Cholov Akum

Jothar, who says Reb Dovid a) holds like Reb Moshe (sometimes he argues on his father) b) holds it is muttar anytime other than bshas hadchak (for whatever reason he may have considered the times he permitted it to be bshas hadchak – unless he clearly stated otherwise you cannot assume, even if you fail to understand the possible reasoning) c) what is the mekor for Reb Dovid’s position (other than a possible misunderstanding by yourself)?

yossiea, read The Big One. He provided the mekors. The Igros Moshe is very clear. And Reb Moshe wrote a subsequent letter (to Rabbi Weinfeld in Monsey, printed with Reb Moshe’s handwriting and signature in the back of “Hilchos Kashrus” by Rabbi Forst) saying the heter was only bshas hadchak.

I agree the Igros Moshe seems clear that it’s a shas hadchak. The quote of Reb Dovid’s position came from Rabbi Frankel of the Aguda of 5 towns. The wife of one of my frieds is from the Lower East Side, and personally poured chalav stam for Reb Dovid. Every so often it pays to take an F train to the first stop in Manhattan, East Broadway, and speak to him yourself. I once did that and asked him. I spoke to someone else who told me that “shas hadchak” refers to putting frum companies out of business. It could be Reb Dovid is arguing on his father, but when I asked him he said that’s what the teshuva meant or something like that. Being that it shtims with what Rabbi Frankel said, I’m willing to accept it. But there is no argument that the pashut pshat reading of Reb Moshe ZT”L is like Big One.

As for the air conditioner timers, my rav and poseik said that we should only use timers for lights and air conditioners. I have to double check, but I believe that air conditioners are allowed because of extreme discomfort, and light are different for another reason which I forget offhand. Otherwise, we listen to Reb Moshe ZT”L. I will try to find out more exactly why these 2.

Rav Shachter doesn’t publicize his views on this because “tov sheyihyu shogegin” and others argue on him anyway, but he says that nowadays, most dairy cows are treif, even without the “displaced abomasum” cows, and when all the milk is mixed togather, there is no biltul berov, and definitely not bitul beshishim. Rabbi Belsky argues, and on this basis I drink milk. As for why today’s cows are worse than they were historically, it’s only in the last 100 years or so that people bred specialty cows. It used to be that cows needed to be hardy or they wouldn’t survive. Today we breed cows for soft meat (Angus, Kobe, etc) or for dairy production (Holstein etc). Furthermore, today’s cows are in stressful environments to make mass production possible. The zebu cows are much hardier than our European cows. their meat is also like shoe leather, which is why chicken and geese used to rank higher than cow meat on the “chashivus” totem pole.

We have more pressing issues than this.

A focus on Shemiras HaLashon (prohibitions against derogatory speech), for example can yield improvements in Biblical issues and actually improve unity among us.

I believe that the Torah leadership is aware of all the sources The Big One brings, but has decided to focus on other issues.

jphone, I have had better experiance with Golden Flow than other brands. Maybe give it a shot. I find rarely, if ever, does it spoil. Also, your taaina seems to be more of a cost issue (you need to replace wasted product, hence additional cost.) I don’t know that is a “dire emergency”.

Will Hill, when I spoke to Rav Dovid Feinstein after reading the Igros Moshe inside, he implied that he IS fitting into the teshuva of his father. Other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L clearly argue. Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns agrees with me, as posted here earlier from another website. The MTJ payphone#, for those who don’t have it, is (212) 962-9296. I don’t know Rabbi Frankel’s number, the one who wrote the Yad Dodi, but I’m sure it’s in the phone book.

The recommendation in my yeshiva was that one should keep cholov yisroel when he got married. I tried to follow it, but my milk sensitivity meant that I just couldn’t stomach the stuff- it was almost always spoiled, or about to be spoiled, and chamira sakanta meissura. My guf precluded me from being a baal nefesh. Clearly, those who want to be machmir have a solid basis for doing so. And based on Reb Dovid’s interpretation of his father’s Teshuva (Reb Dovid being on the Moetzes and all), those who want to be meikel, yesh al mi lismoch. As always, ask your rav and poseik- I’m a balabos, and real poskim don’t hang out on the Internet anyway.

