- This topic has 305 replies, 62 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
>>R’ Belsky is a posek for the kashrus division of the OU. Do you think for one second that if he held it was a problem he’d allow a hechsher to be put on cholov stam items? Obviously, it’s not an issue, and believe me, R’ Belsky knows way more about this than you do. <<
Rather than using lumdishe thinking. Go ask R’ Belsky what he holds, what we should do and whether he eats chalav stam.
>>Have you looked at the teshuvos inside?<<
Yes I have, and on fact, I have it open in front of me. (Yoreh Deah, chelek Alef, siman 47). At the end of the teshuva (Personally, I do not stop when I see what I want to see) R’ Moshe says:
“However, for ‘ba’alei nefesh’ ideally one should be stringent just like [R’ Moshe was] stringent. For one who wants to be lenient, he can do so without fear of violating any prohibitions”
So, what is the difficulty in saying go ask R’ Belsky a) What he personally does, and b)what he advises you to do.
Perhaps he would say you should be a ba’al nefesh, someone who cares about their neshoma.
JayMatt19: What R’ Belsky holds for himself is not necessarily what the halachah is. As I said, if he gives a hechsher, it’s kosher. If you think R’ Moshe’s heter was only for b’shas hadchak, why does R’ Dovid eat cholov stam?
>>R’ Belsky is a posek for the kashrus division of the OU. Do you think for one second that if he held it was a problem he’d allow a hechsher to be put on cholov stam items?<<
>>What R’ Belsky holds for himself is not necessarily what the halachah is. As I said, if he gives a hechsher, it’s kosher<<
I believe the OUs policy vis-a-vis Chalav Stam was applied long before R’ Belsky joined the organization. Personally I feel whether or not he would eat it would be a better barometer. (Additionally, you could ask R’ Belsky for a psak for yourself, unless of course you are not planning on following what he says should his reply not be to your liking)
Rav Belsky would have changed the policy if he disapproved. Most likely Rav Belsky is machmir for himself, doesn’t necessarily mean everyone must.
Any Roc can be machmir on himself, while holding the position that a given item is kosher for everyone else. My rov ZT”L did not eat MANY items that he said were perfectly muttar. It was his personal derech, but he would never impose his personal preferences on anyone else. The only time he ever did so, was when we asked him b’feirush if he would eat in a certain restaurant, and he said no, and that it was not k’dai for a frum yid to eat there, even though the food was kosher. His reasoning had to do with something unrelated to the kashrus of the food, and we understood his rationale, and followed it.
Agreed oomis. My rav mattirs the local eiruv but will not carry in it himself. He tells bnei torah not to carry in it, but has no problem if the baalei batim do.
Jothar, The Baalei Batim are not Bnei Torah in your town?
My thoughts on the eiruv are that every town should have one. Even if there are Jews in that town who are mechallelai Shabbos, at least in ONE way they will not be.
There is nothing which unites a community more than an eruv. and there is nothing which divided a community more than an eruv
Joseph, there are madreigos in bnei torah. there are “chaverim” -type Bnei Torah and there are tzurvei merabbanan- type Bnei Torah. This is a pashut chiluk, and I’m disappointed that you didn’t comprehend this. Surely not everyone in your area is a tzurva meirabanan, even if they are Bnei Torah.
Just got this from my kosherquest monthly email:
___________________________________
If they could import this stuff, you’d see a lot more chalav yisroel eaters.
Hey Joseph,
If you sponsor my kids yeshiva tuition (at a local school in my area), I’ll switch over to chalav yisrael. Do we have a deal?
There’s more of an Inyun to eat Yoshon then Cholov Yisroel.
What’s wrong with Cholov Stam? Can we trust the Goyim? Obviously if Rav Moshe even thought that there was a doubt then he wouldn’t have said it was ok. He was machmir, just like if a Rav says that you could hold by an Eiruv and he doesn’t.
220ld: Read the discussion in the thread. Reb Moshe said you can only eat cholov stam in a dire emergency.
No, ujm, some people here claim that R’ Moshe’s letter applies to all cases. Yet, no major Rav now has ever said such a thing, even those involved in kashrus, like R’ Belsky. R’ Dovid Feinstein has publicly stated that his father meant cholov stam is always ok. But wait, I forget – the people here know better. They’ll always listen to the Gedolim – when it suits their purpose.
feif, Your mistaken. Read what Reb Moshe wrote. He wrote it specifically in two places that its bshas hadchak. Call Reb Belsky if your still unconvinced. OU gives the OUD hechsher for emergency situations and for people not on a level to be fully observant.
ujm: you didn’t read what Reb Moshe (or I) wrote that bshaas hadchack was only said in specific situations but generally it is mutar l’chatchila. I’ve spoken to Rav Belsky about this, and the OU considers cholov stam mutar l’chatchila but tries to accommodate those who are machmir when possible such as Ben & Jerry’s and some other circumstances.
