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There are two fine, and otherwise equal, Yidden. One spent his entire life being careful to only consume Cholov Yisroel dairy products. When he traveled he either took along CY or avoided dairy. At home he spent the extra dollars, despite his meager income, on always buying only Cholov Yisroel dairy products for his family. Despite the extra costs, hassles, and times he couldn’t have his normal dairy foods when travelling, he was always happy to serve Hashem.
The second fine Yid lived a righteous life almost the same way as the first. The only notable difference was that he happily consumed Cholov Stam. He had his Hagan Daazs and M&Ms at home, work and away. If Ben & Jerry’s was on sale or cheaper than Klein’s, Ben & Jerry’s was the brand he put in the family freezer.
Will the first Yid get any more Olam Haba than the second for having been careful to only eat Cholov Yisroel and not Cholov Stam?
The question is ridiculous.
How could there be halav yisrael in Gan Eden? Adam ha-Rishon and Chava weren’t Jews , so the only milk they had was halav stam. No one had halav Yisrael before Sinai.
There are two fine, and otherwise equal, Yidden. One spent his entire life being careful to only purchase the music he listened to. When he traveled he either took along the CDs he purchased or avoided music. At home, too he spent the extra dollars, despite his meager income, on always buying music products for his family. Despite the extra costs, hassles, and times he couldn’t have music when travelling, he was always happy to serve Hashem.
The second fine Yid lived a righteous life almost the same way as the first. The only notable difference was that he happily copied music from his friends and from illegal download sites and file sharing. He had his Yaajov Shwekey and MBD at home, work and away. If Benny Friedman & Miami Boys’ Choir was available for download, Benny Friedman & Miami Boys’ Choir was the music he put on the family stereo system.
Will the first Yid get any more Olam Haba than the second for having been careful to only purchase his music and not sponge off of someone else’s hard work, time and money?
There were two big reshaim. One spent half his day trolling in the YWN CR, and one spent half his day kvetching to his friends in the real life coffee room about people who post on the assur internet.
Which one gets more olom habah?
Was the milk in the coffee room cholov Yisroel?
Joseph, assuming both people were following their poskim, they get equal reward.
Why do you ask ridiculous questions here, when you know that no one here can tell you with any authority who gets what portion in Olam Habah?
The Wolf
Wolf, you’re right. I’m sorry.
No need to apologize, DY.
The true answer, of course, is if I’m one of the two people, then the other person has a better Olam Habah by default, regardless of what I or they do.
The Wolf
How would you possibly know?
How would you possibly know?
Because I know my own deeds, thoughts and motivations.
The Wolf
Wolf: It is untrue that it always cannot be ascertained in advance whether a certain activity, action or behavior will provide one greater schar in olam haba than the absence of engaging in it.
Fine, whatever. If you want to believe that you’ll get more Olam HaBah than your neighbor for eating only CY, I’m certainly not going to stop you. Nonetheless, I’ll let HKBH decide, thank you very much.
The Wolf
Wolf, how can you say that, when you know that no one here can tell you with any authority who gets what portion in Olam Habah?
Wolf, how can you say that
How can I say that I’ll let HKBH decide?????
The Wolf
No, how can you say you’re worse than the other person.
No, how can you say you’re worse than the other person.
Oh, I misunderstood. I answered that above.
Wolf: If someone says Tehilim every day (aside from what’s in davening) will he get schar in olam haba for that? Or do you contend there is no way to know whether he will get more schar than if he lived his life exactly as otherwise except that he did not say Tehilim every day?
No, I don’t know that. How can you be so certain that you do? Perhaps there is a *better* use of one’s time than saying Tehillim (yeah, I know, that borders on heresy…). Perhaps HKBH wants me to do something else instead. Perhaps I could be doing tzedaka, learning or even earning a living and supporting my family during that time. There are times when it’s appropriate to put away the Tehillim and do something else.
Or maybe He just doesn’t want my Tehillim.
The Wolf
No, you haven’t answered that, because you don’t know the other person’s thoughts, deeds, and motivations.
I dare say you don’t really know what they think of you in shomayim either, but you’ll deny that, so we’ll leave that alone.
