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notpashut,
Just curios why would tinok shnishba have an effect on yayin nessech?
brooklyn19:
btw, why do you feel OK quoting RADAK but not OK with looking up a Rashi?
If its just because one is in a Gemorah the D”H is not a Halachic issue, but Hashkafic, so you can take a look inside lshetscha (if you feel OK doing so), just like you can learn mussar.
000646,
You are right. I take it back. I’m not sure, I was just trying to think of an example & that’s what came off the tip of my fingers.
For a zillion REAL practical examples ask a qualified Rav.
gavra – thanks for the tip. and yeah, i wouldn’t even know where to begin looking up a gemara.
just a few more words on this subject of “tinok shenishba”. If my memory serves me correctly, the main aspect whether one is or not such a one would be irrelevant today as it has to do with the chiyuv of a korban after an aveirah “beshoggeg”. I will have to refresh my memory and look again in Shabbos perek klal godol.
So, there is “practical” issue today and it is just an expression to indentify people who are not responsible for their desecration of the halacha. There is, of course, a major difference in such a case, whether one has knowledge of the actual halacha or not. “Tinok shenishba” is deemed to have no knowledge and hence, no responsibility.
I couched it in the language of ‘chumro and kuloh” ,although it might not exactly fit the meaning, to show that there are people today (and ,to my mind, unfortunately, rabbonim) who instinctively dismiss a so-called lenient or all-inclusiver approach. That was my purpose in describing the difference between accepting every child with no jewish education and to contrast this to the harsher approach that dismisses out of hand anyone who does not fit in their meaning of “jewish identity”.
For the record, there is absolutely as much validity to a lenient view as to a harsher view.As a matter of fact “koach dehetaira odif”. finding leniencies is the ‘stronger’ (better) approach. oomis1005 is right.
rob,
I think that I can change just one or two words in your comment & be equally accurate.
“There are people today (and,to my mind, unfortunately, rabbonim) who instinctively dismiss a so-called stricter or less-inclusive approach”.
“There is absolutely as much validity to a harsher view as to a lenient view”.
BTW, Nowhere does it say that finding leniencies is “stronger” or “better”. Take a look in Rashi & Tosafos “on the spot”.
brooklyn, you said “so don’t go on saying that the blacker the hat, the more things are assur. no, it’s probably based on the fact that they know what they’re talking about a DROP!” I took that to mean that the more right wing knew more than the MO rabbis. I apologize for snapping at you if thats not what you meant. Just to clarify though, do you think more right wing rabbis have more “insightful. And si’ata dishmaya”?
notpashut – I think we are arguing over semantics now. I still “accept” what she is doing, but I don’t think its correct. I guess the better way to say it is that “I accept her in my life, but dont condone what she is doing.” Is that better? I really dont think I’m a politician! I had a semantics issue with Intellegent, but now that I “know” her better, I can usually spot it before it becomes long winded.
Now, if we look at ROB adn notpashut’s comment about the validity of the lenient/strict approach is really everything I have been saying on this site – don’t dismiss other people’s psak halacha because they are ALL* (within the bounds of halacha) valid.
*feel free to “miss the point” and jump on me with reform and conservative “halachic” points of view, but I am sure by now you understand. Just because someone follows the lenient view on halacha, does not make their psak any less valid. The same is true the other way around. Please try to find a way to RESPECT SOMEONE ELSE’S PSAK HALACHA EVEN IF YOU DON’T FOLLOW IT.
it goes back to what i said about the difference between a “genius” and a “godol.” i think i sid it on a different thread. (i can’t remember anymore.)
and anyway, when i said that they probably know what they’re talking about i was not comparing them to anyone. just stating a fact. sorry for the miscommunication!
646, when you lose an argument (as you normally do), saying someone is “nitpicking” your words may make you feel better, but won’t change the metzius of anything. And I agree with gavra’s request that you not engage in personal attacks, such as how you ended your post with “you look stupid and immature.”
And if Shulchen Aruch paskened a halacha that the velt accepted, there is no justification for going searching for a “meikel” shitta.
000646
isn’t it because he’s mechalel shabbos be’farhesya? i dunno – maybe it’s not so simple. but i know we put out mevushal wine if someone irrelig is at our house.
Doc,
please mention the name of a thread were i lost an argument against either joseph or the big one.
brooklyn19,
yeah but why would tinok shnishba make it any diffrent just wondering….
