Cholov Akum

SJS, thanks for the kind words.

Zalman, When I spoke to Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a , he said it was his father’s pshat. He says he’s not arguing on his father. It’s bavust among the Lower East Siders that Reb Dovid Feinstein ate chalav stam. This wrinkle that the rebbetzin did was new to me, but I heard this story from the source’s husband. IE, it’s not a rumor in the velt, but an accurately traced source. For you it’s hearsay because you have no clue who I am. But I know the source, and for me it’s reliable. This was a person who wanted to keep cholov yisroel when he got married but he couldn’t because his wife kept mentioning this fact, and are they going to be frummer than Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L? As always, ask your local rav- I’m certainly not a rav. But those interested in being mevakesh the emes can find out the truth for themselves.

While one can not prove Halacha from a story, there is no contradiction between these stories. While Reb Moshe was very machmir for himself, he personally fed Cholov Stam to the rest of his family.

Will Hill, we’re not arguing. You’re asking lomdus, and I’m telling you metzius. I remember Reb Dovid Shlit”a asking me if I was a baal nefesh in a rhetorical tone, and this matches that. Perhaps you are a bigger baal nefesh than his family. I don’t know. I just know the metzius, and the metzius is that his family ate chalav stam. If you want me to speak to the woman who poured the chalav stam for Rebbetzin Feinstein, I’ll try to do so. I’ll also try to find you other witnesses from the Lower East Side. But you don’t die from a kashye, especially when you know the metzius.

Will Hill, my change came from speaking to the husband of the person in question. this isn’t a “friend of a friend” “mipi hashmua” story.

“A picture is worth a thousand words”, or in this case, actually observing, l’maise, the actions of Rav Moshe’s family, clearly indicates what his shitos were and answers any questions one may have in terms of how to interpret Rav Moshe’s written psak.

This appears in the back of Rav Binyomin Forst’s sefer,
פתחי הלכה, קיצור הלכות כשרות

תשובה מהגאון הגדול, פאר הדור
מרן מוהר”ר משה פיינשטיין זצ”ל

בענין חלב שבמדינותנו

(כפי אשר נדפס צילומו במדריך לכשרות נוא יארק אדר-ניסן תשל”ז).

בע”ה
ב’ דר”ח תמוז תשט”ז,

מע”כ ידידי המאו”ג מהר”ר אברהם וויינפעלד שליט”א
שלום וברכה כל הימים

הנה בדבר חלב הקאמפאניעס שבמדינותנו ודאי יש טעמים להתיר לומר שאינם בכלל האיסור שאמרו חז”ל וכדחזינן שהרבה מקילין בזה מפני הדוחק, בהרבה מקומות. אבל במקום שאפשר להשיג אף שעולה בקצת טרחה יותר ואף ביוקר מעט, חלב של ישראל, אין מן הראוי להקל בזה וצריכים להשיג חלב של ישראל

והנני ידידו
משה פיינשטיין

According to the above letter quoted from Rav Moshe, it is not proper to rely on the leniency of chalav stam if one can get Ch”Y milk with a little more effort and price.

So then, how do you define effort (Tircha) and price. Usually 1/6 is the amount for overcharge. In this case, the difference is usually more than 1/6. More like %50 to %100 (or more if OOT).

I don’t know, I guess it depends on the individual, but I doubt the difference is bigger now than when R’ Moshe Zt”l wrote this (late 70’s).

That letter was written for a specific case. A yeshiva, which had only bought C”Y milk for years, was thinking of switching. R’ Moshe urged them not to. This psak was meant ONLY for the yeshiva, not for the general public.

You’re mistaking it with the one printed in ????? ???.

That one is in ??”? ?’ ???? ?”?. In that ?????, written about yeshivas, he specifically mentions that for reasons of chinuch, they should be ????? despite the fact that over the course of the year it’s a large expense, and the financial situation in the yeshivas is tight.

This one was written to ?’ ????? ?????????; that one to ?’ ???? ??? ??????.

Feif Un,

It was originally printed publicly, in the (????? ?????? (??? ???? ???-???? ???”?. Rav Forst obviously feels that it is for the general public. And his reason (in the situation it refers to) applies universally. I’m not defining any individual’s ????, but he clearly is saying that for the most part, people should not be lenient.

Feif Un,

It certainly was R’ Moshe’s opinion; this was, as I mentioned, publicized years ago and R’ Forst merely reprinted it.

In all of the teshuvos in Igros, reference was made to the preference to be machmir, but this one is even clearer. The one in the (controversial) eighth chelek is also quite clear. I’ll copy the relevant passage from earlier in the thread (emphasis mine, parenthetical notes removed):

????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????, ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????

Daas Yochid: Was it publicized earlier at the request of R’ Moshe, or by someone else? I didn’t mean that R’ Moshe didn’t write the letter, I meant it wasn’t his opinion to publicize it.

It was printed in a kashrus guide of some sort, I doubt against his will. It is also wholly consistent with the teshuva in chelek ches, and the other teshuvos in Igros also imply as much. For example, the one we referred to earlier, ??”? ?’ ???? ?”? ,says at the end (of the cholov part) that people who live far away (he likely means from the NY area) need not be machmir because of the expense and tircha, clearly implying that without the expense and tircha, one should be machmir.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14676&st=&pgnum=44

BTW, I don’t agree with you assessment of R’ Forst; I think he’s in the middle, but that’s all subjective.

