Cholov Akum

BS”D

Awww..never mind CY and CS (which of course is very important to me but you have who to rely on if you eat CS and for that matter chocolate probably contains only CS powdered milk which apparently only we Chassidim consider CY) – you just don’t know what good chocolate is! Milk Munch does NOT qualify LOL – if it is what I think it is, the last time I had a piece is when someone offered it to me and I took it so as not to offend them because they were nice enough to bring enough over to be able to offer it to guests. To put it mildly, I did not want a second one even when offered LOL.

However, it is about time that someone once again breaks the CY cartel and produces good CY at a major plant the way Goldman’s did.

The sad demise of Ahava shows that the community just can’t support a decent (but not particularly high quality, even if it was healthier) CY dairy because such a dairy cannot achieve the proper economies of scale and it is beholden to moisdos and groceries which cannot always afford to pay on time.

What we need is a CY line that is similar in price to CS and is distributed to the major outlets. If CY can be sold as a premium quality product that just happens to be CY and is no more than 5-10 cents a half gallon more than CS (and if gallons are available for big families outside the city who have more room and bigger fridges), it will be ideal.

That will radically change the CY situation and make it easier for more and more people to keep CY. Problem is that it has to be done outside the framework of the haimishe firms and stores; the product must be available to the general public as well.

BS”D

Well – Entenmanns is apparently made with CS powder so you are off the hook on that one according to some very valid opinions.

Milky Way? You are surrounded by all that delicious Syrian food and you consider Milky Way EDIBLE??? Feed that to stray cats in the UK and you will land 60 days as a not very honored guest of Her Majesty the Queen.

Hershey’s: here are the ingredients: “Chocolate: Hardly any.” An actual Hershey’s chocolate bar only contains between 4% and 10 % chocolate. The rest of it is sugars, emulsifiers, milk solids, and other fillers.

From the label: Ingredients: SUGAR, CHOCOLATE, COCOA BUTTER, COCOA PROCESSED WITH ALKALI, MILK FAT, LACTOSE, SOY LECITHIN, PGPR, VANILLIN, ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR, AND MILK.

(taken from WikiAnswers) NO COMMENT LOL!

Herr’s – you mean the sour creme and onion ones?

Otherwise the inyan is bishul Yisroel; some people including some very good friends of mine whose kashrus I trust more than my own eat non Bishul Yisroel potato chips b/c potato chips are not roui leshulchan melochim. I don’t want them anyway because most are cooked in oil that makes WD-40 seem healthy so I am machmir LOL – so machmir I don’t eat the bishul yisroel ones here in Ukraine or in the US!

Again, if potato chips of any description are food, I am a polar bear.

Seriously, in your case you’ll be better off in many ways if you give up CS junk food for health reasons! I’d have a hard time convincing you to give up Haagen-Dasz or Ben and Jerry’s but that junk food you mention is about as healthy as breathing car exhaust :(.

Then you can ease into CY as I did; give up the hardest thing last. And if you really want CY junk you can find it LOL; Blooms, Paskesz and Elite-Megadim among others are your friends :).

Itzik, I have had CY Swiss chocolate and I have had Hersheys. I prefer Hersheys.

BS”D

Oy – this probably shows just how successful “food scientists” have been in using cheap, unhealthy ingredients to come up with something that is more tasty but of infinitely lower quality than its original natural predecessor. (in the same way that orange drink, which should have the i and n replaced with the fifth and third letters of the alphabet, tastes better than orange juice).

I haven’t had Hershey’s since I was a child and looking at those ingredients even if it were C”Y the only thing I would do with it is hmmmm…leave it firmly on the shelf.

Interesting re powdered CY – thanks to all who mentioned it as I have seen hechsherim saying “for those who consume powdered chalav nochri” in E”Y and I always wondered why they mentioned powder. As for butter, one kosher list in this part of the world that mentions C”S products as an aside recommends but does not endorse only one very reliable upscale brand of butter from a country with the strictest standards – now I understand why.

