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Which is worse?
lakewhut:
Please clarify your question.Fraud that’s prohibited as a d’oraita is worse. Drabanan are equally bad. And if its not prohibited at all but fails the “yashrus” test, then fraud is better.
Chalav stam is worse
It depends on the community.
In the communities that prefer darker clothing & bigger hats Cholov Stam is worse.
For those that allow lighter clothing & smaller/no hats Fraud is worse.if you use expression “an ehrliche Yid” more often, you would stop asking these silly questions.
But the question may be a practical one: take a person whose parnosa is difficult and borderline questionable: he has to sell baskets to women like some Tanna; or your wife works whole day and your kids are in the care of people you don;t know; or you need to rely on non-Jewish welfare … you may reduce your halachik problems by drinking cheaper milk (comparing prices at the same level of nutrition and health).
“Drabanan are equally bad” ??????????
Assuming the OP means normal american milk, relying on R’ Moshe is just as bad as fraud????I’m not an expert on the topic of חלב because it’s not common in my diet.
I am unsure as to the question. I am jumping to the conclusion that the question is whether to convince someone to eat Cholov Stam or to lie to them and tell them that it is Cholov Yisroel.
The other way to interpret the question is just straight-up weird: Should I commit fraud or eat a piece of USDA American cheese?
Eat the cheese.
Rav Moshe Feinstein permitted Cholov Stam with the caveat that a Baal Nefesh could/should be Machmir. If you are at a point where you are considering committing fraud, I doubt you would be regarded as a Baal Nefesh.Minor anecdote, I knew someone who needed a business loan and was in talks with a (relatively) well-known well-to-do Chabad Shliach to borrow a large sum (7-8 figures). The Shliach told him to visit him and they would discuss further in person, and once you’re coming can you bring me this list of Cholov Yisroel products from New York (it was a several hundred dollar shopping list). Upon arriving at the Shliach’s home he gave him the products and attempted to continue the negotiations, but there wasn’t really any further movement.
It turns out, that he didn’t feel that the fellow’s business was secure enough to lend him that much money, but at least he could get some free Cholov Yisroel cheese out of it.
So that would be a case where someone chose to go with Cholov Yisroel and fraud.Fraud is always worse. End of discussion.
fake > Should I commit fraud or eat a piece of USDA American cheese?
We should also distinguish between Cheese and American cheese.
> where someone chose to go with Cholov Yisroel and fraud.
Although we are not allowed to believe this story, it is hilarious. Presuming the victim figured out the trick (say, he heard this happened to someone else) – could he substitute the stam cheese instead: as this was not baal nefesh, there is no good reason wasting perfectly good money. If the lender would suddenly agree to lend the money, he would take the cheese back immediately.
@ard I misunderstood the question. But if there’s a heter and only a baal nefesh should be machmir, then I think fraud is worse in all cases, since even non-baalei nefesh should have yashrus.
Sanhedrin 5 talks about stealing and then using for kedusha. Next time, include that page with the cheese.
Is everyone trolling or am I the only one so far who got lakewhut’s point…
He’s trying to point out that many frum people care more about chumras than isurim of the Torah.
Not a new point I guess, but thanks anyway.Ben Ish Hai on vayigash ponders, theoretically I think, about a difference between the thieves. A poor person stealing out of hunger should be dealt with chesed. A rich person who steals shows that this is his character. In parallel to Ben soreh vemoreh he might be judged based on his future tendency, namely, he eventually is going to steal so much that he will not be able to pay double fine, so it is better to make him a slave now, and he won’t want to steal because it will belong to his owner anyway. This is in relationship to dialog between Yoseg and Yehuda regarding the cup Benyomin allegedly stole.
I would expand this from “rich” to anyone who is able to earn livelihood but prefers stealing l. Same logic seems to apply.
The Pischei Teshuva in YD says that it if was accepted as a neder is worse being min Hatorah than derabonon which was accepted as a gezera. Reb Moshe ztz’l rules in America the government forbids non-kosher milk so there is no gezeira.
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