Apparently, it was printed in or slightly before ??? ???”?, plus I gave you a link to a teshuva from an earlier chelek. Here are the key words:

??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????

Loose translation with my emphasis:

If it’s very difficult to obtain CY, even individuals need not be stringent.

You can quibble with translating the words ??? ??? ?????? as “need not be stringent”, but it makes no sense to say that he meant it is assur to be machmir.

The evidence that his heter was for a “shaas had’chak” is overwhelming. In order to dispute it, you have to assert that the teshuva in ches is fraudulent, ignore the clear implications of the other teshuvos (especially the one I just translated), and somehow assume that R’ Moshe did not mean for the one which I originally posted to get out (which obviously R’ Forst disagrees with and you haven’t demonstrated any rov who holds otherwise). If that’s somehow the case, you have to assume that R’ Moshe’s reason for not wanting it to be publicized is that he didn’t really believe what he wrote!

The letter in chelek ches was written to a yeshiva, not for the general public.

It’s not written for a yeshiva, it’s written for a community.

As for a Rav who disagrees with R’ Forst, I already named one – R’ Dovid Feinstein.

You’re switching arguments here. You asserted that R’ Moshe did not intend for that teshuva to be printed, and your proof was that it was not in Igros. I asserted that the essential point was made in Igros as well, and that it is illogical to assume that R’ Moshe wished to “hide” his opinion that one should only rely on his heter b’shaas had’chak. I proved my view by pointing out that R’ Forst, who printed that teshuva, feels that R’ Moshe had no problem with it being publicized. Now you say that R’ Dovid disagrees with R’ Forst. Where is there any sort of evidence that R’ Dovid thinks that this particular teshuva is supposed to be a secret?

Daas Yochid: you misunderstood what I meant about R’ Dovid. R’ Forst feels that R’ Moshe’s opinion was that you should not drink cholov hacompanies unless it was the only thing available. R’ Dovid disagrees, as he eats and drinks it on a regular basis, based on his father’s opinion.

MDG,

If you read through my posts, you’ll find that I demonstrated that it’s obvious even in the teshuvos in Igros that R’ Moshe meant for the p’sak to be applied b’shaas had’chak.

I am familiar with R’ Forst, and I highly value his opinion (which might be a chutzpah for me to say, but in context of people who don’t know him, I hope it’s ok).

Daas Yochid,

Can you find me in the Igros Moshe (the teshuvot that he approved and published during his life) where R’ Moshe says that the p’sak is to be applied b’shaas had’chak ?

MDG,

I assume you mean ?????? from ??? ? and I understand why, but I don’t think anyone had an agenda on this.

There is also a clear ???? in ??”? ?’ ???? ?”?. The key words are:

??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????

This clearly implies that if it is not ??? ??? ????? one should be ?????.

Chalav Akum.

Akum? You racists. You think all goyim worship stars?

LOL

Daas Yochid,

After re-reading that teshuva, I see what you quoted above, but it seems to me that the context is concerning a Yeshiva and not the average person. When R’ Moshe says “??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??????” which Yechidim is he talking about?

It seems to me that he is talking about people that want to be machmir on themselves. He is saying that even then they have don’t have to be strict with themselves.

I don’t see anywhere in this teshuva that R’ Moshe reconsiders or contradicts what he says in his earlier teshuvot, where he says that a ba’al nefesh should be machmir. In fact, one could say that the Yechidim in the Y”D Chalek 5 are the baalei nefesh in Y”D Chalek 2. So that it comes out (according to this understanding) that R’ Moshe is saying that even a baal nefesh, who lives way out of town, may rely on the chalav companies.

Daas Yochid,

I also don’t see the teshuva from the ????? ?????? to be immaterial, but I can’t say that it was R’ Moshe’s intended public psak.

I see how you are leaning pshat in the teshuva in the Igrod Y”D 5. I think that it would take a real buki to determine who those “Yechidim” are. Until then, Teiku.

And until the next shipment of C”Y comes to my far OOT community, I’m drinking soy milk.

I don’t think I would call me that.

BUT, I am concerned about people violating their nedarim. From what I understand, a broken vow carries with it a strict punishment from above. Rav Moshe said that if one specifically chooses Chalav Yisrael over Chalav companies three times, then that creates a Neder, vow, through their actions.

I’d rather have people drink Chalav Companies w/o breaking vows, than try Chalav Yisrael for a short while and violate a neder many times.

I guess my point is this: If you want to try C”Y then start by saying Bli Neder. Otherwise don’t start, or know what you are committing to and stick to it (or be matir neder).

mdg, dy- tell me what u think. i decided to eat CY when i was younger even though my family doesnt. anyways, recently, i had just gotten separated from my husband,i was in a very sad place and i had barely eaten. One morning, before i left to work my father quickly cooked me some eggs and gave it to me in an ouD english muffin. i thought it was so adorable and sweet i almost started crying (that was the state i was in) but i realized it was ouD n i couldnt eat it. aaanywaz later in the day i was hungry , i had no other food, and i said- it was made with so much love! im eating it! i usually never “justify” things but at that point i just needed to be gentle with myself. reading your posts, i realize nedarim arent simple.. So my question is- was that completely wrong? what should i do about it?

thanx. 🙂 (hey- its working!)