NOBODY is going to get me to switch to CY (maybe in afew years), because i love CS.$

BS”D

Ah, yes – cheese curls. Hmmm…going to the Home Depot site…clicking on rat bait…and finding something that looks suspiciously similar to cheese curls. Checking the ingredients on cheese curls and seeing that PETA would be all over you if you tried to use cheese curls to rid yourself of rats!

(You don’t like Bamba? Similar texture, different flavor and conveniently pareve).

Those Golden Fluffs sound suspiciously similar to something marketed by a firm in Lakewood that my rav in NYC once bought for an event, but these are pareve bishul yisroel.

Going back to the first post – when was the famous psak of Rav Moishe Feinstein ZTL issued and how many times was it restated? I don’t hold by it (though I understand and accept the circumstances and reasoning behind it) but I believe it is more recent or was restated more recently than the original poster indicated. Then again, while I always thought organized, commercial CY in the US goes back to the late 1950’s, very little CY was available even into the 60’s and early 70’s according to what even some Chassidim have told me.

And itzik I was talking about the lakewood brand golden fluff

And itzik I was talking about the lakewood brand golden fluff

BS”D

Which is pas yisroel, bishul yisroel and pareve :). Not that it also can’t be used for killing rats LOL. In fact according to the Darchei Kareis you cannot feed rats that which you do not eat yourself because they may be gilgulim of reshoim and you are depriving them of the ability of doing tshuva by feeding them that which may be metamtem es halev ve’es ha’moach………………….(Purim IS coming!!!!)

Syrian- you did know that sephardim are much more stringent on Bishul Yisrael, right. I suggest you ask you LOR about that. Please don’t mention the Rabbi’s name though.

Without getting involved in the discussion, I just want to explain why CY milk costs so much. Most dairy farms utilize co-ops, i.e. a bunch of small farmers milking their own cows and selling the milk to the bottling, etc. company. This is much cheaper than having it all at one farm since the overhead is much less and they don’t have to pay workers. CY milk, however, must be watched, and having a bunch of different farmers do that is ridiculous. So they have one huge farm with one mashgiach, but that requires much more land, much more workers, etc. so it costs much more overhead.

Hope this explains something.

chaimmss, thanks for your explanation about the economics of CY. I still have a question about that though. Wouldn’t the milk aggregator/ bottler have to pay the small farmer enough money to cover his costs, including his overhead/ employee costs? If so, couldn’t the large farm achieve greater economies of scale than the individual small farmers could? I’d think that this would partially offset the higher supervision costs associated with CY.

Itzik: Mehadrin started in 1949. (Despite what the trucks say, since 1950.)

syriansephardi: the hazelnut open oysters!!! yum!!

syriansephardi: next time try it!!! it’s delicious!!!

syriansephardi: ha!! alrighty!!!

in l.a.: Why is it worth it? R’ Moshe held it’s muttar to drink cholov stam, so what’s the big deal?

From another website- the views of Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlit”a on chalav stam:

hailah: What is the halacha lemaaseh on cholov Yisroel?

Rav Dovid Feinstein:

{The above teshuvos were transcribed by Harav Yitzchok Dovid Frankel of Cedarhurst, NY, in Kuntres Yad Dodi.}

Chodosh is a totally different thread, but you’re asking “good”. There’s a question if Chodosh even applies in chutz la’aretz, and if it’s deoraysah or miderabbanan, and how far you have to go to be mevarer, since most wheat is winter wheat, although a miut hamatzui is spring wheat. Not sure why it’s exactly comparable, since the fact that it may be a deoraysa even in chutz la’aretz should make chodosh worse than cholov yisroel, although the minhag has clearly been to be meikel on chodosh for hundreds of years in the shtetles. I’ll have to research this- good he’ara.

(Mod: Apologies in advance for the length of this post; it is 100% Halacha discussion, and nothing else.)

