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People mock parents who walk with their children on a leash, but doesn’t a leash balance freedom of movement and safety?
My boss (two year old daughter) has me on her leash
I personally do not believe in doing this but understand those who do. They should not be mocked.
I believe in doing this. I didn’t believe in it until I had a toddler.
There’s two types of people in this world. People who stick their toddler in a stroller and don’t let them run around outside, and people who use the harness. And people who don’t know how to count.
You forgot the third type: those who let them run around but watch and follow them closely
You forgot the third type: those who let them run around but watch and follow them closely
They are a small minority.
You can’t avoid danger in this world. Do you know that from the second a baby is born, he is in danger of the greatest tragedy and that every second that goes by puts him more and more in danger of it?
That tragedy is called death. It happens to everyone who is born, and every second brings you closer to it.
The point is that obviously a person must take reasonable precautions in life, but you should never allow a fear of death to prevent you from living.
Driving is very dangerous and yet I never heard of anyone who refused to drive or allow his child in a car because of the dangers involved.
The question is: “what is considered appropriate and necessary hishtadlus in this case, and to what extent will it inhibit the child’s natural sense of freedom to keep him on a leash?
The question is: “what is considered appropriate and necessary hishtadlus in this case, and to what extent will it inhibit the child’s natural sense of freedom to keep him on a leash?
That’s not the only question. It is one of several relevant questions.
Other questions include:
How will use of a harness or non-use affect how frequently I let the kid walk versus stick in stroller or not take outside at all?
How will use of a harness or non-use affect my stress levels? How will my stress levels affect my kid’s stress levels?
It sounds horrible…but there are certain types of kids- kids who have no fear, don’t follow instructions, have lots of curiosity and run off every time the parents turn around, or even when they don’t turn around. It is especially difficult if the parents have other kids with them too, who also need their parent’s attention. For those types of kids, it is protecting them to have them on a leash, and lets the parent go out without worrying about what might happen to the kid.
You forgot the third type: those who let them run around but watch and follow them closely
They are a small minority.
I think that everyone I know falls in that minority. I certainly don’t know ANYONE who uses a harness.
But then again, most people I know in the minority in most ways (Jewish, Frum, intelligent, nice…)
PBA – I’m just curious – do you really get that stressed out from having your kids run around? I’m not at that stage of life yet, but I’m the worrying type and I always worry about what a paranoid mother I will be, and how that will affect my kids and my ability to allow them their freedom.
I could see where if you will be really nervous, it might be a good idea, but I still think that it is better not to be so nervous and give the kid his freedom (if possible).
What concerns me is the idea that this could become the norm and then for sure everyone will be nervous if they don’t do it, and ALL the kids will lose their freedom.
But what are we talking about – are we talking about something that is done all the time, or just in specific circumstances (like a family Chol HaMoed trip somewhere crowded and/or dangerous where the danger of losing track of family members is very real).
And what age are we talking about? 2 year olds? 4 year olds? 6 year olds?
And what age are we talking about? 2 year olds? 4 year olds? 6 year olds?
Up to 21. At that point, they’re pretty much on their own.
I’m talking for example about walking on a sidewalk of a street with cars driving with an 18 month old who likes to run.
Your choice are to either use a harness, a stroller, or hover over them. Choice 3 is only possible if you don’t also have am infant or a 4 year old.
Most people I see choose stroller. I chose harness.
If you can’t see why choice 3 would be stressful, you should speak to a therapist because you are repressed
LUL, you might think that you will be in that minority. I’m sure the mother who took her kids to the zoo thought she also was careful, until her kid ended up in the gorilla’s cage! I don’t think she was a particularly irresponsible person, but there are only so many eyes one mother can have. If she has a child who is particularly active and she is afraid that she might lose track of him just in the normal process of watching a group of kids, then a harness is an option she can use to make sure that this child is contained in a (hopefully) safe way so that they can still enjoy the benefits of going to the zoo and seeing the animals and other attractions at the zoo without unduly endangering that child or anybody else.
This issue could be easily resolved if every afternoon parents just brought their children to a fenced-in Child Park where they got to run around for a few hours. It works for dogs.
Plus then communities can restrict play to only vaccinated children. The anti-vax parents and their unvaccinated children can start their own play group or something.
Of course I am not serious. Some children run around grocery stores. Yet they are too old to be restrained in a shopping cart.Even if the child is on a leash, he or she may still end up turning the corner too fast.
