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ubedrash amra lo shebeit abba haita malchut na’eh mishelcha chalila lahem im nir’eh le’echad mehem piseach yad oh piseach regel meguleh koolhon hayu mechubadin mimecha
(sorry – my havarah’s different than yours!)
and oomis – david must’ve hinted about it to yoav. shaul’s actions in the cave prevented his death – david couldn’t kill him after witnessing such greatness. when he returned to yoav, i’m sure he needed to explain why he let his persuer escape. and like joseph said – chazal didn’t make things up.
Re notpashut. I’m trying to figure out who it was that you deem obligatory to speak lashon hara of. I can’t quite follow the thread now but I am following the Chafetz Chaim courtesy of Guard Your Tongue and what can i say, this seems completely not pashut.
oomis1105
How did rashi know what H’ meant when He said Naaseh Adam?
PLEASE! They had Ruach HaKodesh and other ways of knowing things. They didn’t look it up in history books.
About speaking Lashon Harah about people who do certain aveiros, as Tzippi says, it is not pashut. There are a LOT t’nais that it depends on. I don’t recall all of them unfortunately but pretty sure it includes having the right intentions which the typical yente probably does not. However, based on the fact that it is allowed on condoned in certain situations is proof that there are situations where we deal with people in a not such nice-and-friendly-no-matter-what-way!
Not everything is ACCEPTABLE!
(I recently read a story in Horizons about someone who was very close with a Rosh Yeshiva who had EXPELLED him from school years before! How could that happen? The Rosh Yeshiva was warm to him and even instituted a program where the classmates could raise money to bring him back to school. there was also a behavioral program for the classmates to earn him back in class. When the bachur saw what was going on and how hard his classmates were working to have him back, he felt so good that it really worked and today his issues are over.)
Obviously there are times that people have to be pushed away but it has to be done in the right way and with the right intentions.
tzippi, (“Re notpashut. I’m trying to figure out who it was that you deem obligatory to speak lashon hara of.”)
SJS: if someone found out something like my friend eating out, the woman would be ostracized and a boat load of lashon hara would be circulating about her.
notpashut: It just so happens that the Chofetz Chaim (Klal 4)says that one SHOULD speak Lashon Hara about the type of person you describe.
Thanks to Joseph. I can’t check out my Guard Your Tongue now but a few thoughts:
– is this a situation where it is MANDATORY to give the benefit of the doubt?
– if not, is this is a situation where it is permissible or meritorious to give the benefit of the doubt?
– if not, to whom and under what very limited circumstances is it PERMISSIBLE to say lashon hara, e.g. for a shidduch, or for someone one who eats the person’s food?
– what is the obligation of the friend to first clarify the situation and if necessary give mussar? (Remember the old Hanoch Teller oldie but goodie about a congregant of Rav Schwab’s who had a medical condition necessitating him to eat immediately?)
This is for starters.
A person will very, very, very, very rarely lose out by NOT saying lashon hara, but will much more often lose out by volunteering it.
Tzippi,
If you would like I can cut & paste the entire “clal daled” but I’d prefer not to.
Thanx
illini,
The Chofetz Chaim was not in the Kiruv business & the purpose of speaking Lashon Hara about them is to protect OURSELVES.
It is EXACTLY to counter the “we can never say anything bad about anybody” (except black hatters) attitude you & Sjs constantly espouse which causes you to be “mushpa” from such people.
The idea of “accepting” & “not judging” anybody is a liberal goyishe concept which allows all kinds of immorality to seep in to our hearts & minds.
RABBEINU YONAH says black on white towards the beginning of Sha’ar gimmel that we SHOULD observe & JUDGE other people so as not to be “mushpa” from their bad deeds.
The chiyuv to be dan lekaf zchus does not apply to CONSISTENT aveira-doers.
Notpashut:
I don’t know how bad your self-control is, but I don’t find it necessary to open my mouth against another to keep myself from being influenced by them.
illini,
That’s exactly why you turned into such a “farcrumte” person.
