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On a recent thread somoone wrote “So basically I think what is causing kids to go OTD is when they hear contradictory things. Such as hearing a rule from a school then hearing their own parents bash it by saying it’s wrong, unbiased on hlacha, bad, extreme, etc.”
I replied there but I think this deserves a thread of its own as I dotn want to hijack that thread with this side issue and more importantly I dont know how the school there is portraying their practice.
But I m not sure parents have to 100% agree with every practice of the school. Rules hsould be followed but Im not sure parents have to agree with them
As I said there I dont think chinuch is 100% the purview of the school, parents have a role too. And parents are at an advantage in some ways as it is easier to personalize the chinuch and deliver nuance. IT is easier for a hypothetical school to say “The policy is no hair longer than 4 inches past the shoulders as is required al p ihalacha by all bnos Yisroel” Than to deliver nuance. Parents are better equipped to deliver nuance to their child. Though it has to be done carefully.Imagine someone with a charedi bend who for whatever reason ends up in an out of town community. He sends his older elementary school aged kids to the local day school that say celebrates Yom Hoatzmaot. IS it wrong if he teaches his children that they dont celebrate it and explain why? Im not saying the child should show up to school with sackcloth and a sign declaring their mourning. But if done respectfully I dont think that is harmfull and I think a parent has an obligation to be mechanech their child as they see fit.
the same goes for halacha there is nothing wrong with A sefardi teaching his child different halchic practices than s/he is taught in an Ashkenazi school. Though again with nuance and perhaps in school uniformity is more important.
Last example
In 7th grade my Rebbi decided to introduce some “yedios kelalyios” he gave out lists of Sifrei tanach, Malchei yisroel, etc to memorize. One such list was of the Shoftim. Of course the list included Avimelech, and he asked if anyone heard of Avimelech. My father had encouraged learning nach among other things and I knew who he was so I spoke up “Avimelech was a Rasha son of Gideon….” He “corrected” me and said “Chazal say Avimelech was a Tzadik who left Eretz Yisroel due to a hunger with his sons Machlon and Kilyon …”
I asked politly if he was confusing with Elimelech and he said it was a kri/ksiv and added something along the lines of “youre not as smart as you think you are and you certainly arent smarter than your Rebbi”
Obviously I was hurt. when I got home my father said that I was actually right and the Rebbi was wrong.Does anybody think my father should have sided with the Rebbi?
Admittedly the examples 4 examples: 1) Rules 2) Hashkafa 3) Halcha and 4) Facts/general knowledge are different.
My point though is. I dont think Parents have to automatically agree with the school in all situationsIf the Rebbe/Morah teaches something wrong, it should be corrected. But how it is done is the key- no making fun of the Rebbe/Morah, putting him/her down for not knowing. It could be explained as “everyone makes mistakes, forgets something, even a Rebbe, or maybe he was referring to a meforesh or source that I am not familiar with; there is no one, no matter how big a talmid chochom, who does not have more to learn, etc, but he still has a lot he can teach you and still deserves your respect.”
In terms of school rules not conforming with family standards, a parent can explain, we do X, and we follow a valid halacha/hashkafa, but the school says to do Y, and it is important while you are in school to be a part of the school and follow their rules. If their is a situation where a school is following a questionable approach to halacha (say a local day school has girls perform/sing at graduation in front of the fathers), then it can be explained that the school has its reasons, maybe not all families are at a level to follow the halachca properly, but we are, so we should not do X. In other words, there does not have to be 100% agreement, but their should always be respect.when parents constantly bad mouth the rebeyim is there a wonder that the kids go otd
I agree 100 percent. I beleive I wrote this on the other thread- you can agree to disagree. As long as you don’t ilegitimize the school. Meaning saying they are wrong, bad etc.
For the most part though, you should agree with the majoirty of things…
Your father could of added “I beleive you are right, the Rebbi probably made a mistake, or he thought you were talking about something else, or there really are two Avimelech’s” etc.I don’t think you should ever say “he was wrong” and that’s it. Unless it’s something really horrible, like getting thrown out and publicly shamed for something very small- then you should speak to the principal…and your kid.
I’m saying, always try to add things, be dan lkaf zchut, and show how this is gray and can be interpreted differently.
Winnie:
You wrote: “If the Rebbe/Morah teaches something wrong, it should be corrected. But how it is done is the key- no making fun of the Rebbe/Morah, putting him/her down for not knowing.”
I completely agree. The truth of this statement is obvious. What is routinely neglected is that the same is true for the reverse. Students are more apt to make mistakes than their rebbeim or teachers. And our Chazal teach us in Pirkei Avos יהי כבוד תלמידך חביב עליך כשלך. The respect of a talmid is a clear dictate on this Mishna. Yet, the name calling, public shaming, and degrading of a talmid, whose mistake may be in the subject matter of the learning, or more likely in behavior, are completely assur, yet daily occurrence.
