- This topic has 230 replies, 41 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 7 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Rabbi Gronesh (sp) is a very well respected Rav in the New York Flatbush area.
Last week he told me very clearly in no uncertain terms that the requirement for Cholov Yisroael was L’chatchila.
And he said it more then once making sure I heard it clearly with no uncertainties whatsoever.
When I asked him about those who eat Cholov Stam who quote Rav Feinstien and the idea that in America Cholov Stam was relied on in that the laws requred it to not have anything in it that would make it trief (not that American law was made for Kashrus’ sake but in this case, it works out that way) Rav Gronesh told me that
there are those Rabbonim who rely on the idea that C’S’ according to them fulfills the requirement for C’Y’, and some people follow that.
But he made it clear that there is no question whatsoever that
C’Y’ is L’chatchila and that C’S’ is not “the same” as C’Y’.
As I have said before I personally am no scholar and do not know these things.
This is what a very well respected Rav, who gives Heschers all over the world (from what others, not the Rav himself has said in response to my questions about why he sometimes did not join the minyan in his shule, for a few days at time), has told me.
Those who argue with my repetition and understanding of what the Rav said, can ask him themselves.
Those who argue with the ideas themselves, are not arguing with me, they are arguing with the Rav.
So it seems that Rabbi Gornish said that he holds that Cholov Yisroel is lichatchila, whereas there are others [who follow Rabbi Feinstein’s psak] and hold that “CS fulfills the requirement for CY” or in otherwords, they essentially are the same.
Reb Moshe doesn’t hold they are equivalent, otherwise Reb Moshe wouldn’t have told people who are baalei nefesh to not eat CS.
Rav Moshe is a posek for everyone.
Ich Vais Shoin Alles when I asked the Rav that question, he specifially said they are ‘not’ the same.
So as I said, if you think differently, then you are arguing with the Rav, not with me.
Cherrybim obviously if there are Rabbonim who do not hold like Rav Feinstein and people legitimately follow those other rabbonim then Rav Feinstein was ‘not’ paskening for ‘everyone’.
Or to put it another way; I believe Rav Gronish will also pasken for anyone who asks him a sheila he will not (to my knowledge) tell someone “You are not chasiddish, so I will not pasken for you”.
Are you saying that Rav Feinstein would eat from all those heschers you mentioned, that Rav Gronish would not eat from?
For anyone to say or suggest, that Rav Gronish ‘changed’ his halachic views, because of who he married is to call into question his integrity because of politics.
I think one ‘may’ (I’m not sure, but I would not want to be the one to do it, and then find out, the hard way) have a lot to answer for, in The beis Din Shel Meila, to talk that way about any Gadol Hatorah.
There is nothing wrong with being someach on R’ Moshe. All Chadisshe poskim hold it’s better to only drink C”Y including Rav Gornish (see I know how to spell his name). R’ Moshe didn’t hold that way.
Reb Moshe did hold that CY is better. Reb Moshe said anyone who is a baal nefesh should only use CY.
There is nothing wrong for someone to change their hanhagos when they marry into certain families, Rabbonim have done it all the time; even my own Rav. And no one has questioned Rav Gonish’s integrity.
But I know Rav Gornish going back over forty years and he has certain chumras which is incorporated into his l’chadchila hashgacha, and that’s why people of like minds use him.
“Are you saying that Rav Feinstein would eat from all those heschers you mentioned, that Rav Gronish would not eat from?”
There is no reason to say that Rav Moshe would not have eaten from these worthy hashgachos.
Saying “there is no reason Rav Moshe would ‘not’ eat from them is not the same as saying he did.
For example; unless you are claiming that Rav Moshe did not keep pas Yisroael, and Bishul Yisroeal, then some of them like OU, are not heschers he could have eaten from (at least not those items where such things would be issues; Like any cereals and breads or cookies etc…) .
Same thing for meat, I do not know that the Rav would eat meat of any and all, of those heschers.