I make it a habit not to judge others and leave that to Hashem, but make sure not repeat her mistakes. As I said, I DO NOT CONDONE WHAT SHE IS DOING AND THINK SHE IS 100% WRONG.
What I have actually been saying on here is that you should respect other piskei halacha, not that you should allow anti-halachic views into the mix. There is a big difference and I hope you can see it. If not, please let me know and I will detail what I mean.
Intellegent, I never said what she was doing was ACCEPTABLE, but I did say that I accept HER. I do not think that I am the person to out her to the community. In most cases, it is better to remain silent as I do not think pushing her off the derech is the thing to do. In most cases, you out someone because they are doing thigns wrong AND being a bad influence on others. In this case, its just her (and her husband).
illini07,
Is your remark better?
sjs,
Whether you can understand it or not, we follow the Chafetz Chaim’s approach in general. I don’t know of anyone who does not follow the Chafetz Chaim when it comes to Shmiras Halashon etc. Sometimes we put the Torah and the words of our Rabbanim before our own logic. (Although I did not either check it up so I am not confirming that that is what the Chofetz Chaim recommends)
Also, the way you explained your approach with your friend sounds different than when you originally mentioned it. When you use the word “accept” often it can somehow make it sound like you accept what she is doing.
As for following the Chofetz Chaim, I really need to read what he wrote about a topic like this. Also, while we follow the Chofetz Chaim, we dont do so in a vacuum and if I were going to blast her to the community, I would definitely speak to a competent Rav first.
Sjs,
1) I never said you need to get up & publicly announce it. I simply said that there is no issur to speak Lashon Hara about someone who cosistently does issurim that are mefursam. I added that the Seforim even say that one SHOULD speak negatively about such people to reinforce to oneself & one’s family that such behavior is UNACCEPTABLE.
This will not cause her to go off even further.
You could & most likely should still “be there for her”.
If one is a RAV or Rosh Yeshiva, perhaps they should “announce” it publicly as well, when I’m a Rav I’ll worry about that.
2) Your “habit not to judge others” is contrary to Halacha. The Chofetz Chaim says black on white mutiple times that there no mitzva to be dan lekaf z’chus such a person & says, on the contrary, the chiyuv regarding such people is to be dan kekaf chova.
3) Driving to shul on shabbos is an “anti-halachic view”.
4) I am not at all harsh with “people struggling with halacha”.
Believe it or not 🙂 I am actually very kind warm & patient with them.
I AM harsh with people like you who try to justify & not judge such behavior.
5)Ousting people from the community – it would seem to me – would depend on whether or not they are spiritually endangering others.
6) There is a difference between cheating on taxes & doing avairos publicly. (Obviously the people who cheat on taxes will have a good seat in gihennomm – although I try not to judge anybody – 🙂 )
Notpashut:
1) Actually, you said “It just so happens that the Chofetz Chaim (Klal 4)says that one SHOULD speak Lashon Hara about the type of person you describe.” The SHOULD is saying that I am SUPPOSED TO speak lashon hara about her. No one else knows that she eats out non-kosher so how would that affect them? I personally disagree that me speaking lashon hara about her would NOT push her further off the derech, but since you dont know her, I will have to ask you to trust me on this issue.
2) Perhaps this issue is one of semantics – when I say I don’t judge them, I mean that I see what they are doing wrong, don’t do it myself, but dont judge the reason they are doing it. That is up to Hashem to decide how/if they are guilty. Does that make sense?
3) I never said that driving to shul on Shabbos was ACCEPTABLE. There is a big difference between accepting what someone is doing, and finding it acceptable. I accept that for a Conservative person moving towards Orthodoxy, driving to shul might be extremely hard for them to give up because they grew up with it being ok. If asked, I would tell them that I always learnt it was not acceptable, but to speak with a competent Rabbi. But its not my place to “judge” (again, a semantics thing) the person for driving to shul, but I would make sure not to follow in their footsteps.