It is perfectly within the responsibility of the parents to inform the rebbe, teacher, or menahel(es) who shames a student that they better stop it. Obviously, this requires direct interaction, not using the child as an intermediary. But if the faculty cannot demonstrate respectfulness of the talmidim, they have already taught by example that respect is not important.
Good point, but it’s a two way street.
Adherence to “rules” imposed by a private yeshiva/BY/kollel/pre-school etc. shouldn’t be a question…they are entitled under both secular law and halacha to impose such rules as long as they do not involve physical or emotional harm to children. (I’m putting aside the few schools that still claim a right to use corporal punishment which fortunately such dysfunctional practices are largely gone from Yiddeshe mosdos). The more prevalent issue in many schools are students who question or challenge the instructional naarative they receive from teachers. Many extraordinarily bright kids, some informed by their own internet research (where schools allow for such access) are getting suspended for speaking up in class, even when done so respectfully. Many kids don’t seem to have basic derech eretz and offer their “counterpoint” without being disruptive but often the smartest kids are most prone to be an azaz panim and disrupt the flow on instruction. Parents, teachers and school administrators need to get more involved with these types of issues and develop policies setting out boundary conditions for “intellectual disruption” on both limudei torah and secular subjects.
If parents vs schools is the general dynamic, that is a problem. Schools exist only to help parents provide their children with an education when homeschooling is not an option.
Gadol, I don’t understand what you are saying- are you saying that there is no place for a bright kid to ask a challenging question because it might disrupt the flow of the lesson, and that just doing so is chutzpadik? But what are bright kids supposed to do when they have questions? Resort to finding answers online? The only “question” that we ignore is one from the Rasha, who is not really asking a question, but has an agenda to shove. Is that what you are talking about? It didn’t sound like it from your description. I don’t think any legitimate question, from any kid should be pushed aside and labeled chutzpa. No question coming from intellectual honesty or curiosity should be thought of as a disruption. If the teacher can’t handle it during class time, he should discuss it- or have someone else discuss it if it is beyond his league- with the student after class. Kid should not be expelled for that!
GH:
I agree that it is imperative that students adhere to the rules of the yeshiva. Encouraging rebellion is never positive. But the real issue here is different. That is, should the yeshiva be imposing these rules on their students? The fact is that they can make any rules they want, even if these rules make no sense. Any store can make its own rules, as it is a private enterprise.
But we would hope that our yeshivos are public entities, and are here to advance the continuity of Torah, thus performing a vital public service. If so, the rules must categorically be for the benefit of the students. So, pick the rule, and examine whether it serves the student, assisting in growth, education, or character refinement. If not, it is likely in place to enhance the image or reputation of the yeshiva, its hanhala, or to feed someone’s ego. The latter is shameful, and such policies and rules should never be made in the first place. I still think that compliance is important, but it is a few levels below stupid to think that is more important than helping every single talmid develop a connection to HKB”H and a passion to grow in Torah and Mitzvos.
Lastly, discipline that is common in many yeshivos today (there has been noteworthy improvement here, but nowhere near enough) is via consequences and punishment, which is distancing and potentially destructive. The true discipline that is critical to chinuch is guidance. As I have repeated so many times in the CR, revisit the many seforim from Gedolei Yisroel on chinuch. I am only expressing their agenda, based purely on Torah.
If I got a letter from my electric company that said there is now a dress code for their customers, I would protest.
parent vs school? that is the problem. parents and schools should work together, towards the same goal.
parents should also remember, the mitzvah of chinuch is on them, not the school.
I think GH is talking about the desperate issue of teachers who aren’t quailified, and keep a calm classroom by ignoring anyone they can’t answer and are afraid to say I don’t know. Apparently questions lead to other children thinking. 😨😨😨😨
I also want to add that I think that if the parents really don’t agree with a school policy but pretend that they do, then they are being dishonest and giving the kid a contradictory message (since they are saying one thing but thinking another), and that is much more likely to confuse the kid than if the parents and school have different opinions.
That is my real issue with such a policy. They don’t necessarily have to voice their disagreement -(that would be my approach, but I could hear why some would disagree)- but they shouldn’t lie and say they agree when they don’t.
I think it’s much better to be open.
Ubiquitin – beautiful! I agree with you. I know people who think that it is a given that you have to tell your children that you agree with all of the school rules. I have never agreed with that approach (although since I’m not a parent yet, I can’t say for sure).
I do think it’s a problem for a parent to make fun of or be overly-critical of the school (or even to state disagreement with the school too often). Someone once told me that she thinks that’s the reason that her kids ended up at-risk or OTD.
But at the same time, I don’t think that you should pretend that you agree with every school policy if you don’t. I think that’s both dishonest and poor chinuch. Your kids should know that they and you are allowed to think and to have different opinions than the school, as long as you make it clear that the school has a right to make these rules and they are obligated to follow them despite their disagreement (as long as following them doesn’t involve breaking halacha).
I think that’s the best chinuch you can give your child- to learn that others aren’t perfect but you still need to respect them, and to learn that there’s nothing wrong with having an opinion.
