegent, my (yeshivish) friend who eats cholov yisroel was told by her Rabbi that if there was a big financial or taste difference she could use cholov stam. Since money is not really an object for her, she eats cholov stam ice-cream because the taste is significantly better than cholov yisroel. Chocolate is also significantly better. Cholov yisroel milk and dairy products are significantly more expensive. Why would I pay $2 for a container of sour cream when I can pay 9 cents?
You tend to have opinions but have little fact to back it up.
Joseph, how does that come into the conversation?
yros,
You’ll find out soon enough!
brooklyn19, you are incorrect that all Jews were ultra before the haskalah. One of the unfortunate results of the Holocaust is that the major surviving “minhag” of Europe is based on Hungarian practices. Most Jews before the war were in no way shape or form Ultra.
I think that what many of us tend to forget is that the Rabbonim of yesteryear were the MODERN rabbonim of THEIR time. Certain halachos are subject to an interpretation in light of the information of the particular time. For example, we now know certain things about the function of fire, electricity and laws of physics, that have affected how our rabbonim look at the SHABBhot water heater. We have a k’deira al k’deira that many poskim hold can be used to heat food up on Shabbos. As our poskim become better educated in secular areas, they are able to apply that knowledge to fit in with our Torah standards (not the other way around). 200 years ago, our gedolim did NOT know some of these things, and they paskened according to what they knew in those day, their own modern Orthodox times, for want of a better expression. Nowadays, we have halachos about organ transplants from both corpses and live donors, what denotes cessation of life, brain death, is artificial insemination an halachically-viable method of impregnating a woman who cannot otherwise conceive, and if it is from a donor is it considered to be mamzerus…etc. etc. etc. And while many of these things were known in the times of the Talmud and are discussed in the Gemarah, many fine details were not known until recent years.
If chalilah moshiach has not come in 200 years, I am sure there will be rabbonim who will know things that science has not yet discovered, and which were not yet discussed by our Rishonim. And our own present day sages will probably be regarded pretty much as we regard those who preceded them two centuries ago.
soon. when?
By the way I would like to say one chumrah. it has nothing to do with kids going off the derech, but I want to know the cr’s opinion. I was by a shabbos sheva brochos only family. There was seperate seating. why? what is the point? It is a shabbos seuda?
yros – There is more than one mishpacha at the Sheva Brochos.
Intellegent, I would like to apologize for the last line in my previous post. It was harsh and uncalled for. Do you forgive me?
I mean just first cousins, aunts and uncles. It is such an uncalled for chumra?
yros, my husband’s family used to do seperate seating. I didnt like it because my husband really wanted to talk to his grandmother who was on the other side. The last two years they did away with it and I think its much nicer. After all, the men in the family talk to women anyway, so why avoid sitting at a (spacious) table with them?
sjsinnyc: A jew always forgives another
yossiea
the reform movement was before the war. tell me you knew that.
and for everybody’s information: rav SR Hirsch was not modern orthodox. he may have been controversial in his time, as was Sarah Schenirer but they never compromised on halacha. The Ba’al Shemtov too. there’s nothing wrong with rabbonim allowing and promoting adapting to the generation. we’re not amish, we’re Jewish. No where does it say technology is not allowed. as long as it’s all promoted by the gedolim of the dor.
SJSinNYC,
I never even noticed your post!
Was it just posted?
I forgive you and will not be reading your post. I did of course go back and notice the last line but only noticed that you wrote, “you tend to have opinions…” not sure what you ended off. If I go back and find it offensive, maybe I will unforgive you. But don’t worry I’m just kidding. I forgive you.
I don’t think a/o should take anything in the coffee room personally. No one really knows eachother at all so their comments can really not be taken personally!
brooklyn19, yes, I am aware that the reform movement was before WWII. That doesn’t change one thing I wrote.
Brooklyn, Rav Soloveitchik never promoted breaking halacha either. Neither do the MO rabbonim (I would exclude R’ Avi Weiss because he is not really MO).
Intellegent, it was only the last line of my post that was offensive. The rest was not. It was just posted – feel free to read it (and then skip the last line 🙂
“soon. when?”
in about 2 years maybe.
SJS – though MO may claim that they are the followers of Hirsch, they are not. Their claim has no more credence than the Neturai Karta claiming to be the followers of the Stamar Rebbe. Would the Satmar Rebbe embrace the rosho of Iran? CH”V No. Would Rabbiner Hirsch have endorsed MO (I won’t outline the details of the follies of MO, for I don’t want to insult anyone here openly)? CH”V No. And whom do you mean by MO? He is certainly not the father of the Young Israel movement (and their ilk, in the US), and no one claims that he is. So you must be talking about YU.
Torah U’Madda <> Torah Im Derech Eretz. Were you educated in YU? I doubt that your husband heard this in Darchei. That institution seeks validation by sticking out their feet and claiming to be disciples of someone whose greatness they do not understand. At best, they are disciples of JB, though I doubt that they can even claim that at this point in their downward spiral. They are certainly not following the Hirschian ideals.
And while “contemporary” rabbonim are ALL by definition, “modern”, when we say “Modern Orthodox” we do not mean “Contemporary Orthodox”. Rather, we are referring to a branch of “Orthodoxy” that compromises on Halacha. CH”V to say that Hirsch founded such an idea.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.