Doc,
I also posted about two posts before the post that “the big one” qouted that i DID think that it could be that tinok shnisba dosnt apply anymore but i had a question on it (not applying anymore)
R.O.B. posted somthing that made alot of sense saying we should take the more leinient approach so i asked him if he had a mekor.
If anyone else had posted somthing premoting a more machmir approach i would have asked them for a mekor.
its as simple as that.
646, Every one I’ve read.
646, rob presented BOTH sides of the argument and you said you just want a mekor for the lenient side. But a few people already pointed out this fact to you, and you personally attacked them (“you look stupid and immature”) and denied what you said previously, writing it off as “nitpicking on my words.”
Well they were your words alright!
I don’t actually expect you to face reality, so I don’t see any point in furthering this discussion with you.
Doc,
R.O.B clearly holds of the more leinient side as he made clear in his post wich stated as follows
“Why take a very strict interpretation of “tinok shenishba”- that is, that the child should NEVER have had any contact with Jews, rather than the more lenient one that says that the lack of Jewish education and surroundings qualify someone as ‘tinok shenishba”, regardless whether he/she had some contact with Jews?
If you go only by the first one, you make thousands of jews sinners,not exactly what we should do at any juncture.if you take the latter view, then , you are giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, which is, incidentally, the Middah of Hakodseh Boruch huh and
Why the chumro indeed”…..
so i asked him if he has a mekor for this line of reasoning (wich i termed as a more leinient view).
Again if anyone would have posted ANYTHING (a sevara or mekor) supporting a more machmir approach i would have asked them for for a mekor as well.
What is so hard for you to understand?
Doc,
Did R.O.B.’s post not seem to be supporting the more leineint view of tinok shinshba to you?
I don’t understand what is so hard to comprehend about the concept of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” If someone has a friend who is mechallel Shabbos, she can be a positive influence on that friend by accepting her, warts and all, and not cutting the lines of communication. That does not mean she agrees with her friend’s choices, but she loves her in spite of them. We never know how one act of kindness or acceptance can bring someone back to Yiddishkeit, but even if chalilah that would NOT happen, the kiddush Hashem made by not pushing away another yid who is a good person, though not observant, can be tremendous.
I find this one of the toughest aspects of interacting with fellow Jews, i.e. those with various levels of observance or minhagim. We are taught to distance ourselves from an “evil” neighbor or friend, this is part of the daily davening. But we are also taught to love all Jews, no matter their midos, etc. In fact the Alter Rebbe said that we have two mitzvot concerning Jews who transgress, 1) love them as Jews and 2) hate them for the evil they do. This confused me for a long time.
But, what I have come to believe is that it is better to extend loving kindness to those who are separating themselves from Torah and attempt to respectfully and subtly give them another way of seeing these mitzvot and the benefit of observance when openings allow. And I find it amazing how often something in the parsha shavua will naturally make this possible.
But nothing is possible if there is a solid wall of separation.
The trick is in balancing the separation/involvement so that there is enough involvement to hopefully have a positive impact but enough of a distance to avoid being distracted from your own path of observance.
brooklyn, thats ok! I am sorry for jumping on you. It was a stressful day yesterday and I probably read it a little harsher than I normally would.
Oomis – I love the expression “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Its what I was trying convey (somewhat unsuccessfully until I went into long winded explanations). I think I will stick to that phrase from now on.
That phrase (love the sinner…) has nothing to do with Judaism. The following do:
Tanach, Sefer Y’sha’ya:
1:28
But the destruction of the transgressors and the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel, and full of wrath and fierce anger; to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy the sinners out of it.
33:14
The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling hath seized the ungodly: ”Who among us shall dwel with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”
65:20
There sall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man, that hath not filled his days; for the youngest shall die a hundred years old, and the siner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
Joseph, notice those phrases do not have anything to do with wo/man hating wo/man.
Joseph:
Rav Meir & Bruriah?
I did not realize that my comments would engender heated debates…Hopefully, it is for the better understanding of our problems and how to handle them.
notpashut-(and, by extension, to doc and others)- I would submit that you are wrong in your assertion that you can change a few words and be ‘equally” right,
The halocho is paskened overwhelmingly like Bais Hillel against Basi Shammai (with some isolated exceptions) and the main reason is exactly because ‘koach dehetairah odif”. The “strength” (validity) of finding a “hetter” is “odif” ,BETTER. This is unequivocal and has ramifications throughout the whole gemoro.