Will, Reb Dovid holds chalav stam is muttar meikkar hadin. It’s good to be machmir, but not “only be meikel beshas hadchak”. I posted the quote arlier. It was copied and pasted off another website. The written mekor is the kuntres yad dodi by Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of the 5 Towns. He too is available to call. He clearly is more meikel than the teshuva of Reb Moshe ZT”L suggests. The quote of the translation I lifted off another wbsite says there’s no problem keeping cholov yisroel when convenient. furthermore, candy bars usually use powdered milk, which the minhag has been to be meikel. Other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”l agree with the traditional reading, the way you began this thread.

Don’t know about ice cream, but the Reb dovid quote lifted shamelessly off another website by me clearly says chalav stam is muttar midina. Again, other talmidim of Reb Moshe ZT”L argue. I’m not sure how Reb dovid reads the words shas hadchak. I asked him once, and he said something along the lines of “that’s what it means”. It’s been many long years, but I encourage you to call up and get clarity- I’m not the “mara deshmatza”. Based on Reb Dovid’s well-known dislike of long explanations, your best bet is to call Rabbi Frankel of the Agudah of 5 towns, not Reb Dovid- Rabbi Frankel can give you a longer explanation. His name was attached to the aformentioned halacha post I swiped from another website. I heard that shas hadchak meant that we need to keep the frum companies in business, but that’s unconfirmed. I am very interested to hear the results of your conversation.

Of course, according to some poskim, NOBODY is really drinking cholov yisroel, as it’s not watched by a Jew the whole time. So you’re spending more money to get a more spoiled product which may not even have any maalos over a good half gallon of Skinny Cow Special Request. It’s almost the same ripoff as those ” bishul yisroel sticker slapped on a regular product” deals, where they are relying on a light bulb for bishul yisroel, which many poskim don’t hold of. So you’re spending a huge premium to get a product that may not have any maalos over the regular product!

The OU is talking about using video monitors to monitor dairy farms. This would mean that ALL milk can be cholov yisroel at a low cost, and we can all drink fresh, long-lasting cholov yisroel milk at a good price. I am eagerly awaiting that day.

jphone,

When I lived in an out-of-town community, c”y milk was trucked in to the local chain supermarket every two weeks. The milk was brought it from a city several hours away in the central US. Although some people chose to freeze the milk to help it last longer, not everyone did so. During the brief time that we bought this milk, we did not freeze it, and yet it did not spoile before the next delivery. (Because c”y milk was so expensive–about double the price of cholov stam–we used powdered c”y milk for about a year before switching to cholov stam). The milk was bottled in plastic containers.

Nevertheless, the c”y I used to buy here in my NYC area community, where milk deliveries are much more frequent, spoiled quickly, whether I bought it at a heimishe store or chain supermarket. Based on my experiences, I must conclude that the spoilage problems with c”y are not due to the containers or the handling in the store, but maybe to storage/ refrigeration problems earlier in the process.

The Rosh in Sukka 3:14 discusses the issue of heter b’shaas hadchak as opposed to other times very clearly. K’dai to see.

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If you take a look at the S”A Orach Chayim, Siman 58, Seif 4, the Mechaber paskens that if an individual who is not an “anoos” went ahead and leined krias shema after alos and before neitz, that person is yoitzeh bediavad.

The MB in seif katan 19 states that if the person who is in a situation of “sha’as hadchak” needs to lein k”s, even on a consistent basis, then it is permitted for him to act accordingly, because what else can he (i.e. no alternative). However, a person who relies of this leniency and is not in a position of “sha’as hadchak” than he may be yoitzeh bdiavad on occasion but if he relies on it consistently, than he is no even yoitzeh bdiavad.