I do not know that he wouldn’t have, but we cannot derive halacha or how a Rav would pasken, based on what people might ‘assume’ he ‘supposedly might have’, done.
hereorthere – “Are you saying that Rav Feinstein would eat from all those heschers you mentioned, that Rav Gronish would not eat from?”
I’m using your logic, so unless you know otherwise, I’ll assume that Rav Moshe would have eaten OU Heinz ketchup and Tam Tam crackers and KAJ or Weismandl chickens, to name a few.
Can we get back on topic over here?
Why do people still use CS?
Because it’s cheaper, better, more availability, and we’re not baalei nefesh so we’re not allowed to be machmir.
IVSA: Of course you’re allowed to be machmir. Especially if one is striving to be a Baalei Nefesh. Even if one is not yet a Baalei Nefesh, one can strive to be a Baalei Nefesh by acting as Reb Moshe says a Baalei Nefesh should act. Some people may not be a Baalei Nefesh yet… but they certainly can work on themselves becoming a Baalei Nefesh, and by eating Cholov Yisroel would be one step closer towards becoming a Baalei Nefesh.
I am not a baal nefesh nor a lamdan. What I do know is that all of us, the kadosh boruch hu excepted, are finite and have finite resources. Therefore, whenever we are machmir in one area we are, of necessity, meikil in another.
The extra money spent on Cholov Yisroel cannot be spent on a nicer arba minim and cannot be given to tzedaka. And so on.
So what are we to do? Everyone must choose their path in life – in this season between Pesach and Shavuot it seems appropriate to quote Pirkei Avot – Eizo derech sheyivror lko adam… asei l’cha rav.
Let us also remember shiv’im panim latorah. So the converse also holds. Someone who is “meikil” on CY is likely machmir on some other mitzvah and deserves our respect for that.
Finally, you could all move to Israel where most of the milk is Cholov Yisrael and the choice is between “Rabbanut” CY and “Mehadrin” CY.
Enjoy your dairy products on Shavuot.
It’s absolutely incorrect to say that those who only eat Cholov Yisroel are meikel in something else to compensate. In fact, Reb Moshe himself (amongst others) would only eat CY (Reb Moshe threw up once when someone told him something he just ate may have been CS) and he certainly did not become lax in another area of halacha as a result.
Cherrybim posted;
;;;;;;;;hereorthere – “Are you saying that Rav Feinstein would eat from all those heschers you mentioned, that Rav Gronish would not eat from?”
I’m using your logic, so unless you know otherwise, I’ll assume that Rav Moshe would have eaten OU Heinz ketchup and Tam Tam crackers and KAJ or Weismandl chickens, to name a few.:::::::::
My response;
You are ‘not’ “using my logic”, because I simply asked a question
(which you still haven’t answered).
Unlike you, I did not ‘assume’ anything.
qa
The gemara says that someone was once being machmir for aveilus on yerushalayim on a level that he was presumed not holding at, and the (Jewish) government threw him in jail. When they found out he was greater than they had thought he was and he really was holding there, they let him out. There are plenty such examples in the gemara where it clearly teaches that one who is not holding somewhere shouldn’t act as if he is. One must be makir mekomo. Otherwise, one can do all the chumras and get carried away with himself, thinking he is perfect when he actually has loads to work on. See Alei Shur, the chapter on self-knowledge, I am only repeating what he said. So there is much basis for those who say it is assur to be machmir if you aren’t a ba’al nefesh. Furthermore, this is the psak I have been given by my rav, and so I have heard first-hand besheim both R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven, so don’t just assume so simply that R’ Moshe didn’t hold this way.
Your logic that one is a ba’al nefesh until he proves himself otherwise is faulty too, because 1) a person is not born a ba’al nefesh, and 2) most people are not ba’alei nefesh, and therefore there is both a rov and a chazaka to refute your claim. Anyone who’s learned some gemara and poskim knows these are perfectly valid means of determining the halacha.