So- you are wrong in implying that a Possek or Rov who looks to be machmir is “equally’right. He is NOT equally right. He CAN follow the more “chumrudik’ way for himself and his followers as “middas chasidus” but for the people at large- he should NOT follow that path. This is apparent in all the different parts of Halocho.
This is why I said that “sadly” today, the people and Rabbonim instinctively dismiss the more lenient view. My view is that this goes againt the grain of the purpose of halocho and this view does NOT have the same validity for the klal.
As far as your quote from rashi-Rashie explains WHY “koach dehetaira odif” BECAUSE it is EASY to be machmir- all you have to say is NO. It is much more difficult to be meikal. This is whay Rashi says.
From the gemoro – it is clear that this is the BETTER way (ODIF) and this is evident from all halocho conclusions.
oo646- I intimated that the mekor for ‘tinok shenishba’ comes from the gemoro shabbos that deals with chiyuvim of “chatos”, a sacrifice for an unintended sin.There are differences in what it means ‘unintended’ (or “igorant’) sins.
I will IYH find the quotation and we will then see what the commentators say about what constitutes ‘tinok shenishba”. Stay tuned.
Elucidate please.
I hate to rain on “joseph”‘s parade but to find a few quotations that condemn sinners and totally ignore a slew of other mekoros smacks of pure shophistry. You take a position and then ignore anything that may contradict your view. Thi is intellectually dishonest and actually is not in tune with halocho that looks at all sources before making any assumptions.
(wikipedia, couldn’t type this fast enough myself)
In the Midrash on Psalms 118 it states that Bruriah taught her husband, Rabbi Meir, to pray for the repentance of the wicked, rather than for their destruction. According to the story, she once found Rabbi Meir praying that an annoying neighbor would die. Appalled by this, she responded to him by explaining the verse “Let the sinners be consumed from the earth, and the wicked shall be no more” (Psalms 104:35), that the verse actually states: “Let sin be consumed from the earth,” adding that “the wicked shall be no more” because they have repented.
I have a friend who received shmita from a Modern Orthodox yeshiva that elevates Ahavat Yisroel as its primary value and we used to clash over this idea. I no longer engage him over this issue since he is set in his haskafa and it is not productive any longer to debate it, but the point I tried to convince him of was that we are taught that ignoring a fellow Jew’s transgression is equated to the prohibition of standing idly by your brother’s blood, and taking on the sin to ourselves.
If the acceptance of another Jew’s incorrect behavior is so complete that a message is telegraphed to them that there is nothing wrong with what they are doing, I do not see this as an exercise of Ahavat Yisroel, but neglect for which we will be called to account.
Showing love for a fellow Jew (at least in my opinion) is trying to bring them closer to Torah – not making them feel comfortable with their growing distancing from it.
ROB:
Please feel free to quote TANACH to counter what I QUOTED verbatim, and support your position. Your last comment is mere insinuation.
“This is why I said that “sadly” today, the people and Rabbonim instinctively dismiss the more lenient view. My view is that this goes againt the grain of the purpose of halocho and this view does NOT have the same validity for the klal.”
It is my view that to be mehudar with a mitzva is “good” for anyone, and “better” than doing the minimum to meet the treshold of observance. And it is interesting that the Chanukah mitzvah is one in which all Jews perform at the highest level, since lighting one is enough to fulfill the mitzva.
I would hope we all strive to fulfill all mitzvos with the same zeal as lighting the menorah.
R.O.B
Thanks for clarifying.
“shmita” should have been smicha
{:
Thank You Dovid Yehuda.
You said it most elequently, better than I could! (Both comments.)
“Showing love for a fellow Jew (at least in my opinion) is trying to bring them closer to Torah – not making them feel comfortable with their growing distancing from it.”
a golden nutshell
well, I have a few minutes today so I will continue on the thread of ‘chumros” and ‘kullos” and respond to dovidjehuda and others.
Joseph, give me a bit of time and I will quote you plenty of passages that deal with loving every jew. BTW- gavra at work -what you quote is a gemoro in berochos ,first perek.
dovid jehuda quotes chanukkah- and he proves my point. chanukkah is the ONLY mitzvah that all people do now as the “mehadrin min hamehadrin”. There are philosophical reasons for that on which i will elaborate some other time.
In al lother mitzvos, there is a basic mitzvah and the “hiddur’ is just that- a hiddur. EVEN on the hiddur ,the halocho has limitations such as not more than a fifth extra…etc.
The plain fact is that throughout history and all the halachic permutations, it was always incumbent to find ways to be LENIENT for the KLAL.