Everyone seems to have different experiences with their c”y, even in the same city in terms of spoilage. Some of us are zoche to the nes of it not spoiling, some of us not; just like some of us have their Shabbos candles stay lit 168 hours, others only for 4 hours.

Back to reality: For those used to eating and snacking dairy products, being fully Makpid on Cholov Yisroel is a major Avodah of self improvement. And as I have heard from those with real teaching and guidance responsibility, especially close to Yom Kippur, one has to prioritize the areas he or she will work on. For most of us, me included working on what comes out of the mouth is more important.

Hill of Beans:

2 points:

1: CV I would disregard a psak from Rov gedolim! I would rather people throw out their TVs and drink Chalov Stam then Vice versa. The question is what to work on, and this is lower down than stuff like Lashon Hara and saying Kriyas Shema Bezmano.

2: Rav Bick, the Mezebusher Rav, (grandfather of the current rav?) moved from Mezebush to NY in 1925 (I think).

aryehm: It says in the Igros Moshe, as well as a letter Reb Moshe signed that is published elsewhere, that the heter for cholov stam is only bshas hadchak. (For a non-baal nefesh; Reb Moshe wrote that a baal nefesh doesn’t use the heter even bshas hadchak.) “The Big One” posted the mekoros in the IM as well as the other letter, earlier in this thread. One talmid muvhak said Reb Moshe threw up when he was told what he ate was cholov stam; another claims he witnessed cholov stam in the fridge/fed to family members. Anecdotes of Reb Moshe (or anyone for that matter), however reliable or otherwise, don’t negate a psak din. You need a mekor.

gavra_at_work: I understand you are referring to people who are not yet on the observance level, that they need to work on other areas first e.g. getting rid of the shmutz tube, before working on other areas. I hear you. I don’t think anyone on the thread disagrees with that. We’re talking about people who mistakenly think that cholov stam is 100% okay anytime, including non-bshas hadchak, and are able to do the right thing.

There are two teshuvos from Reb Moshe where he writes that it is only allowed “bsha’as hadchak”. One was written to a Yeshiva where he clearly explains that he is being machmir because it is the responsibility of a Yeshiva to teach self-sacrifice for chumros. The other was written to a city where the minhag for many years had been to be machmir, and because many people dropped the minhag the local Cholov Yisroel dairy was in danger of closing. In the teshuvos where he addresses the general concept he only writes that a “ba’al nefesh” should be machmir, which anyone knowledgeable Halacha knows means something totally different than mutar only “bsha’as hadchak”.

I think we have milked the cow dry.

I dont have alot of input on this. I’m lactose intolerant. 😀

David S.: you poor thing!!!! on behalf of the CR Board & the CR Gang, i welcome ya to the CR!!! join the fun!!!!

The cow is now a goses (moribund).

Most people in the world are lactose intolerant. Lactose tolerance is a rarity. In the 70’s, the US sent cans of powdered milk to Africa. the Africans who drank it got terrible diarrhea, and many died.

I wanted to add to my previous post that people don’t die from lactose intolerance, because it isn’t an allergy. While nearly all babies are lactose tolerant, most adults are not (although lactose tolerance in adults is more common in cultures where there is milk available for adults to drink); if lactose intolerance were fatal, that likely wouldn’t be the case.

Jothar,

Thanks for that source. It’s possible that some people died after drinking milk, but it’s very unlikely that “many” people died due to lactose intolerance, unless they were already near death due to famine. It’s also possible that some succumbed to the germs in the water used to reconstitute the milk from powder form. The wikipedia article you quoted did not mention any deaths attributable to lactose intolerance, and indeed the scientific consensus is that lactose intolerance can cause great discomfort but not death.

qwertyuiop: you poor thing too!!!! my condolences!!!!!!!!!

gavra_at_work, thanks for telling me, but I already heard about them, but I decided not to use them. Hashem gave me lactose intolerance because I was over eating milk and dairy products, and I decided to live with what Hashem gave me and not try to be able to indulge again through Lactaid pills. Thanks though.

Thanks, David

Feif Un,

Good luck trying to get that through.