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I noticed a few times lately at a Vort that there was a open card on the flowers from the chosson to the kallah. Perhaps everyone was busy setting up the vort & it was an oversight that it was left there, but I can tell you that my daughter’s did not share their chosson’s card with anyone, not even me, much less have it on public display! Do you feel there is a lack of tznius? sense of privacy? something? in our generation?
Yes, OP. It is a breach of tznius. Thank you forbbringing it to the tzibbur’s attention.
I would assume that as much as a girl/kallah feels good being able to show off her chosson (that he bought a nice poem), they would much rather a serious and deep personal connection.
I think it’s a bit of immaturity. Most adults wouldn’t want private messages from their spouse to become public.
These days many people have these messages written by strangers for money, so they’re pretty generic and meaningless, I think.
My mother hangs up the notes my father gives her, but it’s ok cuz nobody can read his handwriting anyway. 🙂
I know FIRST HAND from asking a few of my friends when they were chossonim that the poem that was “on display” was more a text book (albeit handwritten) note, NOT the personal one they wrote to the kallah! In that case what’s the problem?
Sister bear- its ok for children to see the notes. They learn how to treat their spouse.
In that case what’s the problem?
Same goes with giving gifts in public. Besides for the serious halochic issue (possibly rendering them married, right then), it also takes away from the personal connection gift-giving can create.
Again, I would assume that as much as a girl/kallah feels good being able to show off her chosson, they would much rather a serious and deep personal connection. Ladies/girls, please correct me if I’m wrong here
If the card was generic, without any personal references, then I don’t see the problem with it being on display. Why would you say this is different then flowers given from a neighbor, with the card being exhibited?
Very valid point!!! But don’t forget this was at a Vort about which you can ask the same question !!!
The more private the the gift giving is it is waay more meaningful
its an avlah. the hashchasah of our dor is appaling. Amuligiyurin in the alter heim this never wouldve happened!!!
I dont want to know the nusach of the note you saw on the flowers, rather am interested if it was a personal note from the chosson to the kallah or was it a generic line he picked up from a friend in yeshiva (or more likely, his sister wrote for him)? If the former, I would worry more about the lack of common sense displayed than the lack of tznius, if the latter, is it any worse than the flowers themselves?
I often leave small love notes on heart-shaped Post-Its around the house for Eeees. When she finds them, she hangs them up in the kitchen. Currently the entire doorframe leading from the kitchen to the dining room is covered in them. She says that it reminds her. 🙂
That reminds me that I need to pick up more Post-It notes.
The Wolf
Why judge what other people do? If you like it follow the trend if you don’t then don’t follow. If it means something to someone else then let it alone. If it feels wrong to you, then look away.
This should be our worst problem in klal yisroel, chosson cards and lots of vorts to go to!
Very valid point!!! But don’t forget this was at a Vort about which you can ask the same question !!!
What do you mean?
apushatayid: They are not generic notes, nor are they written by the chosson himself. Its a purchased poem using the letters of the kallahs name to start each line. The samples I saw were all mushy.
aries2756:
Why judge what other people do?…
Does the same apply if someone chooses not pledge allegiance but just mumble along?
BTW, this was a discussion about whether its the right thing to do, no about judging people.
A purchased poem? Does the kallah know this?
I was told they are all aware. “Its whats done”
“I often leave small love notes on heart-shaped Post-Its around the house for Eeees. When she finds them, she hangs them up in the kitchen. Currently the entire doorframe leading from the kitchen to the dining room is covered in them. She says that it reminds her. :)”
Total lack fo tznius. Do people see this when they visit yur house?
The poskim all agree that things of affectin between manand wife should be kept as little as possible and even then what theyre is should be kept private. Writing love notes is goyish and chukas akum. Keeping them out in plain veiw is a total lack of tznius, and oiver on lifnei iver and kedoshim tihiyu.
I often leave small love notes on heart-shaped Post-Its around the house for Eeees. When she finds them, she hangs them up in the kitchen. Currently the entire doorframe leading from the kitchen to the dining room is covered in them. She says that it reminds her. 🙂
Aww!
mosherose: Do the poskim say that about husband and wife notes (if it’s kept private)? Whch Poskim
There is a mashal about someone who traveled on a ship and he decided that he wants to have a swimming pool beneath his seat so he starts to brake the floor of the ship, would everybody on the ship say listen I’m not going to look what he’s doing, definitley not because if someone breaks the floor of the boat everybody will drown, Dear brothers and sisters when one of our fellow brother and sisters don’t behave like a Yiddish neshama is supposed to, we must all say to ourselves we are in danger the boat is about to sink, klal yisroel is one, we should always remember whatever we do “Will hashem be happy with that”
Lots of luck
if no personal reference, and many times its written to be displayed – what is the problem?
yes, people do purchase it. if he doesnt know how to write, he would buy it same as he would buy her a ring.