The machlokes of the eiruv in Boro Park is the example how far we have strayed from this in recent years. Many,many kehillos have always used Kullos for an eiruv and it was accepted for the klal.In Boro Park, the severity of the machlokes is the sad result of a new apporach today.I can add the question of agunos, geirim and others.
Bais hillel should be our example and, sadly, it is not what many of today’s Rabbonim do.
`
Joseph,
The pesukimi you quoted say nothing about how we are to interact with sinners, only about their untimate punishment. So I’m not sure how they are relevant to this discussion.
Re Joseph: gavra at work beat me to it. There’s also, v’chol harisha c’reka toveid (risha, not reshaim).
And re ROB: again, is this particular issue a kula vs. chumra thing? And if it is, how do we know that the meikilim are not actually being machmir in their ahavas Yisrael?
Mrs Tzippi:
Thank you.
btw ROB, hiddur is 1/3 (or 1/2). Bava Kamma 9a-b.
tzippi-seesm I am spending more time on this computer today but, hopefully, it will be for a good cause.
I said earlier that this is not strictly a chumro and kulloh thing (tinok shenishba) but it does pertain to the attitude today that is prevalent in some Yiddishe quarters.
As far as your other question, allow me a story from the brisker rov ,surely not a left-winger.
Once, he paskehed that someone should eat o nyom kippur and the talmidim asked him how come he was mwikil on hilchos jom kippur. he told them he wasn’t meikil on hilchos yom kippur but MACHMIR on hilchos pikuach nefesh.
I fully agree with you that it is incumbent upon us to be MACHMIR in hilchos ahavas yisroel. The problem you might have is that this approach is prevalent in two machanos that do not necessarily walk in lockstep with the “chareidi” world. These machanos are Chabad, which are the main exponents of this approach, and the talmidim of Rav Kook, who said that the antidote to “sinas chinom”, which destroyed the second Bays, is “ahavas chinom”. This is why he accepted the secular Zionists because he felt that the achdus of Klal yisroel was more important than the esoteric philosophical differences between the different factions.
I fully suscribe to the view of both machanos.
Rob,
It’s nice that you fully subscribe to those views.
Would you like a list of 100 Gedolai Olam who did not & don’t?
Why can you bash the chareidim yomam valailo on the basis of ahavas yisroel while those who defend the gedolim are terrible people.
Why do you pretend to be more accepting of the chareidi community than the chareidi community is of you?
Need I remind you of a post in the “why yidden are better” thread which you never responded to?
notpashut:
Since you offered, I would like to see the list of 100 “Gedolai Olam” who are Machmir on being Mevaze members of Klal Yisroel who as R’ Weinberg said are “Tinok Shenishba”.
I just believe most of the “Charaidi Olam” (the Gedolim, not the Kanoiim) are Maikil in this as well, so I will not “Bash” anyone (sad such a good word should be used in a bad way!:-)
Please attach mekoros. I have seen Rishonim misquote each other, so don’t take it personally.
oy—notpashut-
Why,oh,why, do my very temperate words provoke such strong answer from you??? When did I ever ,EVER, bash chareidim?? If an honest difference of opinion is considered “bashing”, then we are REALLY in trouble as a people.
Bais Hillel and Bais Shammai had tremendous machlokes ,yet one didn’t call the other one “basher”. The Rambam had many detractors but none of them insulted him or called him ‘basher”.
Only in recent times has this phenonenom taken hold-that any deviance from a certain line of belief is considered so beyond the pale that it means “bashing” the chareidim. I am truly sad to say it but this is in line with the new belief in “daas torah” which cannot tolerate anyone having a different opinion.
And your retort about gedolei olam not suscribing to both of these shittas (chabad and rav kook), you are fully entitled to follow those gedolim. I am also fully entitled to follow my gedolim and these do include the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l and Rav Kook zz’l.
If the facts are so that ahavas ysroel is not present- then this is not bashing, just a matter of actual fact. There are plenty of chareidim who are fully engaged in ahavas ysroel, whether it is Rav Grossman or whether it is chabad, or the outreach organizations.
But when you start rejecting prefectly good geirim because you have a political agenda or you call people who rely upon a certain eiruv ‘mechallelei shabbos” because they carry on shabbos, or you refuse to search for a hetter for agunos when the need is so dire,well, this is a lack of ahavas yisroel..