PM: You are mistaken. 1) The teshuva in the Igros Moshe is not limited to Yeshiva’s, despite that the shaila happened to originate from a Yeshiva. You seem to have misinterperted the teshuva. 2) Even if you don’t accept that premise (#1), if you read Reb Moshe’s other teshuva, printed in Hilchos Kashrus, there it is quite clear bshas hadchak refers to all situations. Can you read up that teshuva and report back your interpertation of it? Thanks.
ujm: Why do you need PM’s interpretation when you already have the interpretation of R’ Belsky and R’ Dovid Feinstein? Is their word not good enough for you? For myself, I’ll follow their psak. If you don’t want to, that’s fine. Just don’t try and make it seem like I’m doing something wrong.
ujm: Curious; are you makpid that dairy products which can only be made from cow’s milk, such as butter, also be made from special chalav yisrael milk; or is Breakstones butter ok by you?
Powdered milk may be a different shaila than cholov stam.
Who could believe hearsay that their mothers brothers bubbas husband personally witnessed Hershy bars in Reb Moshe’s fridge or their best friends wife’s mother personally poured cholov stam milk in Reb Dovid’s mouth? You either have a mekor or you don’t.
There is no “interpretations”. Reb Moshe twice wrote bshas hadchak, and Reb Moshe meant what he wrote.
In the 1950’s, 1960’s and early 70’s, Yeshivos out of New York City did not provide Cholov Yisrael milk. So I guess the Roshei Yeshiva of yesteryear, the real g’dolim, considered it a Shas Had’chak, whatever that means.
Hill of beans, I posted the actual mekor from Reb Dovid earlier- a sefer Yad Dodi from one of his talmidim. It’s not hearsay.
ujm: Thank you for prodding me to look up the sources again and not rely on my memory. I must take back what I wrote previously regarding Reb Moshe’s teshuva to the Yeshiva. In fact he never uses the phrase “b’shas hadchak” in the entire siman. What he does write is that one who is a “baal nefesh” should try to be machmir, a Yeshiva should be machmir, and one who lives out of town where it is difficult to come by CY SHOULD NOT BE MACHMIR. He does not even say “NEED NOT BE MACHMIR” he writes “SHOULD NOT”.
I’m afraid I do not have access to Rav Forst’s sefer, but I understand that it is identical to the teshuva in IM8 where he writes that one who lives in a city with a minhag to be machmir should not change his minhag without a shaas hadchak if it risks undermining the financial stability of the local CY producer. Since all 4 teshuvos printed in IM clearly consider it a chumra, I see no reason to suspect that Rav Forst found a letter to the contrary. If I see it I am happy to reconsider.
Will: IM8 is the same as YD5, there he uses shaas hadchak in the situation I specified. YD2:35 is the teshuva about yeshivos, and there he does not use those words at all.
Will: I just looked up the OU Daf Kashrus. What they have there is the teshuva later printed in IM8/YD5, whatever you want to call it. It clearly was written to a specific city under very specific circumstances as I have mentioned repeatedly.
PM: Since you have Reb Moshe’s teshuva that mentions bshas hadchak, could you be kind enough to post a full and faithful verbatim English translation of that teshuva so we can all determine for ourselves what Reb Moshe is saying?
PM – If you read the teshuvas carefully, you’ll find that YD 2:35 its clear from the shaila/teshuva that it involves a bshas hadchak situation, so the teshuva was specific to that shaila. In IM8/YD5, from the context, it is a more general teshuva stating cholov stam should only be used bshas hadchak.
Hill of Beans, can you please ask Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit”a how he can misinterpret such an obvious teshuva?
Jothar, you (who are pro-cholov stam) earlier in this thread was moida that you interpret Reb Moshe’s poshut pshat as allowing it only bshas hadchak, and said many of Reb Moshe’s talmidim also say Reb Moshe only held as such.
Joseph, agreed 100%. But let’s not pretend Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a doesn’t exist. Facts are facts.
ujm: I don’t know how you could read IM8/YD5 as a general teshuva. Ho specifically writes it to a specific city with a minhag to be machmir and a company on the verge of insolvency.
Joseph: the issue isn’t “pro-cholov stam” or not. I personally am machmir on CY and even butter and powdered milk and recommend that others should also be machmir. The issue is that it is a very worthwhile chumra and not a halachic obligation according to Reb Moshe.