4) I dont try to justify their behavior (giving an explanation is not JUSTIFICATION), just to understand that everyone struggles with different things. I have a feeling if we were having this discussion in person, you wouldnt feel this way about me.
5) As I said in this case, my friend is not spiritually endangering others, just herself.
6) The difference between cheating on taxes and eating out at a non-kosher restaurant is this: cheating on taxes is STEALING FROM MILLIONS OF PEOPLE. There is no way to slice it differently. You are stealing from both Jews and non-Jews. You are stealing from poor people who need food, the health care system, road maintenance, Police, Fire Department etc. My friend is doing something wrong on a personal level that will generally affect her and her ONLY. The attitude of “whats not nice we dont show” is a level of hypocrisy that definitely puts people off the derech.
Re notpashut:
Guard Your Tongue chapter 3 deals with giving the benefit of the doubt. The next chapter deals with someone who transgresses mitzvos between man and Hashem. Yes, it specifically states on p. 59, 9. Shaming a Willful Transgresser that one is permitted to tell others about his misbehavior, shame for his wongdoing, and that one should NOT give such a person the benefit of the doubt.
HOWEVER, while according to the letter of the law, one is permitted to speak lashon hara about such a person if one doesn’t censure him first, it is still proper to rebuke him before you publicize his wrongdoings.
IOW, one should NOT speak lashon hara unless one has first given such a person mussar. And you know how crucial it is to be sure one does that properly, with love in one’s heart and the person’s best interests at heart.
Turn the page, p. 60, where there is a brief outline of the conditions that must be met to be able to speak against such a person. You must witness it yourself unless it is established; you must be absolutely sure it was a transgression; you are not allowed to exaggerate; you must have beneficial intentions; you must not derive pleasure from this.
NOW elsewhere and I can’t spend more time on this, the Chafetz Chaim talks about protecting our CHILDREN from bad influences and IIRC it may even be permissible to exaggerate slightly there. But I think there is a difference between a kid, with whom one’s child spends a lot of time, and an adult family friend. If it is possible to talk about the family friend in tones such as nebach, they are going through nisyonos, B”H we have a solid footing etc. then for sure that would be the correct approach, I would think. And if one had any hopes of maybe being mekarev the friend, then for sure one would speak and deal with them lovingly.
Also, question here: there is no obligation to give a person the benefit of the doubt, in fact one should not. But does that only apply to mitzvos bein adom laMakom, or all mitzvos?
SJS – just for the record – the sign of a big rav is not how easily he says “assur.” anyone can say that something’s assur. (and unfortunately anyone can say things are muttar and people will buy it too…) but my point is that a great rav knows halacha well enough to honestly pasken when something is muttar and when it’s assur. so don’t go on saying that the blacker the hat, the more things are assur. no, it’s probably based on the fact that they know what they’re talking about a DROP!
wothin the black hat world it’s very apparent that if you’re looking for a heter you go to a big rav. that way you get a psak that is thoroughly thought through and from a person you trust.
brooklyn19:
Rashi beitza 2b
you’re telling me to look it up??? sorry i don’t do that! but you could tell me what it says.
You quoted it
oh did i? that’s pretty cool. cuz i’ve got no clue what you’re talking about
Sjs,
1) I don’t think that the Chofetz Chaim meant to say that you are need to go around telling the whole world what a Rasha she is, he simply means that one should DENIGRATE those who DO avaoros befarhesya & not the people who recognize that that is what should be done.
2) Not sure what you mean.
3) Again, not 100% sure what you mean, but it sounds like we may be in agreement.
4) Probably true, but my point is, don’t bash the people who recognize that we don’t have to stick up for those who do avairos.
5) No problem.
6) As I already pointed out, those who cheat on taxes are definitly getting box seats in gihennom. I am NOT sticking up for them. I’m just saying that that is an aveira b’tzina about which the Chofetz Chaim does NOT say that one may speak Lashon Hara about them. (There are numerous reasons for that) As opposed to someone who does avairos b’farhesya.