I actually learn the opposite from that story; That no one ELSE (other then the persons own Rav) has the right to judge them and decide what level ‘they think’ he is on.
Also, if any Rav paskens that even if two things are permitted, but that when both are easily available, that one should use the “more machmir (for lack of better terminology)” choice then obviously one who holds on that level even when it is a bit less easy to do so, is not being arrogant in holding by “high levels” that he has no business thinking he is on.
If that were the case, the Rabbonnim would have warned against it and certainly none ever did, regarding Cholov Yisroael, that I have heard about.
I further think, that if some Rav had given such a warning, someone would have posted it on this thread, by now.
yitayningwut, There is a difference between that (the example you cited of him going above and beyond the law) and eating Cholov Yisroel. CY is the default position and the l’chatchila. CS is a “heter”.
And anyone can work on himself becoming a Baal Nesfesh, even if he isn’t a Baal Nefesh yet. One thing towards that goal, is to only eat Cholov Yisroel.
hereorthere – “Unlike you, I did not ‘assume’ anything.”
Years ago EVERYONE, including Rav Gornish, accepted and used the “Big Five” hashgachos; so we have every right to assume that Rav Moshe did also, especially since his Yeshiva and his family did.
heretofore –
I have no idea how you got that from the story. In the story they put him in jail and nobody had a problem with that, they held it was the right thing to do. It was after they tested his Torah knowledge that they saw he was an adam chashuv and worthy of being machmir that they let him free, but they never changed their principle that one who isn’t holding there should not be machmir.
What you are saying about a rav is something I reiterated over and over again in my previous posts. Of course one has the right and should follow whatever their rav says. But apparently no one on this forum seems to be mindful of that, because if they were I wouldn’t have to defend my position of c.s. being mutar gamur even not b’shas hadchak – something I also reiterated many times that I got from my rav. So obviously I’m only arguing to those people who “my rav paskened this way” isn’t enough for them, which I don’t agree with, but I’m trying to defend my position against them anyway.
And just because no kol korei came out in the yated against being machmir doesn’t mean there aren’t rabbanim who hold it isn’t proper to be machmir. Like I said, my rav holds this way, and so I heard first hand besheim R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven – the sons of R’ Moshe. And I posted this more than once on the thread, so you must not have been paying attention.
qa-
The way to become a baal nefesh is not to keep chumras. Chumras are things a ba’al nefesh does, not what make him up. Just like keeping shabbos doesn’t make you Jewish – once your Jewish keeping shabbos means something, chumras are at best meaningless to someone who is not a ba’al nefesh and at most very damaging. I refer you to Alei Shur, I think it’s a very good sefer and this concept is something he advocates very strongly.
CY is not a chumra. CS is a heter. CY is l’chatchila.
qa-
You keep repeating yourself. Maybe if you elaborate on where you’re coming from with that statement, you might convince me.
There is no such thing as being mattir a davar assur. If anyone ‘finds a heter’ what they are saying is that there is a loophole in the halacha that allows this, and therefore according to the letter of the law it is fine. Sometimes there is room for a chumra, and when one uses the term ‘l’chatchila you shouldn’t eat x’ what they mean is that it is mutar but there is room for a chumra. Just because something was thought to be the halacha doesn’t make it the default position, which automatically de-legitimizes anyone who figure out that the assumption is incorrect. Someone who ‘finds a heter’ is simply demonstrating that the previous assumptions were incorrect.
I’m not sure if you are just arguing about semantics, but if you are not then in essence what you seem to be saying is simply that the gezeira d’rabbanan of chalav akum applies to chalav stam. That is something R’ Moshe, and many rabbanim disagree with, and if they didn’t they wouldn’t have ‘found a heter’.
yitayningwut:
Reb Moshe’s statement regarding the HALACHA on this issue had been duly clarified.
qa is just clarifying his_OPINION_. HE holds that CY is “lechatchila” (whatever that means), CS is a “heter” (whatever that means).
dus is vus ehr tynet.