No one wants his or her child dashing into oncoming shopping cart traffic. For these moments, maybe a retractable leash works best?
Shavua tov 🙂
“If you can’t see why choice 3 would be stressful, you should speak to a therapist because you are repressed”
or just am not married and don’t have kids yet.
Listen, I’m not in the situation yet, and don’t have kids, but I know a lot of people who have a lot of kids bli ayin hora, and no one I know has a harness, and they seem to manage. And this has been going on for centuries (I think since the world began). I’m not saying it’s necessarily a problem to use a harness (I don’t feel qualified to have a definitive opinion on the subject, esp. since I’ve never seen it used), but to me, the concept is a chiddush, and it’s hard for me to see how much freedom the kid has if he is on a harness. But, I could be wrong.
sorry, I just reread your post, and saw that you were specifically talking about walking on the sidewalk – I thought you were talking about while in the park.
I guess I can hear that. When you are walking down the street with a bunch of kids, it is hard to keep them from going in the street.
IY”H, after I get new glasses this week, hopefully, I’ll be able to read the posts more carefully :).
PBA -“Most people I see choose stroller. I chose harness.”
I used a stroller. When there wasn’t another parent around – you have one kid push the stroller. That takes care of 2 kids. No stroller or no harness, is an accident waiting to happen!
A harness is for animals, and is demeaning to a human being, no matter what age.
There is nothing wrong with using a harness if there is understanding that it is a red flag.
“There is nothing wrong with using a harness if there is understanding that it is a red flag.”
A red flag for what?
takahmamash -“A harness is for animals, and is demeaning to a human being, no matter what age”
I somewhat agree with that, but IMHO letting them loose with no or little supervision is much worse!
I think that it’s become – not just a few, but that it’s very common, nowadays.
Are there really Frum people who use harnesses? This is the first I have heard of it.
I don’t think this is one of those black and white yes or no kind of decisions.
The child needs to feel:
-Free to make decisions, learn, explore
-Loved, protected, respected, safe
-And maybe even close to one’s parent(s) or caretaker while being out and about.
There are so many circumstances, temperaments, needs, situations, and etc that may call for the best option to be with a harness at this certain moment or maybe not. It has to be weighed with the side effects and risks.
Also we have to remember that there is no perfect option here.
Red flag for what? (That wearing a harness early in life may lead to a later passion for sky diving or hang gliding, c”s?)
I’m just wondering: All of you posters posting about harnesses:
1. Do you use a harness?
2. Do you personally know people who do? If yes, are they Frum?
3. Have you ever seen anyone use a harness?
4. Is this whole thing a joke or serious?
5. What is a harness anyhow? Never saw one – wouln’t know what it was if I bumped into it.
Tonight, in the Shopping Center, I did notice a donkey hanging out by itself w/o any kind of harness or owner in sight, peacefully eating grass. I guess in a country where animals wander around by themselves, no one would consider using a harness for a child if they don’t even use it for animals.
1. Do you use a harness?
N/A.
2. Do you personally know people who do? If yes, are they Frum?
N/A.
3. Have you ever seen anyone use a harness?
No but I have seen the leash bracelet thingy years ago. I only discovered that they actually made harnesses tonight after Googling it.
4. Is this whole thing a joke or serious?
Both.
5. What is a harness anyhow? Never saw one – wouldn’t know what it was if I bumped into it.
Google images may help. IMHO, at least from now on, if it crossed your path, you would recognize it.
LU -“2. Do you personally know people who do? If yes, are they Frum?”
Yes, yes.
“3. Have you ever seen anyone use a harness?”
Yes
Really??? wow, I’m shocked! Was it in Lakewood? What I want to know is, where does the harness go on the child – is it around his wrist, his waist or other?
I wish people would give it another name so it wouldn’t sound so bad.
How old was the kid?
Maybe davka it works for frum couples who have more children to look after at one time than the average secular couple?
1. Do you use a harness?
We used one for my child from about 16-21 months.
2. Do you personally know people who do? If yes, are they Frum?
Yes, a maggid shiur in a very prominent mainstream yeshiva, whose family my inlaws are close with.
4. Is this whole thing a joke or serious?
I think it’s a joke that people think there is something wrong with it. Yes, in brooklyn most people don’t use them. But in Brooklyn they also don’t use Baby Bjornes.