Rav Bick ZTL, Rav Henkin ZTL and others all disagreed with Rav Moshe on many occasion, and they were entitled. But unless you are qualified to agree with one psak over another, and in the base sense of a prevailing halachic behavior in your family or community, you should follow whoever is the bigger posek (or poskim), and that often would mean Rav Moshe. However, that having been said, there is no such Halachic status as “Posek Hador”. Rav Moshe ZTL was great beyond great, but there is no reason to consider his psakim more authoratative than let’s say Rav Aharon Kotler or the Chazon Ish. There would be no reason, let’s say, to follow Rav Moshe’s shiurim for the Pesach seder than those of the Chazon Ish. In fact, Roshei Yeshiva and Poskim, such as Rav Hutner, Rav Eli Meyer Bloch of Telz, the Debreciner Rav, the Chelkas Yaakov and others, sided with the Satmar Rebbe over Rav Moshe regarding the obligatory size of a mechitzah in a shul, and/or the permissibility of artificial insemination, which were the two big disagreements that those Gedoim had in halachah. It was indeed Rav Hutner who approached the Satmar Rav asking him to write a refutation to Rav Moshe’s psak about the Mechitzos. You will not find the phrse “posek hador” anywhere in any meaningful way. The Tzitz Eliezer uses it all over the place in his titles, and, I believe, either the Teshuvos Maharshal writes it among the titles to the Ramah, or the Teshuvos Ramah about the Maharshal. But in any case, the title connotes no halachic status.

Unfortunately, many of those who use Rav Moshe’s psakim do so only when he is maikel. He permitted Cholov Yisroel (only b’shas hadchak – though they don’t pay attention to that part of the psak); he lowered the height of the Mechitzos — psakim such as these made life much easier for the Modern Orthodox, and even the out-of-town Orthodox communities. They believe they need Rav Moshe’s psakim to facilitate their mission as Modern Orthodox rabbis, or to be able to cater to the not-so-frum and do Kiruv. That is not a bad thing. A psak is a psak. However, when the same Rav Moshe prohibits Shabbos clocks (in most cases), or prohibits going to college, or paskens unequivocally that boys are prohibited m’doraisa to be “just friends” with girls, the same rabbonim with “Rav Moshe’s mechotzos” and cholov stam suddenly rely on “other poskim” (though in the case of boys being friends with girls, there are no poskim of anywhere near that stature who disagree with Rav Moshe). Part of it is due, too, to the fact that, at least in America, the other two personalities who were considered Gedolei Hador of that caliber were Rav Aharon Kotler and the Satmar Rav ZTL. Because of Rav Aharon’s stance on college and secularism in general, and the Satmar Rav’s stance on Zionism, there was no way in the world that those two Torah giants were going to be considered authoratative in what constituted the Orthodox community in America in those days. Instead, Rav Aharon was largley ignored, as it was predicted the followers of his hashkofo would become “mere tourist attractions” (thats a quote from Rav Y.B. Soloveichik in his “Five Addresses” about who he refers to as “seperatist Orthodox”. Rav Aharon was the leader of that Hashkafa), and the Satmar Rav was passed off as extreme by these people. In other words, it was “safe” for people to accept Rav Moshe and ONLY Rav Moshe because once you accept someone’s psakim in hilchos shabbos and kashrus, for example, you are forced to at least think about considering the fact that their stance against college or Zionism comes with as least as much authority. Of course, Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L deserved all the honor and respect that he received. He was a Gaon among Geonim and a Tzadik among Tzadikim, and one of the great Halachic authorities of our times. Thats not the issue. The issue is the fact that people pick and choose which Gaon-among-Geonim to follow when and because it is comfortable for them to do so.

The Gedolim in the days of the Shulchan Aruch and shortly thereafter have agreed to accept the psakim of the mechaber (and the Rema) as authoritative. The Shach writes that one cannot even claim “kim li” against a psak of the Shulchan Aruch. This is akin to accepting someone as your “Rebbi”, where you follow his psakim. This is the same thing that happened when, let’s say, Klal Yisroel decided that the period of Chazal has ended after the 7th generraiton of Amorayim (Mar Zutra, Mar bar Rav Ashi, etc), and nobody from here on in can add to the Gemora. There was no “halachah lmoshe misinai” that told us that the Gemora was sealed; it was the accepted reality told to us by our Gedolim. The same thign applies to accepting the Shulchan Aruch and Rema.