What you wrote in parentheses is what I am trying to figure out…
cherrybim posted;
hereorthere – “Unlike you, I did not ‘assume’ anything.”
Years ago EVERYONE, including Rav Gornish, accepted and used the “Big Five” hashgachos; so we have every right to assume that Rav Moshe did also, especially since his Yeshiva and his family did. ;;
My response;
Please tell me where I can find such a halacha in Shulchan Aurich?
Also please tell me where you have this info that he and his family for sure used all those hescherim.
Also are you saying it is impossible that any quality or people that he might have relied on, has/have changed since then, in those hescherim?
yitayningwut
Doesn’t Torah teach us that it has “70 faces” IE…Ways to Darshan it out?
I just thought of it in what could possibly be one of those ways.
Also that story was probably not about Cholov Yisroael, it might have been about learning Zohar about which there are many warnings of who should and who should not learn it.
Also it does not say that any Rav had paskened that if given a choice people should be machmir and he was following any Rav.
To go from that case to our situation, and apply that we are wrong to be machmir is something I think a Rav would have pasken.
I do not know what “b’shas hadchak” means.
I did not ask in those words from Rav Gronish if C’S’ was
“mutar gamur” but when he told me it wasn’t “the same” that did not seem to indicate it was “mutar gamer” (of course I’m guessing here, but it seems to me to be a logical guess).
You posted ; “and so I heard first hand besheim R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven – the sons of R’ Moshe. And I posted this more than once on the thread, so you must not have been paying attention.”
My response; First of all, before this post that I am responding to I never saw the term “mutar gamer” in this thread. If it was there, and I missed it I am sorry but I do not remember seeing it so I doubt you could have said it, many times.
Second; Are you saying that Rav Moshes sons paskened in his name that one was not allowed to be machmir in holding by Cholov Yisroeal and that they said so, in those words?
“CY is not a chumra. CS is a heter. CY is l’chatchila”
Is esentially, what Rav Gronish told me.
He did not use the word Chumra or heter, he said that CY was L’Chatchila and other relied on the psak by Rav Moshe which sounds like it was a heter, they relied on even though he did not use the word, heter.
But he clearly did use the word L’Chatchila in saying that C’Y’ most certainly was.
hereorthere – I would love to respond to the questions but quite frankly, I don’t understand them. I don’t know if it’s just me, or others too?
Cherrybim; To clarify;
You posted; “Years ago EVERYONE, including Rav Gornish, accepted and used the “Big Five” hashgachos”………..”especially since his Yeshiva and his family did”
#1 Where did you get this information from, how do you know it’s all true?
#2 What are these “Big Five” hashgachos”
#3 If the Rav once relied on them, those in charge of them were most likely not the same people overseeing those hasghachos now.
Perhaps the Rav does not rely on those who over see them now like he did with others he may have known personally and relied on his personal knowledge of their integrity.
Why can’t this or something similar be true?
You posted; “…so we have every right to assume that Rav Moshe did also, especially since his Yeshiva and his family did”
Where does Shulchan Aurich state clearly that we have the right to make these assumptions that you say, we “have the right”, to make?
hereorthere – “Rabbi Grones is a very well respected Rav in the New York Flatbush area. Last week he told me very clearly…”
You don’t have to believe me, since you are in contact with the Rav, you can ask him directly and report back.