Granted, their hipocrisy is despicible & unjustifiable & could cause people to go off the derech.
See, once again we CAN reach some common ground. 🙂
Tzippi,
The Chofetz Chaim himself points out that oftentimes tochacha is couterproductive in which case it should not be done.
In the case of Sjs, all the conditions have been met. (Being informed by the aveira doer of his repeated misdeeds is as good as witnessing it). Also when there is a “kol d’lo passuk” i.e. the persons aveiros are done publicly & everyone knows about it, it is permitted to believe it.
I always tell my childrem in the langauge you describe, i.e. “nebach, you see them driving on shabbos, they must not know that it’s assur, oy, how sad”.
Howevever it must be CLEAR to oneself & one’s family that such behavior is UNACCEPTABLE.
Additionaly, once your kids are older, they sometimes know that it’s not “nebach they don’t know”, it’s just “nebach they don’t care”.
Finding excuses for & rationalizing the behavior of people who flaunt the authority of Torah & Rabbanim is WRONG & BAD CHINUCH for oneself & one’s family.
I hope this clears the air.
Notpashut,
There is a concept of tinok shenishba by somone who was brought up not frum and was never really shown what yiddishkeit is all about (wich is alot more then just SEEING frum jews).
i forgot who it was, but a heard that the concept of “tinok shenishba” barely exists in the world anymore because most secular jews are exposed to frumkeit somewhere along the line. i could find out for you if you’re interested.
i have a question on that too, though. what does “exposed to” mean? plenty of people are exposed to the wrong side of things and therefore perceive it in a bad light. kinda not fair to a guy living way out in hawaii who never heard of torah before in his life. does that count? i wonder.
brooklyn19,
You may be right about it not applying anymore, but i have the same question you do (about people not percieving yiddishkeit for what it really is or for being exposed to it in the wrong way.)
well that makes two of us
I hate to rain on someone’s parade,but the last comments,about ‘tinok shenishba”, illustrate perfectly the drift towards “chumras” that is making a caricature of yiddishkeit today.
Why take a very strict interpretation of “tinok shenishba”- that is, that the child should NEVER have had any contact with Jews, rather than the more lenient one that says that the lack of Jewish education and surroundings qualify someone as ‘tinok shenishba”, regardless whether he/she had some contact with Jews?
If you go only by the first one, you make thousands of jews sinners,not exactly what we should do at any juncture.if you take the latter view, then , you are giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, which is, incidentally, the Middah of Hakodseh Boruch huh and emulated by the chassidische rebbes.
Why the chumro indeed…..
Of COURSE they’re tinokos shenishbu. The Judaism they’ve been exposed to is so ersatz that it can’t negate that, and the genuine Judaism they may have had exposure to surely couldn’t counter that.
I heard a fascinating speaker, Reb Simcha Weinstein, who wrote a book called Shtick Shift, about the Jewish impact on comedy. He would be the first to say that while “everyone is Jewish” (no one changes names, Jewish comedians don’t hide what they call their Judaism – as opposed to the Marx bros., Jack Bennys of yore who did, or who acted as WASPY as they could get away with – and I’m not quoting him exactly here) the Judaism on display now is pretty cosmetic and empty. So I can’t believe that there is serious discussion of people not being tinokos shenishbu.
And look in E”Y, R”l, at kids who don’t even know Shema! Don’t tell me they’re not tinokos shenishbu.
Anyone go to the Inspired gathering last night, or catch a hookup?
rob,
I think your right, what your saying makes sense.
R.o.b.,
Also could you post a mekor who holds of the more lenient view?
Thank You!
thnks ROB – i guess that answers my question
000, Putting aside whether rob is right ot not, this is a perfect example of your sorry approach to halacha. YOU cannot cherry-pick what YOU like best and THEN go and try to find a mekor afterwards to support what YOU want.
Joseph,
What on earth are you talking about?
i did not say i hold either way is true for sure and then try to find a mekor.
