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hello99,
No non-kosher milk is currently produced in the United States, so the heter IS relevant. Essentially, the only thing that would make milk non-kosher is the addition of non-kosher additives; about ten years ago a particular brand of milk marketed in New England lost its hechsher because it added a non-kosher additive.
about ten years ago a particular brand of milk marketed in New England lost its hechsher because it added a non-kosher additive.
Can you elaborate?
If it is possible, and obviously legal, to include a non-kosher additive in American milk, how can anyone rely on the original heter for CS which at the time it was issued was based on the assumption that all American milk must be kosher based solely upon USDA regulations and enforcement.
Mazal77: R’ Belsky has a teshuvah about the procedure done to the cows. I believe the issue is that some cows get gas trapped in their stomachs. The procedure releases the gas. I might be wrong about the details of the procedure, but I know for sure what R’ Belsky said about how it affects the kashrus.
The concern is that the surgery renders the cows a treifah. R’ Belsky observed the animals, and he disagrees. A treifah is an animal that will die within a year due to a disease or other issue. The best-known example of this is a cow with a hole in its lung. We assume the cow will die soon, so if a slaughtered cow is found to have such a hole, it’s a treifah, and can’t be eaten.
R’ Belsky observed many animals that had undergone the surgery. He saw that the vast majority of them lived more than a year (obviously some died, as there are many other things which can cause a cow to die other than the surgery.) Therefore, he paskened that the cows are not considered treifos.
So if you have a specific and particular individual cow that has had ths surgery and this particular cow dies within a year, then Rav Belsky paskens that it still is not treif?
Even if he paskens like that (and I do not know either way, that he does or does not) would all other Rabbonim agree with him?
If any Rav would disagree and paskens such a cow would be treif, then it would seem to me that someone who holds by their Rav who paskens, that such a cow is treif, then that person, if he drinks only C’Y’…..Would not be simply “following a chumra”, since he does not know, if the C’S’ milk from the cow that he might right now be drinking could be from, such a cow.
He would be keeping kosher, as paskened, by his Rav.
hereorthere,that might be so, but how could he then eat anything that the OU certifies as kosher?R’ Belsky is the main posek for the kashrus division of the OU. Most kashrus agencies rely on the OU for many things.
Feif Un; He might rely on OU when the product is something like a non milchig candy and not meat or anthing which needs to be bishul Yisroael.
Besides, who says he would ‘necessarily’ hold by OU in such a case, anyway?
hereorthere: I’ve never seen a teshuvah written on the subject other than R’ Belsky’s. I’m not saying they’re not out there, just that I haven’t seen them. R’ Belsky is probably one of the most knowledgeable people in the world when it comes to kashrus, and there’s nothing wrong with relying on a psak from him.
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Feif Un; Untill very recently I had never heard of Rav Belski, but since then, from what I have heard; I only have the greatest respect for him as he sounds like a Giant among the Gedolim.
I certainly NEVER insulted him or any other Gadol, nor did I ever say there was anything wrong with those who hold by him in everything (and don’t just go “rav shopping”, only for the most meikel opinions on each subject) also holding by his psak in this case.
And there is nothing wrong with those who rely on those other psakim either.
EDITED
hereorthere: My Rav doesn’t have anything to do with hashgachos. Yes, if I have a question of bassar v’cholov in the kitchen, I’ll call him, but he doesn’t certify kashrus on anything. Most Rabbonim don’t – they rely on the major hashgachos. Going by R’ Belsky is not “Rabbi shopping”, it’s simply following the main posek of the largest kashrus agency in the world.
cherliehall: You misunderstood me, I meant the heter of powdered milk and butter is no longer relevant since today these products can be made even from non-Kosher milk using enzymes.
For powdered milk, I was told by R’ Scheinerman (he heads Kehillah Kashrus) that the reason is not because it ccan’t be made from other milks. He told me the reason is that the takanah on milk was never made on powdered milk, therefore you don’t have to be machmir on it. He went so far as to tell me “If Entenmann’s doughnuts weren’t so fattening, I’d eat them all the time!”
hello99-
As you say, the heter is no longer relevant today. But I can give you plenty of counter-examples where an issur is no longer relevant today, or a gezeira is no longer relevant today. Would you apply your logic to that as well?
Wolf: I just read your post about why CY might not be required in the US, and I think you misunderstand R’ Moshe’s heter. He holds that government regulation creates an “anan sahadi” and that it is equivalent to a Jew witnessing the milking.
All:
Rav Moshe himself, who is the primary source of the heter, wrote in a later teshuvah (reprinted in Rav Binyomin Forst’s Hilchos Kashrus Hebrew edition) that since there is no longer a significant price difference, “tzrichim l’hasig”. Rav Moshe was not unaware of the price differential, just that it became less drastic as the years went on.