Because the Gezeirah was that a Jew has to supervise the milk, NOT that you have to have some kind of insurance that it is Kosher. Rav Moshe’s heter – however far one takes it – is to interpret the Gezeirah that any kind of insurance is sufficient to fulfill chazal’s gezeirah, which would make American milk cholov yisroel. But that itself is a matter of interpretation. If the Gezeirah was simply that you need a Jew supervising the milk, then even Rav Moshe would concede that even if you have reaosn to be comforatable that the milk is kosher, you still did not fulfill the gezeirah. In addition, even if you will accept Rav Moshe’s interpretation that the gezeirah is only that you need insurance not specifically Jewish supervision, who says that the laws are sufficient insurance that would satisfy chazal? If the penalty for violaitng the law is a fine, but the company will make more profit by violating the law, then how do we know that law is insurance? Very very often stores violate the Kosher Consumer laws. They put trief meat in the Kosher section etc, and they get fines that do nto deter them from being repeat offenders. Then there is the question as to who says the laws are being honestly enforced? As a certina godol said about the heter of the inspectors: “You give me two hundred dollars and I’ll give you four inspectors.” What halachic basis is thee to believe the inspectors are doign their jobs, being that Akum have no ne’emanus haalchicly?

Rav Moshe’s Teshuva (YD:5) says simply that the heter to eat cholov stam is “only b’shas hadchak”. Its pretty short and sweet. And this letter coincides with the letter to Rabbi Weinfeld of Monsey as well. Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT”L, in a letter to a Rabbi Weinfeld in Monsey, printed in “Hilchos Kashrus” by Rabbi B. Forst of Far Rockaway, explained what he meant with his “heter” for cholov stam. He says that even though there are rationales for saying that nowadays all dairy processed under government supervision has the status of cholov yisroel, it is still not proper to drink milk except under Jewish supervision, even if it is a bit more expensive or difficult to acquire. In a teshuva, someone – obvisouly not Rav Moshe – did put the titles on the teshuvos, and the title on this one says “Hidur l’hishtamesh b’cholov yisroel”, even though the Teshuva says it is indeed not merely a hidur but permissible b’shas hadchak. So the “yad zorim” did get in there, but its obvious they did not make up the Teshuva. In Rav Moshes subsequent Teshuvus, particularly the one in the last volume of IM, where he says his heter for Cholov Stam is only meant “bshas hadchak.” Thats a quote.

Rav Moshe’s heter is that it is possible that American milk is NOT cholov stam but cholov yisroel. if you hold that it is permitted, you don’t need a heter. CY is not a chumrah, it is a l’chatchilah, and there is a big difference. Everyone should be makpid on cholv yisroel halachicly, even according to Rav moshe – he says this clearly – unless there are dire circumstances. Rav Moshe sayus clearly in more than one place that unless there is a shas hadchak or some kind of dire need, it is not proper to drink cholov stam. Rav Moshe had his reasons for not making rules enforcing what he held to be correct. Perhaps he felt that not everyone was holding, yet, by doing the right thing. Who knows. Rav Moshe’s psak in his seforim that non Cholov Yisroel is not permitted except in strained circumstances. The last Teshuva, on this, in fact, is to a Yeshiva.

I probably would have interpreted Rav Moshe’s early Teshuvos – the statement “baal nefesh yachmir” is ambiguous enough to merit such an interpretation, for sure. But Rav Moshe himself, in two places – a letter that was first published NOT in Igros Moshe, but in other places (most notably Rabbi Binyonim Forst’s Pischei Halachah) and the latest Igros Moshe, printed not too long ago, Rav Moshe himslef interprets what he means – and he states clearly that he means you cannot drink Cholov Stam unless its a shas hadchak. In the last volume of Igros Moshe there is a teshuva on cholov yisroel where he explains what he means in previous teshuvos. Rav Moshe says – writes, rather, in a few places, that his heter to drink cholov stam is not meant to be used l’chatchilah, but rather ONLY B’SHAS HADCHAK!. Those are his words, not mine, and, in more detail, is reiterated by him in a second place.