All i said was that R.O.B.’s thing made sense and that i think he is probably right so i asked him if he could post a mekor,
and even if he dosnt if no one posts a mekor (or svara) that argues with him since what he is saying makes sense i dont see any reason to think that he is wrong.
If you have either a mekor or a svara saying he is wrong please post it
000:
You are changing the facts (again.) ROB gave two opposing views. You then said regarding ROB’s preference “I think your right. Also could you post a mekor who holds of the more lenient view?”
So you decided that you like the more lenient view, and are then (after the fact) trying to find a mekor to support the leniency you want.
rob & 000646,
I can’t figure out here what’s the kula & what’s the chumra, but it’s really irrelevant.
Rob,
I really have no clue what you are talking about. The only question here is WHAT IS THE HALACHA?
All these ideas about dan lekaf zchus & thousands of sinners are very heartwarming, but nevertheless the question is WHAT IS THE HALACHA? As jews our job is to follow shulchan aruch. If shulchan aruch says that thousands of people are sinners – then that is what they are.
If shulchan aruch says not to be not to be dan lekaf zchus – then don’t.
If shuchan aruch says that they are tinokos shenishbu – then they are.
PERIOD.
And the ones who decide what the halacha is, are THE RABBONIM, not me & you.
To come & say “why should we be machmir”? “why should we be maikel”? “why sould we do this”? “why should we do that”? is not using your seichel.
Ask a Rav what the halacha is & do what he says, Period.
The Big One,
R.O.B was clearly advocating the more leineint view.
I said i think the more leinient view is probably correct as it makes perfect sense and non one has posted a single mekor or svara that argues with it so i asked him for a mekor.
were have i changed facts?
nit picking on my words when you are unable to win a single argument with me, just makes you look stupid and immature.
Would everyone please think before they personally attack anyone.
Also it is customary to add that emphasis was added when it was not placed there by the author.
Thanks.
The Big One,
you said “You are changing the facts (again.)”
If it makes you feel good to say i changed the facts here (wich i didnt do) because you cannot think up any good arguments against what i say but you cannot accept that just maybe you are wrong, thats fine beleive it and feel good- we could all pretend you got me!
However were ELSE have i “changed facts.”
Notpashut:
OK, I just misunderstood what you said that the Chofetz Chaim was saying.
Brooklyn: your statement implies modern orthodox rabbis are less knowledgeable than yeshivish ones, which is incorrect. However, if you look at the gray area of halacha and analyze how each society does things, you will notice my statement is generally true.
Tzippi, Rabbi Simcha Weinstein is a good friend of mine! He also wrote another book about comic book characters. He is very smart and funny!
“So you decided that you like the more lenient view, and are then (after the fact) trying to find a mekor to support the leniency you want. “
What TBO seems to forget is that the lenient view is just as valid as the stricter one. Eilu V’eilu divrei Elokim Chayim. To say to someone, “So you DECIDE that you like the more lenient view…” sounds like you are giving the person mussar for that, when in fact, there is nothing whatsoever halachically wrong with a permitted leniency. It is a leniency for a reason. The danger lies in presuming lenient view = less frum. This is one of the biggest problems we face in the chareidi world, this view that unless one holds to the chumrah, one is not as frum. There are basic halachas we must follow, and if we are following them as Hashem gave them, then we are being mekayeim the Torah. If I DECIDE to pick a more strict view, that is my choice, but it does not make me a better Jew. It may be that I pick the stricter view because I know in my heart I would be nichshal otherwise, because of a failing in myself. Again, that does not make me a better Jew, but rather a mayvin on myself. For those who manage to follow the halacha l’maiseh, even without the chumras, they are doing ratzon Hashem, just as the macmirim are.
Sjs,
I think you are right that it is starting to sound like we agree, I just want to clarify a bit more.
It’s not an issue of keeping score. Hashem has taught us in his Torah many times that people who do things wrong are going to gehennom. That’s just the way it is.
Again, I’m not saying we have to walk around all day telling every person we meet that so-&-so is going to gehennom. It’s just the way it is.