Wolf: I just read your post about why CY might not be required in the US, and I think you misunderstand R’ Moshe’s heter. He holds that government regulation creates an “anan sahadi” and that it is equivalent to a Jew witnessing the milking.
OK, that might be true. I might have misunderstood it. But even so, what’s the practical difference?
The Wolf
Daas Yochid: That was not a teshuvah for the general public, it was one specific case involving a yeshiva.
Feif Un: The fact that Rav Moshe decided to include it in the Igros Moshe, means it WAS for the general public.
squeak: If a gezeira is from Chazal it remains in effect today even if it is “no longer relevant.”
Trying my best: The letter was in Rabbi Forst’s sefer. I didn’t know it’s in the Igros Moshe.
Again I did not say that anyone “was” Rav shopping.
I just said that if someone would hold by Rav Belsky ‘only’ when his Psakim were meikel and then hold by another rav for some meikel opinion in another area then to still a third Rav for his meikel opinion is still some other areaand so on and so on.
That ‘would’ be, Rav shopping.
If you read the indroduction to Igros Moshe, it says that the sefer is not halacha l’maaseh. Rather it is for someone to learn and also also learn the sugya and then come to his own conclusion.
hereorthere: Most people just ask their Rav. Many Rabbonim will give heterim based on many different poskim. That isn’t “posek shopping”. I don’t know anyone who eats cholov stam whose Rav is against it. The heter from R’ Moshe is given by all Rabbonim who allow it (which is almost everyone).
Rav shopping? Nothing wrong with it as long as you follow the psak after the shaila has been asked of the Rav.
I once called a famous Rav in Washington Heights with a shaila because I heard that he was maikle in a certain thing. To my surprise, he was not but I had to follow his psak since I asked him the question. Also, I once asked my Rav a shaila on the very sensitive and delicate matter and he told me that he was machmir in this inyan and that I should ask Rav____ because he had a different opinion which was l’kula.
What about chumra shopping; anything wrong with that, because that what a lot of you in the CR do?
To all you machmir guys:
If I told my Rav that I drank CS, he might not give me a high- five; but if I told him that I post on the internet, he would shoot me.
cherrybim: “Rav shopping? Nothing wrong with it as long as you follow the psak after the shaila has been asked of the Rav.”
First of all NOT TRUE. Secondly, Rav Moshe Feinstein writes in Dibros Moshe that if you know there is a machlokes haPoskim and you have not personally asked a sheila you may NOT follow the lenient opinion unless you are personally a Posek, rather it is considered a safak and on a d’Oraisa you must go l’chumra.
Chumra shopping is also wrong, you may note that on the CY thread I am promoting the kula side with you.
Thanks.
Rav Moshe – “and you have not personally asked a sheila “.
That’s what I said as well. “Rav shopping? Nothing wrong with it as long as you follow the psak after the shaila has been asked of the Rav.”
So hello99, what do you mean by, “First of all NOT TRUE.” ?
Cherrybim; If you know your Rav is totally without question, against posting on the internet and you are still doing it, then on what basis should anyone listen to what you have to say since your are already by your own admission, sneaking around on the internet, deliberately going against what your own Rav would say about it?
I never said that asking your Rav and being redirected by him, was Rav shopping.
I said that ‘only’ following meikel opinions, and always looking ‘only’ for a Rav who is meikel on each given issue, was Rav shopping.
And if that is a halachichly acceptable way of doing things, it goes against everything I have heard about the subject, till now.
Feif Un have you personally taken a poll of all Rabbionim to ‘know’ how “they all” hold?
Some Rabbonim (like mine) might say that “there are those who hold by Rav Moshe’s heter”.
That is not the same as saying, “that Rav”, holds by it, as well.
cherrybim: I think I was very clear. You must ask all your sheilos to YOUR Rav, not each sheila to the Rav who you expect will give you the answer you want to hear.
hello99 -“I think I was very clear. You must ask all your sheilos to YOUR Rav.”
Oh really; I don’t see that in your response to my post.
hello99
Member
cherrybim: “you have the option to choose the way to go if there is a machlokes of poskim”
NOT TRUE, unless you are a Posek yourself. Get yourself a Rav and follow his psak l’chmra or l’kula.
All this talk of following your posek and Rabbi shopping make good points and is an interesting topic, but it doesn’t have much to do with the original question in the thread. The question was why do people still eat chalav stam?
I think that question was answered. Better tasting products most of the time, cheaper cost, and milk that lasts much longer without spoiling. (Perdue chicken may be better tasting, cheaper, and last longer than kosher chicken, but that too doesn’t have much to do with the original question in the thread.)
Mods, I think this thread can be closed now.
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