I am not bashing anyone nor can you show that I ‘bash’ anyone. I accept the chareidi olam (I am one of them)and I am pretty well accepted by them. My dispute is with the view that the world can only live on chumros, patently a false assumption.
rob,
You’ve bashed (what you call) ‘litvaks.’ Why, just the other day you called the CHOFETZ CHAIM a ‘killjoy litvak’.
NOTPASHUT,
Why is it that the black hat world as a general rule cannot accept that there are rabbis who know just as much torah as there rabbis and have a diffrent hashkofo?
Why do black hatters generaly insist that the only rabbonim that are worth listening to and are gedolim too (as opposed to “just geniuses” whatever that is supposed to mean) are rabbonim that subscribe to there hashkofo?
Why do black hatters generaly feel free to question the judgement of and demean huge talmedei chachomim who’s hashkofo they disagree with but call anyone who questions the judgement of one of there rabbonim a rasha and an apikoros?
Just wanted to give a quick note of thanks for the comments by dovid_yehuda, Joseph, feivel, and notpashut.
well, joseph, I plead guilty. Litvaks are killjoys.
I, by far, prefer to be a happy chossid.
BTW-this doesn’t make litvaks bad jews, chas vecholilo, just a little too introspective and morose for my taste.
For all you other Litvaks out there, remember: Simcha gedola lehyos b’mitzvah!
Gavra,
notpashut:
“Since you offered, I would like to see the list of “100 Gedolai Olam” who are Machmir on being Mevaze members of Klal Yisroel who as R’ Weinberg said are “Tinok Shenishba”.
Apparently you have not been following the conversation.
I had said that I could provide a list of 100 Gedolai Olam that don’t subscribe to the views of Chabad & R’ Kook Ztz”l. Therefore even though RoB DOES subscribe to those views (which he has full right to do) he should leave everybody else alone, being that they have even more backing than himself.
What does that have to do with being mevaze a tinok shenishba?
Of course that is assur!
Rob,
If I may quote some of your words:
“This is why I said that “sadly” today, the people and Rabbonim instinctively dismiss the more lenient view. My view is that this goes againt the grain of the purpose of halocho and this view does NOT have the same validity for the klal.”
“The machlokes of the eiruv in Boro Park is the example how far we have strayed from this in recent years. Many,many kehillos have always used Kullos for an eiruv and it was accepted for the klal.In Boro Park, the severity of the machlokes is the sad result of a new apporach today.I can add the question of agunos, geirim and others. Bais hillel should be our example and, sadly, it is not what many of today’s Rabbonim do.”
“I fully agree with you that it is incumbent upon us to be MACHMIR in hilchos ahavas yisroel. The problem you might have is that this approach is prevalent in two machanos that do not necessarily walk in lockstep with the “chareidi” world. These machanos are Chabad, which are the main exponents of this approach, and the talmidim of Rav Kook, who said that the antidote to “sinas chinom”, which destroyed the second Bays, is “ahavas chinom”. This is why he accepted the secular Zionists because he felt that the achdus of Klal yisroel was more important than the esoteric philosophical differences between the different factions.
I fully suscribe to the view of both machanos.”
“But when you start rejecting prefectly good geirim because you have a political agenda or you call people who rely upon a certain eiruv ‘mechallelei shabbos” because they carry on shabbos, or you refuse to search for a hetter for agunos when the need is so dire,well, this is a lack of ahavas yisroel..
I am not bashing anyone nor can you show that I ‘bash’ anyone. I accept the chareidi olam (I am one of them)and I am pretty well accepted by them. My dispute is with the view that the world can only live on chumros, patently a false assumption.”
What crops up in your words over & over again is the sentiment that the Rabbonim are idiots but YOU really understand how g-d wants a jew to behave.
The Rabbonim are idiots but YOU really understand how g-d wants a Rav to pasken.
The Rabbonim are idiots but YOU really understand which issues are being neglected.
The Rabbonim are sonei yiroel but YOU are an oheiv yisroel.
So you know what? You are right. I should not have said that you “bash” chareidim.
I should have that you are mevaze Gedolim.
For myself, I’ll stick with the Gedolim.
Now a clarification for other posters:
I am not saying & never said that everyone has to listen to chareidi Gedolim. I happen to believe that anyone who doesn’t is mistaken, but that is just my opinion – everyone else can do whatever they want.
Now, the FACT is that when Chareidim critisise (rightly or WRONGLY) other types of jews, they ALWAYS do so on the basis of what the Gedolim said, what the Gedolim hold or what the halacha is.
They understand that a Gadol is someone who is on a totally different spiritual level then themselves & look up to the Gedolim for that.