I dare say you don’t really know what they think of you in shomayim either, but you’ll deny that, so we’ll leave that alone.
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.
The Wolf
Joseph: “Is it your contention that if someone’s Rov told him that it is not halachicly required to use CY, then his using only CY will not gain him any favor with Hashem or provide him any reward in olam haba?”
It is my contention that the Gemara says that when he gets to Shamayim HKBH will ask him why he did not enjoy the Haagen Daazs that HKBH specifically put in this world for him.
Sam: So you disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein that a baal nefesh should not eat cholov stam, i.e. Haagen Daazs.
Who ever said we are discussing a Baal Nefesh?
Sam: IIRC you were the one who tried to avoid music at dinner time. With all due respect, IMHO something has caused you to become more cynical lately and it would be wise for you to address (not here) whatever it is. If I’m wrong I beg your mechilah, as I don’t want to hurt you and don’t know you IRL to care one way or another, just thought perhaps you are unaware.
Regarding Haagen Daazs you don’t honestly think that even if Chalav Stam is okay, every Yid needs to taste every Kosher food/ ice cream out there in order to follow the dictum of enjoying Hashem’s world?
Mammele, chalk it yo to Sam being a victim of Joseph’s successful trolling.
Which is a bigger Zchuis
eating Chalav Yisroel if you live in Borough Park or eating CHalav Stam out of town where even most Ice Creams do not have a hechsher (Only in NYC area do all Ice Creams have Hechsher, OOT except for Breyer ,Dreyers (Eddys) Haggan Daze and Ben and Jerrys they do not
Joseph how dare you! you forgot Entenmanns.
Obviously we don’t know the cheshbonos that occur in the Beis Din shel Ma’alah. So why bother to guess?
Redleg: Like I just said, we don’t know. I do know that I was told that anyone who went through the horrors of the concentration camps has a ticket straight to the highest levels of Gan Eden after they pass away. Just look at the story mentioned in the ‘Specific Holocaust Story” thread, where R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l said (after a woman kissed him!) that she is holier than him, because she had numbers tattooed on her arm.
DM, that was the point of my post. Some folks who shall remain nameless have a rather inflated view of their place in the Cosmos. Such a view is unwarranted and they may be in for a surprise when the Bill is presented. The believe that being makpid on cholov Yisroel gives them honors points at the Heavenly Hilton. They’d better be careful that they don’t end up in the Room next to the ice machine.
Mammele: I think I’ve maintained a healthy amount of cynicism for the last 5-10 years. 🙂 To seriously address your question, I have personal practices because they are what I feel Hashem wants from me. Whatever the particulars of those are don’t matter. I in no way imagine that I am gaining anything that anyone else isn’t by keeping any Chumros that I have. Just because I feel the Sugya goes one way and therefore I have to act in accordance doesn’t mean that I imagine that someone else who a) doesn’t know the Sugya or b) reads the Sugya a different way is any worse in the eyes of Hashem than I am. I will leave the judging up to Him. So long as one acts in accord with legitimate Halachic practice, I will never have the arrogance to claim that I am better or have more Schar than them. And I feel it necessary to strongly disagree when others do that.
Joseph: You are confusing what Ba’al Nefesh Yachmir means. You have the cause and effect backwards. You are assuming that being Machmir makes one a Ba’al Nefesh. It doesn’t. It means one who already is a Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir. And I will contend that a Ba’al Nefesh gets the same Schar for keeping “CY” as a Stam person does for keeping his version of CY, i.e. Chalav Stam. Does the Ba’al Nefesh have a bigger Chelek for being a Ba’al Nefesh in the first place? Maybe. But that’s really not anything for anyone down here to decide.
If you think of yourself as being more righteous than your neighbor what will be your lot in Olam Haba?
Only Hashem knows and cheshbons our ultimate sachar. It is not for us to decide that one person is ever so slightly more favored in His eyes because he drank cholov Yisroel or said extra Tehillim, or gave a dollar more to Tzedaka than someone else, or wore black and white, etc. etc. You and I do not really know what His cheshbonos are and in my very humble opinion, it is a tiny bit arrogant to make assumptions in this area. I have some other thoughts as well but am keeping them to myself.