The big 5 were already identified: OU; OK; Chaf K; CRC (Chicago); Star K
And you can add KAJ and Weismandl since they are in the same boat as the others according to the Rav.
heretofore-
I’m sorry I was unclear, let me clarify: I did not hear specifically from R’ Moshe’s sons that it is assur to be machmir. What they did say was to the effect of “there is no reason for you (not me personally, you as in stam a person) to be machmir” and “don’t worry about it, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it.” And they were speaking to choshuve bnei Torah who learn full-time in yeshiva. And I know firsthand that R’ Dovid consumes chalav stam on a regular basis, and when a friend of mine asked (with a bit of chutzpah) “Isn’t the Rosh Yeshiva a ba’al nefesh his father spoke of?” He replied half seriously “It’s not your business.” From my impression of his responses it seems to me that he is against being machmir in this area, but that is only my conjecture. However my personal rav, Harav Yitzchak Abadi, does happen to hold that way.
The story in the Gemara was not about the Zohar. The person was wearing black shoes as a sign of Aveilus for Yerushalayim, something he was not halachically required to do. Yes, there are 70 faces to Torah, but that is for expounding and drush, not for pshat, and I think the pshat is clearly indicative of my point, that in matters of issur v’heter one should not do more than what the halacha requires if he is not holding there.
I am not saying that you have to accept c.s. as l’chatchila or mutar gamur etc. On the contrary, if your rav disagrees you should follow him. I am just trying to inform you that there are those who disagree, and they are great people too, so you shouldn’t be dismayed when you see people being noheig differently than you.
yitayningwut, what about the idea that we do not pasken from the Gemarra?
Also (and I am just asking since I truly do not know) are Rav Moshes sons considered rabbonnim just as great as their father?
Besides that question it seems not understandable that they would expect people to go by what they personally do and yet when asked about it say ‘it’s not your business’.
It would seem like in this context it would be ‘our business’ if we are supposed to learn halachas and psakim from it.
Also I am simply tryingh to learn and understand not judge others by where they hold as long as what they hold is Al Pi Halacha.
If they follow halacha fine, if not I need to know not to learn from them or to be influenced to do the same.
heretofore –
We do pasken from the gemara. When what seems to be in the gemara seems to go against a halacha in Shulchan Aruch we will normally follow the halacha in S.A. because R’ Yosef Karo probably knew the gemara better than you and me, but regarding something that isn’t written in the S.A. we definitely pasken from the gemara. Most sheilos u’tshuvos seforim do that.
R’ Moshe’s sons R’ Dovid and R’ Reuven are widely regarded as great gedolim and poskim. Someone told a relative of mine that he asked R’ Elyashiv a serious halacha sheila that had to do with someone in America, and R’ Elyashiv asked if the guy had already asked R’ Dovid Feinstein. When the guy told him no, R’ Elyashiv told him to go ask R’ Dovid. From what I know, all the major poskim nowadays hold of him very strongly.
When he told the person ‘it’s not your business’ it was because being a ba’al nefesh is a personal thing and has to come from a deep understanding of oneself. He most probably held that no benefit would come to this person from knowing this piece of personal information, though as I said, he only said that half-seriously. I don’t think he needs to be excused for not wanting to discuss his private relationship with Hashem with any random person. As for the halacha that we need to know, he is clear about his position that there is no problem whatsoever with c.s.
I understand that you are just trying to learn, and I commend your efforts, and I’m doing my best to inform you what I know.
hereorthere, I don’t think anyone tries to compare R’ Moshe zt”l’s sons with him. However, they do know more detail about his teshuvos than most Rabbonim, and the reasoning he had behind them. Therefore, they are relied upon when explanation of one of his teshuvos is necessary.
Rav Moshe stated that any shaila to Rav Moshe that needed to be paskined could be asked of Rav Dovid, hainu hach, same thing
Yitayningwut; even if we pasken from the Gemarra when the S’A’ does not say anything about a certain thing, in the case of Cholov Yisroeal vs C’S’ it certainly has what to say so at least in that case it would seem to me that we would go by the S’A’ and not directly from the Gemarra.