Also, it’s important for them to understand the difference between a school rule and halacha (especially when it comes to tznius). A school rule is not halacha and you are allowed to disagree with it even though you have to follow it.
Regarding your example with your Rebbe, I tend to agree with WTP. I can’t really say if your father was right or not since it would depend on what exactly you said to your Rebbe and what he said to you and how hurt you were, etc. On the one hand, you needed validation, but on the other hand, it’s important that you realize that you can’t be chutzpadik.
You make an interesting point about parents being in a better position to give over nuances. I never thought about that before, but what you wrote makes sense.
And it would make sense for the parents to see the school as their partner in being mechanech their child in the sense that if they have an issue with something the school does, their job should simply be to fill in the gap as opposed to knocking the school.Ironically, I just had such a case, but I doubt it is a cause for OTD. My boys’ school is doing an Elul campaign to promote proper davening and neigel vasser- they get a stamp from the Rebbe each day that they daven nicely and bring in a note from home that they washed properly. The note explaining the campaign to the parents said the kids should be encouraged to wash with water next to their beds, as they learned in school. Now I know many people are makpid on this, it happens to be that we are not and go by the opinion that it is fined to wash in the sink too. My son mentioned this to me, before I read the note, and I said, but we follow a different opinion, and the point is to wash neigel vasser and it’s fine if you do it from the sink. I don’t know if I would have said differently had I read the note, I didn’t know I was outright contradicting what the principal had said. On the other hand, is it proper chinuch to set up water bowls by their beds just during the next 2 weeks of the campaign? Besides that, practically speaking, considering how tight their beds are, someone is sure to end up with a very wet bed.
From of the discussion here, it seems that there is confusion over the definition of “chutzpah”. It would be dangerous to say that chutzpah is whatever the rebbi says it is. Yes, I said it would be dangerous. With the limited training and experience that too many rebbeim have, they are more apt to take a challenging question as chutzpah, and respond to the situation emotionally, rather than academically. The answer to the Avimelech – Elimelech situation should have NEVER included the retort the rebbi gave, regardless of whether he was right or wrong about the truth. A rebbi has no privilege to bring his emotional state into the classroom, other than that which is needed to love every talmid, and have personal investment in seeing that talmid succeed. Here, it seems clear that this rebbi allowed his ego into the room, and his response came from that part of him – a real no-no in chinuch.
So what is chutzpah? I won’t propose a standard definition here. What I will say is that chutzpah is not a form of rebellion, but a symptom that the child is unhappy. It could be a poor relationship between the child and that rebbi, maybe with friends, other faculty members, maybe outside issues that the child brings into the room. The talmid can bring these issues into class with him – because he is a kid. Part of chinuch is to help the talmid push aside the other distractions, and focus on the studies. The rebbi that is clueless about this is simply untrained, and simply incompetent. That is his job. And if he lacks the skills to perform the needed tasks, then he should change careers.
What the average rebbi calls chutzpah is the child’s cry for attention. Hey, Rebbi, Rebbi, do your job. These opportunities to invoke discipline are teaching moments. Use them.
WTP: handled great. You can tell them it’s not practical and you aren’t makpid on it. Explain why people ARE makpid, and if they do want to be makpid, open the door. Tell them “I’m not makpid, but if it’s something you want to do, even just for the next two weeks- I’ll support you on it”
There have been some kids going OTD since before school was invented.
ubiquitin: Your response was “Awaiting Moderation” as I composed my response.
If a Rebbe, no matter what grade level, makes a mistake, he should be told about it. I had an issue like this last year and contacted the Sgan Menahel who handled the situation.
WTP: I understand your position on neigel vasser as I too was brought up with washing at a sink. I would not stop my child from washing by the bed if they really wanted to. My children’s beds are not so close to one another so I don’t have to worry about them spilling water on the bed (on the floor, probably yes). However, your question “is it proper chinuch to set up water bowls by their beds just during the next 2 weeks of the campaign?” may have an answer that can be derived from the Shulchan Aruch/Mishna Berurah.
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14166&st=&pgnum=141
The Mechaber in 453:1 states that during Aseres Yemei Tshuvah one who is not nizhar in Pas Cusim should be zaher during these 10 days. The Mishna Berurah adds Pas Palter. I don’t know what your family does but if you do follow this halacha for these 10 days……then yes, it would be proper chinuch to allow them to wash by the bed for the two weeks of the campaign.
I know it’s not the best proof but…
WTP: Negel vasser cup covers are about 30 cents a piece in the US. They work great for standard size “teplech” and have saved us some trouble many times.
But do train your kid to take the neggel-vasser out right after washing as there’s no cover I know of for the bowl. This should solve your main practical concerns.
IMHO it’s definitely preferable to follow the school’s guidelines in this case, especially if the kid is apt to tell his classmates that he didn’t have to, since his mother said so – and possibly cast both you and the school in a bad light (you for not following the letter to a T, and the school for piling on Chumras some don’t hold by).
Good luck!
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