Chassonim, I sugget you tell your Kalla: “I prefer you do not display it” if thats what you wish.
OTOH, I know a girl who wrote her classmate a nice poem for her engagement, which the couple included in an album of cards, and shared with friends. One bochur, a friend of the chosson was impressed with the depth of midrashim combined (a rarity in our day and age, huh?) and was asking if the writer was a single girl. Today they are a happy couple.
His original interest was created based on her depth, thinking, talent, expression.
if no personal reference, and many times its written to be displayed
this no ones business except the couplefe. the card is on display in HER house,…It’s not the end of the world to express your affection on papaer to the one you are about to spend the rest of your life with…More people should take “note” and do the same…
Re: kids seeing the note, when I was a teen (many moons ago) I once babysat at a very Chashuva Kollel family. While there I had to go into the master bedroom to get the crying baby. On the dresser was a note opened with the most beautiful note that he wrote to her. I was in tears from reading it. No, I should not have read it and I do feel bad about it, but I am happy I did because I saw what real Yiddishe romance is about. And I’m one of those who had a shock at Kallah Classes!
mosherose, I agree. Why do I have to go to someone’s home and see an “I LOVE U” note on the fridge. Personal spouse relationships are private. The more pple openly feel the need to have to display their notes and openly talk about the love btwn them and their spouse, the less confident and the less they probably love eachother.
If you are confident with your relationship you dont need to convince others.
Why do I have to go to someone’s home and see an “I LOVE U” note on the fridge.
Ah, so now you want to dictate to me how I am allowed to decorate my home and not.
How about this: If I put “I LOVE YOU” up on the fridge, it’s not meant for you. It’s meant for my wife. That you happen to visit a week or two later is really incidental and inconsequential. It’s not put up for you and (shocking, I know), we really had absolutely no thought at all of you when it was put up.
There are only a few select people who we really mean to see it — each other (obviously) and our kids (so that they might have a model for seeing ways in which couples can express love for each other).
Personal spouse relationships are private.
Some aspects of it are, some less so. Or is it your contention that, in public, my wife is no more than my roommate?
The more pple openly feel the need to have to display their notes and openly talk about the love btwn them and their spouse, the less confident and the less they probably love eachother.
I beg to differ with this bit of “conventional wisdom.” I would not be surprised to find that there may well be some people who put on a display to fool themselves about the security of their relationship, but I highly doubt that you (or anyone else) has the data to actually make the general case you are making.
I also suppose that, by the same token, you think that photographers who display their work are not secure in their abilities, athletes who play in public don’t believe they’re any good and actors and actresses are all secretly convinced that they’re no good and are just looking to reassure themselves.
If you are confident with your relationship you dont need to convince others.
Not everything that other people is meant to convince others. If I mail a card to my wife with “I love you” on the outside envelope, I’m not trying to convince the mailman that my relationship is secure.
The Wolf
Wolf,
A) WOuld u hang your bank statements on the kitchen wall and when someone walks in say – “I didnt have u in mind at the time.”? Why is it not enough for you are your wife to cover your bedroom walls with love notes. I assume your kids are allowed in your bedroom so they would see it there. WHy does your love and relationship have to hang all over your kitchen.
B) Athletes and actors perform their talents in public for benifit of others. They entertain. Are you putting out love notes as a source of entertainment for your neighbors and friends?
Just to end off, your relationship with your spouse, which is hopefully as beautiful as you make it sound, is the biggest treasure in the world. Love notes in the open, and openly speaking about personal relationships is CHEAP. Your wife, yourself and the bond btwn you, deserve better.
A) WOuld u hang your bank statements on the kitchen wall and when someone walks in say – “I didnt have u in mind at the time.”?
C’mon… you’re not actually equating an “I love you” with a bank statement, are you? If a stranger comes into my home and sees my bank statement, there is the potential for identity theft. No such problem exists with an “I love you” on the fridge.
Why is it not enough for you are your wife to cover your bedroom walls with love notes. I assume your kids are allowed in your bedroom so they would see it there.
Your assumption is wrong. Our kids do NOT go into our bedroom unless explicitly invited (which is very rare).
WHy does your love and relationship have to hang all over your kitchen.
You make it sound like our entire relationship is on display. It’s not. Our relationship is quite deeper than simple love notes. There’s a certain amount that we allow to be public and a certain amount that is private. I’m sorry if where we chose to draw the line offends you. I’ll be sure not to invite you to my home.