The issue of cholov yisroel does not have naything to do with minhag. Whether your family does or doesnt use cholov yisroel, there is still a halachah in shulchan aruch that says you have to keep it. And Rav Moshe says that bshas hadchak, if you must have cholov stam, there is a heter. According to Rav Moshe, that heter (a) applies to all of klal yisroel equally, and (b) is halachic, not minhag-driven, (c) applies ONLY bshas hadchak – not a heter to buy Hershy bars, and (d) is still to be used only by non “baalei nefesh”, which he says should not rely on the heter. R’ Moshe Feinstein after hearing that he ate cholov stam – it sickened him such that he threw up.

As far as Utensils are concerned, the rule is, that when you cook something in a utensil, the utensil takes on the status of the item cooked in it. So if you coooked pork, the utensil takes on the status of pork, such that whatever you cook in it has the stats of pork; if you cook cholov akum in a pot, then whatever is cooked in that pot gets the status of cholov akum. Of course, the rules of Ben Yomo apply across the board as well – for the first 24 hours, the pot retains the status of the item cooked in it even bdoeved; afterwards, it is assur lchatchilah to cook in the pot, but bdieved the food may be eaten. That applies whether the food cooked in the pot was pork or cholov akum or whatever.

i always thought there was more of a reason to be maikel with cholov yisroel than yoshon. yoshon is clearly stated in the torah, right? by korban omer. the issur of cholov akum is just a geder so that we know the milk is kosher. it’s starting out as a derabonon.

and by the way, in the shtetle i’m sure they were getting wheat from years beforehand and the rabonim probably checked that out. nowadays with modern equipment we get wheat much faster than that.

and i once heard that after the iron curtain fell yoshon became an issue here in america. beforehand the supply was backed up so everything was yoshon, but after the cold war american started supplying russia with flour so that ended.

not sure why i even asked but now i’m curious. anyone know the original source of the psak for the heter?

I enjoyed the “big one”‘s “teshuvoh”. I do not have all the Igros Moshe handy so i cannot check the actual words used. However, I was always toaught that the hetter of milk that was not supervised by a jew originated much earlier than R”Moshe zz’L. It was the “Pri chodosh” ( not exactly a nobody)who was the first to use the hetter of the non- jew being afraid of getting caught by the authorities (“mirtses”)as the basis of allowing milk that is supervised by the authorities. If i have the time over shabbos IYH. I’ll try to find the original Prichodhs. I also remember a Chazon Ish who said the same thing.R” Moshe only popularized it here in the usa, but the hetter was around for two hundred years.

The issue is the fact that people pick and choose which Gaon-among-Geonim to follow when and because it is comfortable for them to do so.

This is a problem in both direction (machmir and maikel). However, I follow my Rabbi – so if he says Chalav Stam is OK, I follow that. He is my posek and I am consistent.

I wonder if the health risks associated with non-organic dairy (lower nutrient content, antibiotic issues etc) change the status since the long term effects of non-organic milk is unknown but considered to be causing some issues today.

and i once heard that after the iron curtain fell yoshon became an issue here in america. beforehand the supply was backed up so everything was yoshon, but after the cold war american started supplying russia with flour so that ended.

One year, my Rav told me that there is still a 2-3 year backup in wheat in America, and there is little chance of actual problems with yoshon. I don’t know if that still applies though.

When Rav Steinman visited America years ago, he had a bachur milk the cow in the farm and bring the milk over directly in a pot that he was watching the entire time.

I had a relative of my mother’s who used to work as a chalav yisroel mashgiach in the 50’s. He used to supervise the milking and sit on the trucks to the milk silo . At the time, there were 2 big cholov yisroel firms, and people who held of one hashgacha didn’t hold of the other. The interesting thing is that both companies stored their milk IN THE SAME MILK SILO! They just kept track of who put how many gallons in.

Rav Hershel Shachter holds that ALL milk is treif. Good thing Rabbi Belsky disagrees.

ALL milk. He discusses it in a shiur called a amira lenochri, available on YU’s torah website.

then what do you make of the passuk

??-???? ??? ???? ???

if the milk is forbidden this issur would be obvious.