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this is NOT to be a discussion of whether or not one should keep C’Y
i would like to hear Halachic opinions about the parameters for those that keep it
does it apply to all milk products, or some, or only milk itself
i have heard different things about hard cheese, cottage cheese, butter, powdered milk, whey, lactose, etc.
In my house we only eat cholov Yisroel- Which goes on ALL milk products. Milk, cheese, yougurt, butter….
Rambam Ma’achalos Assuros 3:10-13
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?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??, ???? ?? ????? ???????–???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????; ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????.
?? [??] ????? ???????? ???? ?????? ??????, ?? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ?? ?????? ??????–???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????: ???? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??????, ??? ???????? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ???? ????–?????, ???? ???????? ???? ?????.
?? [??] ????? ????? ??????, ?? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????–???? ???? ??? ?????. ????? ?? ?????–???? ?????? ??????, ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ????; ????? ?????? ?????, ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??, ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???????, ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??, ??? ???? ?? ??? ????.
It seems there is a separate Gezairah regarding Hard cheeses, above CY, which applies even if the “milk” base is CY, and even if we know the process was koaher. That does not apply by butter, if it is solid (if it is semi-solid, then we are worried that it is still partially milk, and that milk may be from a non kosher animal).
i believe it’s called gvinah akum and is because the used to coat their cheeses with lard to keep them fresh
That could be true, but the Rambam I quoted says it is because they created their cheeses in the stomach of a nevailah.
as for the second question, it seems according to that shita, then no.
I was told by someone from Kehillah Kashrus in Brooklyn, that on powdered milk there is no need to get cholov Yisrael. He specifically mentioned Entenmann’s, because their products are made with powdered milk. His exact words were, “I’d have their products in my house if only they weren’t so fattening!”
EDITED
There are two issues that need to be bifurcated.
(1) g’vinas akkum – no supervision at all
(2) cheese that has a hechsher but allows chalav stam (e.g. OU-D)
My personal practice is to keep cholov yisroel, except for butter and hard cheese, as is brought down in Pischei Halacha. However, I would not buy a cheese or butter that did not have a hechsher on it at all. IOW, The milk that is used as an input may be chalav stam, but the end product proves that it was kosher milk (since it became cheese or butter), and the process is certified by a kosher agency to ensure that there are no “other” inputs.
The only food I am aware of that we still consume without any supervision of the process is alcoholic beverages (beer, whiskey, etc)
The whole point of CS is that you can rely on the power of the government to insure it is kosher. Therefore, would unsupervised (i.e. no hechsher like OU-D) plain milk be undrinkable by someone who is maikel on CS (and why)?
I am makpid on Cholov Yisroel. I do not drink plain milk unless it is Cholov Yisroel.
Hard cheese and butter are an exception, as brought down in Pischei Halacha.
Those who are not makpid on Cholov Yisroel do drink plain milk without a hechsher, as you said.
Feif Un – “I was told by someone from Kehillah Kashrus in Brooklyn, that on powdered milk there is no need to get cholov Yisrael. He specifically mentioned Entenmann’s, because their products are made with powdered milk. His exact words were, “I’d have their products in my house if only they weren’t so fattening!”
Yes, there shitos that say that the original geziarah was only on milk in its liquid form, not when it’s powdered. However, not everybody agrees so as always, ask your LOR.
Mr. Mod:
From the Rambam, he seems to be discussing the reason for the Gezairah, but it is up there, you can read it yourself & make your own conclusions.
Assuming the cheese is kosher, even if not Cholov Yisroel, I am told that certain cheeses can ONLY be made from the milk of kosher animals. Something in the cheese will not do something or other, if the milk is not cow, goat, sheep, etc. But the cheese must have a hechsher in all cases.
mw13: I originally wrote the name of the person, but it was edited out.
The OU recently published a list of items that require no kashrut supervision, and milk is on the list:
Feif Un – Not my point. All I was saying is that it’s not universally accepted that the gezirah was only on liquid milk, so ask your posek what to do.
