Cholov Yisroel Powdered Milk Kulah

Why would you need a kulah to drink cholov yisroel? Am I missing something?

from R’ Heinemann star-k

There are some Torah scholars who permit the use of powdered milk which is made from regular milk since it is not in its original form when it comes into Jewish hands. Most people who are careful about Cholov Yisroel do not rely on this lenient ruling.

You can’t make powered milk out of pig fat, so if it is powdered milk, you know it isn’t pig fat. Or hooves.

the Poskim who rule on this issue dont believe it is irrelevant. The many people who keep Cholov Yisroel and eat dairy donuts dont believe it to be irrelevant

youre right i am not well aware of the inticacies involved.

i eat dunkin donuts because my Rav (also a Posek) said i could.

mod-80: could you ask your Rav if he is aware that powdered milk is made today from camels’ and horses’ milk? google powdered camel/horse milk, and you will find thusands of sources.

I did a little research on this. Most of this stuff comes from Mongolia (certainly not sold in the US as ordinary milk for human consumption). It is used here primarily to feed the offspring of those animals, who for one reason or another cannot feed from the mother. It is not sold in supermarkets as milk, and I am not doubtful it is even available commercially to anyone other than farmers or zookeepers.

“could you ask your Rav if he is aware that powdered milk is made today from camels’ and horses’ milk”

The only milk products that can be legally sold in the US today are from cows, sheep, and goats. There is a serious effort to legalize the sale of products from camel milk (if you own a camel farm you can produce it yourself and some Amish do that), and there was a news article last year of a human woman who made cheese from her breast milk.

dy: I’m not debating whether Poskim were once matir, the question is do any Poskim matir under today’s metzius?

“That is clearly no longer true! “

I’m not sure it was ever true. Camel milk has similar properties to kosher milk.

oomis: the premise to be lenient on powdered milk is that it is physically impossible to make from non-kosher sources. That is clearly no longer true! “

I think that refers to cheese, not to powdered milk (although I am hearing it is no longer true about cheese, either). Why should there be any difficulty in making unkosher powdered milk from ANY source? The water in the milk is completely evaporated through a process, and what is left is the powdered residue. It is reconstituted with water when needed (i.e. to feed a baby horse or csmel).

From the NY Times:

WITH cheeses in all shapes, sizes and aromas so easily found, a new curd can have trouble standing out. This is not likely to be a problem for Caravane.

The dairy that makes Caravane is run by Nancy Abeiderrahmane, who is also its founder. Born in England and raised mostly in Spain, Ms. Abeiderrahmane, 61, married a Mauritanian politician and eventually settled in the country in 1986.

She started the dairy, now called Tiviski, in 1989. Nomads took their camel herds to her, and soon she was collecting, pasteurizing, bottling and selling more than 500 gallons of milk a day.

At some times of the year supply outran demand, and this made her wonder if she could make the milk into something with a longer shelf life, like cheese. But unlike that of cows, goats and sheep, camel milk does not have the proteins to curdle naturally. Ms. Abeiderrahmane contacted a camel expert in France who had discovered an enzyme that aids curdling, and made him a technical consultant. Production began in 1994.

Mr. Guthrie, an importer and entrepreneur who has worked mostly with electronics, was on a hunt for camel milk in 2007 after reading about its health benefits. Camel milk is rich in nutrients like iron, and vitamins C and B, according to a 2006 report from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations.

He approached Ms. Abeiderrahmane, and by September was peddling half-pound samples of Caravane to New York retailers and restaurants. Some of those that declined to carry it initially are nevertheless keeping an eye on it.

Daas Yochid

“However, he also writes that government supervision makes it reasonable to assume that it’s from cow’s milk, and this part does seem to hold true today.”

using that line of reasoning, you should equally be matir ALL milk, not just powdered. i dont understand why that reasoning should be more applicable to powdered than not powdered.

“the g’zera was not made on powdered milk”

Powdered milk as we know it today did not exist until the 1800s; it is impossible for Chazal to have specifically included or excluded it.

using that line of reasoning, you should equally be matir ALL milk, not just powdered. i dont understand why that reasoning should be more applicable to powdered than not powdered.

R’ Moshe ZT”L is matir all milk based on that reasoning; Rav Tzvi Pesach ZT”L apparently disagrees, since there was a g’zeira. He maintains, though, that powdered milk was not part of the g’zeira.

The main question here is: can someone who generally uses Cholav Yisroel milk also enjoy a Hershey Bar, assuming that a Hershey Bar is made with powdered milk? I see it as YES, since (1) the same heter which makes Chalav Stam into Chalav Yisroel in the U.S.A.;

This discussion is about differentiating between regular milk and powdered milk.

(2) the g’zera was not made on powdered milk;

That’s a machlokes; the Chazon Ish says it was. See my earlier post for Chelkas Binyamin’s proof.

That’s irrelevant to the essential heter, and wouldn’t either create a “shas had’chak”. That reasoning does apply to pas palter to make it eina m’tzuya, but it doesn’t apply here.

Daas Yochid

“R’ Moshe ZT”L is matir all milk based on that reasoning;”

thats perfectly fine. i dont take exception to being matir all CS. i am pointing out though, using that reasoning (like R’ Moshe) you have to be matir ALL CS; it doesnt make sense — to use THAT reason — and say only powdered is okay. iow, if you are machmir on CY only, that reasoning doesnt help you be meikel on powder. (it would only make sense if you are meikel on all of CS, if you go with that reasoning.)

“He maintains, though, that powdered milk was not part of the g’zeira.”

where does he say it wasnt part of the g’zeira? like charliehall pointed out, powdered milk didnt exist at the time of Chazal. so when Chazal made the g’zeira they never excluded powdered milk.

Wrong.

in any event, who even said hershey’s uses only powdered milk rather than actual milk?

It’s relevant if you’re concerned about being machmir per Rav Moshe, as a bal nefesh would eat only a cholov yisroel Hershey Bar if it were available and all things were equal. In this case, the bal nefesh chumra does not apply as there are no Hershey Bars made with cholav yisroel milk.

So in your opinion, not having Hershey’s is a shas had’chak?

Wrong.

Why?

Another problem with the powdered milk heter is that its source is from butter, and the exemption for butter only applies if the milk was intended from the start to be used only for butter so according to some, the issur of Cholov Akum was never relevant to this milk. However, if the cow was milked for drinking or unspecified purposes, that milk is immediately forbidden and does not lose its Cholov Akum status to become Kosher when it is churned into butter.

This is true of all our powdered milk today which is milked commercially.

A lot of people rely on this heter, even though the Chazon Ish disagreed.