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Who gets preferance to become Shatz, when there are multiple chiyuvim?
How do these factor:
Shiva, Shloshim, First Year, Yahrtzeit
Regular Mispallel vs. Guest
Choshov Mispallel (i.e. Talmid Chochom or R”Y) vs. Regular Mispallel
Someone saying kaddish/davening for a parent vs. someone saying kaddish/davening for someone else (i.e. paid or friend or grandparent)
And if multiple preferences conflict – i.e. if shloshim and a regular mispallel both get preference, does a regular mispallel who has just a regular yahrtzeit still get preference over a guest who is in shloshim?
And what if two mispallelim have equal preference?
The Minhag almost everywhere for many years was that a Yahrtzeit has preference over anything, even Shloshim (and that’s how it’s brought down in the Kitzur). The M”B Paskens that Shloshim goes before Yahrtzeit. So nowadays, where Rabbis don’t know the Minhag and look up to Pasken out of the M”B, the Minhag is slowly changing that a Shloshim goes before a Yahrtzeit.
The Biur Halachah to Siman 132, outlines the order of preference in saying Kaddish, and he adds explicitly that precedence for serving as Shaliach
Tzibbur has the same rules as that for Kaddish.
Avel during shiva or sheloshim.
Then, Yahrzeit for a parent takes priority over a regular avel.
The FIRST YAHRZEIT trumps an avel in sheloshim.
Kaddish for other relatives is no obligation whatsoever, and he therefore has no claim to be the shaliach tzibbur.
Some shuls reverse the order of priorities of sh’loshim vs. yahrzeit, because of the reasoning that the sh’loshim has thirty days, while the yahrzeit has only one.
As for the person who comes to shul just for yahrzeit vs. the avel who
is a regular, the regular even if a lesser chiyuv has precedence.
I’ve seen some shuls create a side minyan for a second chiyuv, while others hold one larger minyan is most appropriate.
Hershi left out a 5th categeory of Chiyuv:- the last day of the 11th month; such an individual is lower than a Shivoh or Sheloshim or Yohrzeit, but is higher than other “Yud Beis” Chodesh Mourners.
By the way, when talking about a Johrzeit having precedence for the Omud & Kaddish over a “Yud Beis” Chodesh Oveil & being on par with Sheloshim, this ia talking exclusively about the actual Hebrew calendar date of the Johrzeit. The Motzei Shabbos of the week running into the Yohrzeit, such an individual cannot take the Omud nor the Kaddish away from any Oveil. If there is no other Oveil at the Miyan, then such an individual is allowed on the Omud, if the Gabbai ok’s it.
Now that the Viznitz Rebbe passed away on 20th Adar:- In 2 years time shall his sons be observing the 2nd Yohrzeit:-
a) 20th Adar hoRishon?
b) 20th Adar haSheni
c) Both of the above, and if so, will they be fasting &/or making a Siyum & going to the Kever both times, and taking the Omud from another Oveil both times? or just one of the 2 dates?
Adar Sheini is the primary and default Adar. Adar Rishon is the added month.
I’ve spent some time reviewing the topic of when to observe a yahrtziet in a year with 2 Adars. There is a three way machloket (with many poskim holding each position) regarding which is the “real” Adar: the first (Rama), the second (Mechaber) or both (Gra). The Mishna B’rurah (568/41-42) says that if possible one should fast on both dates but as far as the right to lead services that is only in Adar I however kaddish should be said in both Adars. If fasting twice is not an option then Adar I is the primary.
I have an interesting scenario where my parents had no sons. My husband learned that our sons (and my sister’s sons) can daaven the omud in place of a son. Their position is stronger than that of a son-in-law. My son turned Bar Mitzvah in the last month of my year for my father, so he finished the year daavening the omud for him. He’ll daaven on the yahrtzeits.
In the shul where I daven, if there is a non-regular with yartzeit and a regular within the year, they will ask the regular if he allows the other guy to daven for the amud. I haven’t heard anyone refuse yet.
If there is a yartzeit, they will also have an extra kaddish just for the yartzeit (the gabbai will announce that it’s a yartzeit kaddish). This is done in different ways, depending on which tefillah it is. By Shacharis, the minhag is usually to say one kaddish yasom at the end, after the yom – they don’t say one after Aleinu. When someone has yartzeit, they’ll say one after Aleinu so there’s an extra one. By Mincha and Maariv they’ll usually say a chapter of tehillim at the end, with a kaddish after. If there’s an extra tefillah said that day (l’Dovid, Barchi Nafshi, etc.) they’ll add the kaddish there.
How about making a second or third minyan so everyone can daven for the amud?
When 2 members of a Shul are both on same level of Chiyuv, how does one determine which one gets the Omud & Kaddish?
If they are both civilized adults they work it out between themselves or defer to the gabbai. If they aren’t, kol d’alim gvar.
I can’t remember where I read this, but I’ll post it anyway (not verbatim).
The reason why we say kaddish (or daven for the omud or learn) for a niftar is to replace the kiddush hashem that has been lost since that persons passing. The best way to replace that kiddush hashem is to learn torah. As not every one was capable of learning (no artscroll back then) they would daven for the omud. The problem arose as to what to do for a koton who could not learn and was not able to daven for the omud until his bar mitzvah. It was for these children that the saying of kaddish was instituted.
Kaddish being said by a mourner etc.. is first mentioned by the Ohr Zarua in the 13th century.
I know of 1 Shul, where they always give to the older Ovail, claiming that this way, no-one can argue, and it is clear cut who should receive the Omud.
In my estimation, this is nothing short of discrimination on grounds of age.
The Torah supports age discrimination in favor of the elders.
My current policy is that if someone else wants to daven for the amud, then I let them. I only go up if no one else wants to.
The Wolf
Wolf: What if the other guys have the same policy as yourself?
Wolf: What if the other guys have the same policy as yourself?
I don’t understand. So, if everyone passes and nobody wants to daven for the amud, then I will.
The Wolf
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