B) Athletes and actors perform their talents in public for benifit of others. They entertain. Are you putting out love notes as a source of entertainment for your neighbors and friends?
No, it’s not for entertainment. But that’s not the issue. You maintained that people exhibit things because they are unsure of themselves. I believe that I have refuted that. And, even if you hold my example of athletes and actors invalid, what about other examples I gave, such as photography. I don’t take photographs to entertain, but I do enjoy showing them. Does that make me (and lots of other photographers, artists and the like) unsure of themselves?
Love notes in the open, and openly speaking about personal relationships is CHEAP.
Again, I don’t believe it to be so. I believe that a certain amount of openness is not inappropriate. Again, you may choose to comport with your wife as if she were simply your roommate in public or even within your home outside of your bedroom. But that’s your choice and if that’s what you want, then all the more power to you. But don’t seek to force your relationship choices on others.
The Wolf
Very well said, Poster.
POster:
Any different than a cabinet full of silver or a Lexus in the driveway? At least Wolf has something to brag about, good Shalom Bayis (may we all be Zoche).
C’mon… you’re not actually equating an “I love you” with a bank statement, are you? If a stranger comes into my home and sees my bank statement, there is the potential for identity theft. No such problem exists with an “I love you” on the fridge.
well of course any analogy is exactly that an analogy not an identity. but it seems to me this is a pretty good one. a bank statement is private and, for whatever reasons, one would not want others to see it. the maker of the analogy here is assuming that love letters between a husband and wife are also private and one should reasonably not want others to view them, for different reasons than identity theft.
true one can bring financial ruin and the other may cause no harm whatsoever, but the point of the analogy is that a reasonable person should have a strong desire to keep both matters private, albeit for entirely different reasons.
i personally have no interest in what wolf does in his house
the point of my post above is that wolf likes to be flawless in his logic. i thought he was a bit remiss in this case
love letters between a husband and wife
I feel an important distinction needs to be made because this term gets tossed around a lot.
The notes I leave around the house for Eeees are not long-winded love poems intended to express the breadth and depth of my feeling for her. They are not highly intimate, full of the language of romance and all that. They aren’t “mushy” and the type that would make the average person blush. They’re simple “I love you” or “I was thinking of you today” or things of that nature. They are more general, not intimate at all and, as said earlier, short enough to fit on a Post-It.
The former types of writings, by all means, should probably be kept private and that is the practice in our home. The latter not so.
The Wolf
well
i entirely retract my last two posts then
wolf likes to be flawless in his logic.
I have never (to my recollection) made the claim to have flawless logic.
(Yes, you qualified it with “likes to,” but then again, I think just about everyone likes to have flawless logic – so if that was your meaning, it would apply to nearly everyone else too.)
Poster…sounds like you need a hug…just make sure no one sees it 🙂
i entirely retract my last two posts then
So now you *do* have an interest in what goes on in my home? 🙂
The Wolf
youre right
i didnt say you claimed it
it was an observation
it is my observation (opinion) that that tendency applies to you more than most posters
that’s beautiful, Wolf; my thought when I first read your post was ‘awww’ 🙂 .. how long have you been married, if you don’t mind my asking?
i retract my retracted post and reformulate it in its place in the chronology of the thread as stating:
“i retract the portions of my previous posts that stated and/or implied that there was a significant flaw in wolfs logic vis a vis his statement arguing on the validity of the analogy between the said notes and the open and public display of bank statement.”
CHAZAL say that Rochel wasn’t going to tell Leah about the simanim between her and Yaackov because it was a LACK OF TZNIUS THAT THEY HAD A PRIVATE RELATIONSHIP. The relationship between husband and wife is a private matter between the two of them. The kids will pick up on their love without them breaching tznius.
Ouch! I got a headache just trying to figure that out. 🙂
The Wolf
WHEW! I am not touching THIS one. But I will say this – I have never heard of a poseik who paskened on this topic. BTW, in what way is this vastly different from singing Aishes Chayil to one’s wife in front of company, or even more, at one’s chasunah, as is the minhag of many?
CHAZAL say that Rochel wasn’t going to tell Leah about the simanim between her and Yaackov because it was a LACK OF TZNIUS THAT THEY HAD A PRIVATE RELATIONSHIP.
Yes, but that was before they were married when you might argue that it might have been improper to have a private relationship.
Or are you implying that having a private relationship after marriage should also be kept secret? Should people not know that I’m married? Is it a lack of tznius if people know I have a wife? I would think so since your entire analogy is based on the fact that the very existence of a relationship (and not whether or not people know about it) is a lack of tznius.
The Wolf
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