Your thing with “accepting” things REALLY irks me (in case you haven’t noticed 🙂 )
I just don’t get it. Based on the explanation you just offered it sounds like what your saying is “I accept that osama bin laden wants to kill as many americans as possible”.
You have no control over it, so you accept it.
If that IS what you mean, so who cares if you accept it or not? It’s a fact of life.
When you said (in the past) things like “I accept her the way she is” you IMPLY that you CONDONE her behavior, (despite your repeated denials of this), because if it just means you accept that it’s a fact of life, who cares? She does it whether you accept it or not, so the statement is really irrelevant.
The concept of “tinok shenishba” states, in one sentence, that people who don’t know any better being that they were raised with no knowledge of frumkeit are not responsible for the aveiros they do.
As you can imagine, who is & who is not included in this category is a HUGE shaila, hence all the nasty rhetoric.
Just to stick my two cents in, I think if we would all remember the point oomis just brought out, we would have a lot less sin’as chinam and we would bring Mashiach a lot faster.
“Non-observant Jews are captives to their upbringing, prisoners to the powerful and enticing society around them. They are not potential baalei tshuva, for they have never consciously left Torah. No, my friends, they are all tinokot shenishbu, Jewish souls that were stolen at infancy and denied access to their rightful heritage.”
Rav Noach Weinberg
Let me get this straight: the “lenient” view of tinokos shel nishba says that most people ARE. How do we know that gedolim who hold this way are in actuality not being MACHMIR on ahavas Yisrael?
There was mention of what the Shulchan Aruch says on this. Obviously one is not going straight to the Shulchan Aruch but a qualified rav to interpret it for the 21st century as this kind of widespread assimilation is something of an anomaly. So what does the same qualified rav say about using the internet for the coffee room?
notpashut, I think if you reread my previous posts, I said that I dont condone it (read back on this post – I was really careful to make sure I was understood). I accept that they are going to do it, and I am still going to have them in my life. I guess thats where the accept comes in – I accept them into my life still. I understand that they have shortcomings and still have them in my life. That is what I mean by I accept her for who she is (I hope thats a little more clear).
The same way you accept that there are people in your life who do various aveiros (even “small” ones – lashon hara for example. You may ask them not to speak it in front of you, but people who really have the taiva will still be talking lashon hara when they leave you), you accept them for who they are, knowing they are doing something wrong and hoping that they will change, but you dont kick them away.
When the car driving thing came out, one of the points I was trying to get across was that we cannot say “I am a better person than Ploni because I dont drive to shul.” Others were trying to state things like that. No one is perfect, and I leave the “score keeping” to Hashem.
As for tinok shenishba, is there some halacha that matters here on Earth? I was always told that tinok shenishba matters when you die. Hashem can make that determination. I’m not sure what everyone is up in arms about if thats the case.
Thanks, GivPerf.
SJS – I didn’t say that – you did. And I don’t mean smarter or more knowledgeable. But more insightful. And si’ata dishmaya? Maybe.
sjs,
“so I accept her for who she is & what she is doing”.
Those were your exact words the first time. Those were the words that stuck in my head being that you have written similar things in the past.
Now you say that you don’t accept what she is doing. I’m not chas v’shalom accusing you of being a politician (no greater insult than that!) & I truly believe you when you have now explained your true feelings. I just want you to understand why I’ve been so foreceful about it. Now that you have CLEARLY explained yourself, apparently we are on the same page.
Tinok shenishba has MASSIVE PRACTICAL RAMIFICATIONS in myriad ways, such as Lashon hara (which started the whole discussion), yayin nesech & many, many other areas.
SJS, I can’t help being up in arms about the tinokos shel nishba issue. No, none of us are Hashem’s accountant but the point is, whether we view them as t.n.s. or not in this world impacts how we treat them. I’m with Rav Noach, shlita (who should have a refuah shleima) all the way on this.
Gavra at work,
Thanks!!
I’m looking at my last post. Doesn’t this we and them bother anyone else? Aren’t we all parts of the same guf?
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