There are different minhagim regarding butter made from Cholov Akum, which according to Rishonim cannot physically be churned when containing milk from a non-Kosher species. Some Poskim also consider milk powder to be in the same category as butter, since it too presumably cannot be made from non-Kosher milk. Shulchan Aruch YD 115:3 rules that one may follow a minhag to permit butter, but without a specific minhag to be lenient it should not be used without supervision. However, it is questionable if is these lenient opinions are relevant today, when modern advances in food science have enabled manufacturers to develop new methods and enzymes that could allow butter and powdered milk to be made from sources that were previously impossible.
Also, many varieties of butter have liquid milk added to them after the churning stage to give them a richer, milky flavor. There is no assurance that this milk could not come from some different species of animal. Additionally the exemption for butter only applies if the milk was intended from the start to be used only for butter and the issur of Cholov Akum was never relevant to this milk. However, if the cow was milked for drinking or unspecified purposes, that milk is immediately forbidden and does not lose its Cholov Akum status to become Kosher when it is churned into butter.
For those who are in interested in a comprehensive overview of the
issues in English here are two links
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single_print/5688
To the Esteemed Moderator: I once called Rabbi Heinemann personally and asked him if he held that Cholov Yisroel applied to powdered milk. He told me that he NEVER said there was a difference. And if you click on the Star K link from Shouldn’t be here, at the bottom it says that some poskim are meikel, but they don’t recommend following that.
Mod-80: chabad.org has the moznaim translation of the Yad on line. Here is the link to the chapter gavra quoted:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/968259/jewish/Chapter-3.htm
BTW, while we’re on the issue of kashrus of cheese, some of the more learned members might be able to clear something up. Until relatively recently, all cheese was made with animal based rennet, including kosher cheese. All rishonim and acharonim paskened that rennet was muttar because it was broken down to the point that it was no longer meat and hence not subject to basar b’chalav (I seem to recall seeing this inside in yoreh deah 87 somewhere but I could be wrong). If so, why do kosher cheeses now use only vegetable rennet?
ItcheSrulik: “All rishonim and acharonim paskened that rennet was muttar because it was broken down to the point that it was no longer meat and hence not subject to basar b’chalav”
It is not commercialy viable to manufacture kosher animal rennet. rennet from a neveila is forbidden
Itchesrulik,
Almost all NON-kosher cheeses in the US use vegetable or biotech rennet.
That does bring the shilah of whether vegetable or biotech rennet is actually rennet, or equivalently, whether cheeses produced with such “rennet” have the halachic status of rennetless cheeses. I have been told by several different people that Rov Soloveitchik indeed held that way, but he may have been a daat yachid.
To those worrying about milk products from non-kosher animals, you can’t buy it in the US. You can produce it on your own farm and give it away but you can’t sell it. There is however a serious effort to legalize the sale of camel milk in the US.
Charlie,
On another thread, I posted an article from the NY Times which indicated that camel cheese is, in fact, being sold in the US.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/cholov-yisroel-powdered-milk-kulah#post-218503
Daas Yochid,
Thanks! I was unaware of that. I was able to confirm the NY times story from several other sources; the camel cheese comes from Mauretania.
And it is legal to import camel dairy products. Here are the regulations:
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/regulations/vs/iregs/products/downloads/as_dp_info.pdf
It is NOT currently legal to produce camel dairy products and sell them across state lines. I can’t see how that will continue much longer since we now are importing small amounts of camel cheese, and some farms are producing camel milk for local consumption.
BTW I also found a link to some bison cheese that is produced in small quantities in the US. The American bison is a kosher animal as it can interbreed with domestic cattle and produce fertile offspring.
Thanks again!!!
Charlie,
No problem.
One of the fascinating aspects (to me) about that article was that without the added enzyme, the camel milk’s own proteins do not allow curdling. This is what the gemara says about b’hema t’meia milk; I don’t think anything changes today unless there would be a reasonable concern that they are actually labeling it as kosher cheese; we don’t make up our own g’zeiros.
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