5. What is a harness anyhow? Never saw one – wouln’t know what it was if I bumped into it. Think of a backpack shaped like a teddy bear, with a long tail. And the shoulder straps buckle in front.
LU -“Really??? wow, I’m shocked! Was it in Lakewood? What I want to know is, where does the harness go on the child – is it around his wrist, his waist or other?”
No, they were from Israel vacationing in the USA.
A harness fits around the torso and is zippered in the back.
“How old was the kid?”
1-2 y/o.
I think parents who use a harness do it out of desperation, and not for your average kid. Parents often face lots of challenges from their children, some of whom just do not conform to “normal” behavior. If the choice is to keep a particularly hyperactive child locked up inside where he can be safely supervised, or take him out with a leash, what would you chose?
LU:
By the way, I’d like to welcome you to the small group of posters who have ever taken anything they said back, or qualified it at all. There’s about 2 of us.
Just to repeat: I agree that the harness is less freedom than walking without one (although I’m unconvinced 18 month olds need or want that freedom). But you should agree that it is more freedom than the stroller. So first we should criticize the people who stick their kid in the stroller instead of letting them walk themselves to the park or the store or wherever, and once we’re done with them, we can worry about the people who use the harness.
I call it a harness. The OP called it a leash.
Why do we have to worry about any of them?
I should also mention that my baby still occasionally brings me the harness to put on, to communicate that we should go on a walk.
I somewhat agree with that, but IMHO letting them loose with no or little supervision is much worse!
Why would a parent let a kid or kids that young “loose with no or little supervision?” This is a parent problem, not a kid problem.
takahmamash -“This is a parent problem, not a kid problem”
True! But it’s a common problem.
My child uses a harness and I am proud of it
It is both a parent problem and a kid problem. If someone uses a leash/harness to safely give a child space, that is very different from using a leash/harness in place of teaching a child safety, boundaries or to follow directions. Or in place of them learning it. It becomes a problem when it is arbitrarily used just because it’s easier. Same goes for videos, babysitters, candy, pacifiers etc.
It is both a parent problem and a kid problem. If someone uses a leash/harness to safely give a child space, that is very different from using a leash/harness in place of teaching a child safety, boundaries or to follow directions. Or in place of them learning it. It becomes a problem when it is arbitrarily used just because it’s easier. Same goes for videos, babysitters, candy, pacifiers etc.
Please come to my house and show me how to teach a 16 month old anything.
Seriously? My pleasure.
29 -“that is very different from using a leash/harness in place of teaching a child safety, boundaries or to follow directions.”
I think most people who use it are doing it for your first reason!
The few people that do it for your above reason, are not too common.
Most people who are negligent, just let the kids loose. And I’ve seen it many times – where I live!
My little one tells ME what to do. In no uncertain terms… You never heard HER wail…
“By the way, I’d like to welcome you to the small group of posters who have ever taken anything they said back, or qualified it at all. There’s about 2 of us.”
🙂
I hope it grows. That is one of the things I find most frustrating about the CR! No matter how many times or how well you try to explain something, it doesn’t do anything if people aren’t willing to be open to the possibility of listening and chasing their minds at all.
I hope nothing that I said could have been taken as offensive or critical. I’m just trying to understand the topic as it is a chiddush for me.
You did do a good job of explaining it. And using it while walking down the street (as opposed to in the park) certainly makes sense.
And I agree that 16 months is young to teach a kid not to run into the street. Anyhow, he can learn from observing his older siblings, since you are clearly not talking about an oldest or only child.
The only context I ever heard of it before was people blaming the lady whose 4 year old ran into the gorillas’ cage.
That really upset me! If you want to use a harness, that is one thing, but you can’t blame others for not using one. Also, the kid was four years old. Yes, four year olds run around. That’s life! You can’t keep your kids in cages your whole life, and you can’t prevent every possibility of an accident.
YW Moderator-29: “If someone uses a leash/harness to safely give a child space, that is very different from using a leash/harness in place of teaching a child safety, boundaries or to follow directions. Or in place of them learning it. It becomes a problem when it is arbitrarily used just because it’s easier.”
Okay so is this the red flag? Where it may indicate a “parent problem” (takahmamash)?
“By the way, I’d like to welcome you to the small group of posters who have ever taken anything they said back, or qualified it at all. There’s about 2 of us.”
Actually, there’s at least three. Lightbrite gets the #1 award for that!
There are actually many and I cringe at the insult to them.
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