What truly disgusts me is when people post all kinds of garbage against Gedolim because “I THINK THE GEDOLIM ARE WRONG”.
With all due respect – Who the heck are you? You’re some guy sitting in the YWN coffee room shooting off your mouth against R’ Avigdor Miller? Shooting off your mouth against R’ Elyashiv? You think R’ Elyasiv needs your advice on the agunos? What do you think – YOU have ahavas yisroel but R’ Shteinmen couldn’t care less?
Are you nuts?
(BTW All the geirim were passuled by a MIZRACHI Rabbi)
To be perfectly honest, from all the non-chareidi or anti-chareidi posters the ONLY ONE who comes off as being sincere, respectful & not full of themselves is SJSinNYC.
When she has a question about the hanhagos of chareidim she asks, she doesn’t spew hatred.
When she gets an answer – if it makes sense to her, she says thank you. If not, she asks again.
SHE DOES NOT HAVE AN AGENDA.
SHE DOES NOT THINK SHE IS G-D’S GIFT TO THE WORLD.
SHE DOES NOT INSULT, BELITTLE OR SPEW HATRED TOWARD CHAREIDIM FOR INSULTING, BELITTLING & SPEWING HATRED TOWARD MO.
SHE IS NOT A HYPOCRITE.
I have never gotten into an insult-fest with her & EVERY time we have debated we have either reached common ground or agreed to disagree pleasently.
In case all of you haven’t noticed by now I’m pretty disgusted by the hypocricy of all the chareidi bashers.
I’m sorry for all the ranting & raving but I’ve just had it with all the self-righteous rabbonim bashers complaining about the chareidim being self-righteous. Spewing hatred from one side of their mouths while saying they practice “Ahavas Chinam” from the other side. Who do you think you’re fooling?
WOW ! I usually start my dat ith a peek at YWN and allow myself some time later to make some comments…Well, I must say that I was totally blindsied by the comments of notpashut….And I feel the duty to answer him now.
What transpires time and time again from his words is what has been discussed numerous times on other postings and, by osmosis, in this posting.
NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE ever is “mevazeh gedolim’ as he writes. As a matter of fact, every poster, be he from YU, be he pro-zionist, be he a chabdnik, EVERY poster has the highest respect for every godol, regardless of his theological allegiance. Even the late Satmarer rebbe zz’l and Rav Shach zz’l are treated respectfully by all posters.
I dont’ want to point fingers here but this has not been the case by the “other” side towards the “other’ gedolim, but this is nto the purpose of this answer.
What notpashut (and others holding like him) want US and everyone else, is to ACCEPT unconditionally the view and the Psakim of HIS gedolim. this is the specter of immutable “daas torah’ again, which cannot be challenged.
The view of HIS gedolim are the right ones and no one should dare to think differently.
As he writes ; “what truly disgusts me is….the gedolim are wrong”.
Well, you know what, gedolim CAN be wrong and HAVE been wrong. You insisnt that the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l is WRONG and Rav kook zz’l is WRONG, so why can’t I (and others) think that Rav Elyahsiv is WRONG?
What makes Rav Elyashiv shelita infallible?
Sorry, I cannot accept this view of “daas torah’ and yiddihskeit.
WHY this spills into the area of ‘ahavas yisroel’ is when you see, facts in hand, that some gedolim are NOT responsive to major Jewish crises that affect thousands and thoushand of Yidden.
Do you have ANY idea what kullos Poskim used after the Holocaust to be ‘mattir’ agunos?They used every kulloh in the book to allow women to remarry because it was a major Jewish crisis.
WHY can’t Poskim TODAY use similar kullos to free the agunos of today, held captive by their evil husbands? There are plenty of ways of doing this but the mainstream Poskim have generally turned a blind eye to this crisis. NOw, this, to me, is a lack of ahavas ysroel.
When a Bais Din “passels” THOUSANDS of real geirim without even considering what it means to thousands of families, NOW that is a lack of ahavas ysroel. (Ran Sherman is NOT a MIZRACHI rav,btw)
When illustrious Poskim allow an eiruv to be built in Boro park, it would behoove the opponents to respect the other view and, at the minimum, not cast any chilul shabbos aspersions on the other side. Now that is a lack of ahavas ysroel.
So, please stop lecturing us about the infallibility of gedolim and use some humility in respecting the other view as a valid one. Thye just, just may be right.
RoB,
1) I think your response stregnthened my case.
BTW R’ Sherman IS a Mizrachi Rav.
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