CY is not a chumrah, it is a l’chatchilah, and there is a big difference. Everyone should be makpid on cholov yisroel halachicly, even according to Rav Moshe.
zalman: chalav yisroel is not a lechatchila you can have as much cholov stam as you want it is only a problem if you have milk that is not from a cow. chalav yisroel is only to make sure you dont have milk that didnt come from a cow.
(im not a rabbi this is just my thoughts on the matter)
Does any CY Company make Lactose Free MILK for those who are Lactose Intolerant?
yankdownunder wouldnt that be like soymilk or rice milk?
kapusta- No I am talking about a CY Company adding a special Culture called Acidopholous (which is added to Yogurt) so Lactose Intolerant People can enjoy drinking Milk. The Culture helps people who are Lactose Intolerant digest Milk. This would help make a Cy Company more profitable by introducing anther Market namely people who have Digestive Problems drinking Milk. Rice, Soy, Almond, Oat, Hemp… Drinks are all made from a non dairy source. So they are not part of the Parsha of Cholav Akum and Cholov Stam.
yankdownunder, Yes. Golden Flow (and I believe New Square as well.)
aussie, CY is not a chumrah, it is a l’chatchilah, and there is a big difference between the two. This is even according to Rav Moshe.
Zalman: look in the teshuvos from Reb Moshe, as we have been discussing the past couple of days, and you will see that you are mistaken. Reb Moshe clearly writes in numerous places that it is a chumra.
??”? ????? ??? ??? ??”? ? ???? ?
????? ?????? ???? ?????
??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???”? ??? ???????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??”?, ???? ????? ???? (????????) ???? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?????, ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????, ?????? ????? ????? (????) ???? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????. ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???, ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????, ?? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????.
????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????, ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? (??? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??”? ??????? ???? ?????????, ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ???????, ???? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???, ???? ??? ??????, ???’ ?????? ??”? ?”? ??’ ?”?, ?”?, ?”? – ?? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ?????, ????? ?”?. ??? ???”? ?”? ??’ ?”?, ?”?, ?”? ?”? ??? ????, ????? ?”?, ????”? ?”? ???? ?”?) ??? ?? ???? ???? (????? ?? ??????? ??”? ??? ??? ??”? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???; ???”? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???”?, ??? ????? ?”?, ?”? ??”? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?????, ????”? ?”? ???? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??????, ?? ???? ?????? ????, ????? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ?????, ???? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????????, ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??’ ???????, ???????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ?????, ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????, ?? ???????, ??? ??? ??????; ????”? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ??? ??”? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???????; ???’ ??? ??????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???, ???? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??????), ?? ?? ?? ???????? ???? ????? ????? ??????, ??? ????? ???? ???.
????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ????, ??? ?? ????? ????? ????, ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? (???”? ?”? ??’ ?”? ??? ??? ??”? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?’ ?????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ?????, ??”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?”?. ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ????, ???? ?? ??????? ????? ????? ????, ?? ????? ?? ??????? ????????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????).
I thought I had everything clear- Reb Moshe ZT”L says only eat chalav stam in a shas hadchak, Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a is more meikel than the other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L, and Reb Moshe ZT”L implied more like the other talmidim, if you look at the printed teshuvos. Well I spoke to my source who said his wife poured chalav stam for Reb Dovid. Turns out she poured chalav stam for REBBETZIN FEINSTEIN A”H, ie Reb Moshe ZT”L’s wife. Obviously, as Hill will point out, this is hearsay- eid mipi eid mipi eidus isha, so kabdeihu vechashdeihu. But as for myself, it seems Reb Dovid Shlit”a may be right after all. My mind is spinning, and not just because my daughter kept me up last night…
Jothar: sorry for the confusion. Seems Reb Dovid is right about his father’s psak, just read the teshuvos. Also, a friend of mine who is Reb Dovid’s nephew says his uncle (Reb Dovid) told him that Reb Moshe only fed his son (Reb Dovid) Cholov Stam, including ice cream. Reb Moshe was machmir on himself but not his family, even though there is unlikely to be any shaas hadchak on ice cream. However, I wonder why he didn’t consider his son a baal nefesh.
Jothar, I really appreciate you coming to the CR. Its refreshing to see someone admit that he might not always be right and could be wrong (I think plenty of us, myself included, could learn that lesson better). You also post clear, level-headed posts! I don’t always agree with you, but that is irrelevant!
Jothar,
Whilst I agree with your that a plain reading of the Igros Moshe shows Reb Moshe held cholov stam permissible bshas hadchak, I must say I’ve heard so many different versions of that story of someone in Reb Moshe’s family purportedly eating cholov stam, and on the other hand stories of Reb Moshe throwing up having found out something he ate was cholov stam… that, like you say, this is all hearsay possibly by people seeing what they thought/want to see.
You did say earlier you don’t know if Reb Dovid’s shitta is his own, or his interpretation of Reb Moshe’s.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.