What exactly is a Baal Nefesh?
heretofore-
Even if the SA has what to say, if the specific case is not in the SA one can only pasken through the gemara with the help of the rishonim. R’ Moshe and any other meikil in this area are understanding that this is the halacha based on what the gemara and the SA say. But anyway, I wasn’t talking about the halachic status of c.s. regarding paskening from the gemara, I was talking about the story which talks about chumras that one isn’t holding by. You won’t find in SA that he says you should keep an added chumra that you aren’t holding by, hence, the gemara is adequate proof that this is the way to be noheig until someone proves otherwise. As to whether c.s. is a chumra or halacha, we’ve already covered that at length and I’ve shared the views of my rabbanim and have seen and respect yours.
A ba’al nefesh is a person of exceptional yiras shamayim and discipline, literally a soul-master, and such a person knows when he reaches that level.
as an aside, besides for “gee a moron” who seems to have the most common sense here, does anyone that posted here even know how to navigate through a yad moshe? do u even know how many volumes r in the igros moshe? just like all jews know how many turim there r, every jew in 2010 should know how many i”m there r.
anonymous555, there were 7 volumes of the Igros Moshe put out by R’ Moshe himself. An 8th volume was put out after he passed away that was not prepared by him. Many people hold that the teshuvos written there need to be taken with a grain of salt, as they weren’t selected by R’ Moshe himself for publication.
In the shul where my parents daven, the only Yad Moshe they have is an English version. Yes, I do know how to use it. I don’t even know if there’s a Hebrew version (I assume there is), but I did know how to use the one the shul had, which was in English.
Yitayningwut so you are talking about chumras that someone isn’t holding by.
What about someone who has been holding by them for many years already?
Are you saying they should go “down” (for lack of a better word) from them?
anonymous555, what would you then have said to the R’ Abuchatzera who would never daven with someone, who had no beard?
He did not say he would daven only with big scholars who could quote Zohar and what beard means.
He would daven with the simplest most unknowledgeable Jew but he had to have a beard which obviously means he did not think that
it was wrong or foolish for “an am haaretz” to ‘have’ a beard.
Anonymous555 since you have said you think ‘gee a moron’ has so much common sense how about telling us the proof for his claim that being machmir in one area, automatically means being maikel, somewhere else?
heretofore-
I think you might have misunderstood me. By holding by them I did not mean he keeps them, what I was referring to was someone who is a big enough person that a chumra is the right thing for him, such a person is holding by keeping them, i.e. he is on the level. Someone ‘holding by’ keeping a certain chumra should keep it, if it is a proper chumra.
Yitayningwut so are you paskening that C’Y’ is “too high” a chumra for the average person who is not a big scholar, to hold by?
paskening that C’Y’ is “too high” a chumra for the average person who is not a big scholar, to hold by?
Why does someone need to pasken this? If it’s halacha, then by all means. If it’s merely a chumra, then let everyone decide for themselves whether or not to accept it upon themselves.
The Wolf
What makes you think everyone can decide for themself? This is a matter one should consult with their Rov to decide.
I agree with Trying my best. That is, unless someone is capable of judging the matter for themselves, which I think to qualify one would have to be very knowledgeable in Torah and very disciplined.
Cholov is cholov. If it comes from a cow, it is kosher. If it comes from a goat, it is kosher. Milk that is stipulated as Grade A milk can ONLY come from a cow, by the laws in this country. It is not MORE kosher because a Jew owned the cow and watched the cow get milked, even if it IS called cholov Yisroel. If we choose to drink cholov Yisroel, kol hakavod, but don’t put down those frum Yidden who choose to spend less money for better-tasting and longer fresh-tasting milk that is NOT cholov Yisroel. As long as it is 100% kosher, it is nobody else’s business. Have you any idea how many people claim to be cholov Yisroel, but eat Entenmann’s cake?
What’s the difference if the OU attests that certain milk is kosher or if Chaim Yankel (who we believe to say he saw the cow milked), claims it’s kosher? Once milk has hashgacha that verifies the milk’s kosher status, in my opinion, that milk is chalav yisroel.
- The topic ‘Cholov Stam’ is closed to new replies.