Joseph: If your Rav tells you to only eat CY, then do that. I’m sure it won’t be held against you! But don’t think that those who aren’t makpid on it are doing any worse than you are. My Rav has told me many times that it’s fine for me to eat Cholov HaCompanies.
I actually have a neighbor who is makpid to only eat CY. Why? Because his family used to live on the Lower East Side, in the same building as R’ Moshe zt”l. R’ Moshe once told my friend’s father, “You are a baal nefesh, and should be makpid to only eat cholov Yisrael!” So he did so, and so does his family.
Joseph, I’m sure if you’d eat Haagen Daazs ice cream purely lishma, to appreciate what Hashem gave you, you’d be doing just fine. But honestly, how many people are at that level? My Rebbe, R’ Bender shlita, once commented to us that he saw someone on Shabbos sitting with a big plate full of cold cuts, stuffing them into his mouth. R’ Bender said something to him about how he was eating, and the guy replied, “Rebbe, it’s l’kavod Shabbos!” R’ Bender asked, “Really? Are you sure you shouldn’t be saying l’kavod mine boich?”
Most likely, none of us are at that level (I can’t say for sure). I just follow the Torah and halachah as best I can, and rely on my Rav for guidance.
ZD, it seems to me that there’s not a lot of mesiras nefesh for the OOTer to buy only Haagen Dazs, Ben & Jerry’s, etc. He’d really prefer Piggly Wiggly’s store brand that (according to your scenario) doesn’t have hashgacha?
Joseph
Where did you get the notion that there is a limited amount of olam haba that has to bed divide up?
Even if there isnt enough olam haba to go around and it must be divide up,why cant we leave that to the ribono shel olam?
While on the subject though, my rebbe R’ Shurkin (a talmid of R’ Moshe) would often say you get double schar for eating chalav stam: for keeping kosher and for listening to the pesak of a gadol.
Glad to see you’re back, oomis.
I BUMPed an old thread to post an all points bulletin searching for you, and here you are.
I have to say I agree with you.
But it’s not just “a tiny bit arrogant to make assumptions in this area” as you say; I think it displays not just one’s arrogance but also one’s ignorance.
Eons ago (or should I say many many posts ago) Torah613T explained it all perfectly, clearly, and in only four words!
Joseph: Because he’s a Ba’al Nefesh. Which comes with its own requirements and expectations. Hashem judges everyone on their own level.
Let me ask you a similar example: A Sefardi won’t use an Eruv (let’s say it’s Kasher for all Ashkenazi Chumros) because it has a street 16 Amos wide inside it. An Ashkenazi will. Does the Sefardi get more Schar? Do Ashkenazim get more Schar for all of our Chumros in Hilchos Shechitah? WIll HKBH take Schar away from Sefardim for eating Kitniyos? Why/why not? And how is this different?
Joseph – that is ridiculous even for you. Oh please. Anyone who is machmir on cholav yisroel is doing so because it is what is right. Whether or not the people who eat Cholav Hacompany (yes, you are 100% wrong in calling it chalav stam. if it was cholov stam nobody would be eating it) are also right is irrelevant. We don’t keep mitzvos or chumros because we get extra schar for it.
And i have found that that way of thinking is exactly the basis for the rude and self righteous attitude people are speaking about. I have run into so many people who have a need to put other people’s ways and lives down because they dont want to believe that someone could be “enjoying extra stuff” and still be right in Hashem’s eyes. They need to stomp them down to keep that image that all their sacrificing and deprivation is getting them something. How about just serving Hashem because its right? Try having some pride in the mitzvos you keep and you wont feel deprived or sacrificing. If you keep your nose and eyes out of other peoples schar and “enjoyment”, i can almost assure you that you may just get that olam habah you are looking for.
Joseph
“So even if are to grant CS is muttar, as numerous authorities do, does that then negate those adherents from receiving greater schar?”
I dont know. That is above my paygrade. If the ribono shel olam really wants my opinion. Sure give them more! the more the merrier!
I dont make it a habit to try to limit opther people’s olam haba.
There is room for us all to get whatever we deserve.
“There is the fact that a baal nefesh should refrain from CS even though its muttar.”
so for a non baal nefesh….
cmon you can work this out
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