- This topic has 52 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
As our children are growing and going through the school system, they seem to be inundated with prizes and rewards for even the smallest accomplishments.
I am a firm believer in a child feeling his/her self worth and success without the constant need for rewards. There is room every so often for a reward/sticker/prize, but for every little test, good behavior, or even refraining from bad behavior to receive one, I feel is handicapping the next generation. I’d love to hear some input on this.
I actually tend to agree with you. I feel we sometimes put too much emphasis on a child’s self-esteem, to a fault, in fact. If every single time a child does anything at all, we reward him, then when he really accomplishes a difficult task or masters a difficult concept, the Yasher koach will be rather hollow. There must be a p’shoroh, middle of the road, where a child is encouraged but not always being rewarded. It kind of gets annoying to hear a teacher say, “Wonderful job, Moisheleh – you stayed in your seat for two whole minutes.” Babies need such encouragement, older kids need to learn appropriate behavior, both by example and by being taught what is expected of them, no ifs, ands, or buts.
While positveanayim makes a good point it must include the simple fact “chanoch l’nar al pi darkoi” each child is different and some may nee more prizes then others to grow.
However the main thrust of the question touches on the core issuesof modern day chinuch.
We ad “maminim bnei maminim” understand that the torah is a bill of obligations that are placed upon us and spell out what we are required to do in this world, in essence it is a “Bill of Obligations” the exact opposite of a “bill of Rights” consequently it would seem that true chinuch which at it’s heart is ment to prepare “lchanech” a child to assume responsibilty to fulfill his obligations should focus on preparing one to shoulder responsibilty.
With this in mind perhaps the quastion needs to be asked is modern day chinuch properly preparing children to assume responsibilty or is it more focused on ensuring a child is able to assume his rights?
It would seem that the ansewer to the question at the start of this thread would depend on what oine assumes the main point of chinuch to be.
To positive,
While I agree- there is too much nosh and prizes and whatnot in our schools, still some of the time it’s a good idea. The Rambam says you should reward children for learning. I don’t think this has to be overdone. Also, for problematic kids, the shrinks have something called token economics. This method is to reinforce good behavior. So there are good reasons to do this, but like I said before if it’s overdone then it defeats its’ purpose.
It’s funny. When I was a kid, I always thought the reward for doing well was the 100 on the top of the test!
What age are you talking about?
Children need/deserve positive reinforcements and should get them.
While there is a point that becomes too much, too little isnt good either.
Well said positiveanyim
you all talk of the torah as a book of obligations. obligation denotes burden. the object of constant positive reinforcement is to make it seem more of a privilege to follow the torah
Okay, I admit I’m old. And I went to public school. A “very good” written by the teacher was it, if there was that much. I don’t remember there ever being prizes given, with a couple notable exceptions. In 6th grade there was an award given to the top math student, which I won. In 7th grade there was an award for the top science student, which I did not win. And in 8th grade there were two awards for top boy and girl math students, and I won that one, too. I still cherish those two plaques. Since they were rare events, they were quite meaningful. And they were for outstanding achievement. Not for doing what was normal and expected.
While bombmaniac is correct that one should view the ability to keep the Torah as a privilege, one mustn’t lose sight of the fact that it is a mandatory privlege, not an option.
The Balei Musar talk about the fact that while it may be that “ahavas Hashem” is a greater darga then yira, still one must have a combination of both. When one has a relationship based exclusivley on ahava he may come to think that there is room to be a little less careful in his obligations due to the great love Hashem has for him, which will cause Hashem to be forgiving, which is not the case as explained by Nesilas Yeshorim.
EDITED
true…but try explaining that to a kid
when we got the torah women were told positives to keep it and men the punishments for not.
So reinforcements have a mikor in the Torah.
As kids get older it becomes a problem if they do things only for the reward but for the most part it’s not a bad thing. Though some of the above posters come as bitter and cranky old people.
I admit I’m old. But I’m not bitter, and while I may be cranky about some subjects, I’m not about this.
I just happen to remember what it was like to bring home a paper with a good grade and show it to my parents who then let me know how proud they were of me for doing good work. That was all the reward I expected and all the reward I needed. And I just don’t understand why children today need more than their parents’ (and teacher’s) approval.
Just like yelling about every minor infraction will cause the major things to seem minor, rewarding every minor accomplishment takes away from the major ones. I hope that doesn’t sound bitter. It should sound like common sense!
Old…but your name says girl, I’m so confused.
I didn’t get/need prizes for everything. My kids are a little younger then the conversation intends and I agree that if you always give a prize even at a young age it gets worse as they get older.
That being said there is nothing wrong with prizes what worked when we were kids changes as the years go on and we need to change with it.
Praise is nice praise with a prize nicer.
to all you old timers out there bemoaning the state of the world today…GET OVER THE OLD DAYS!!! in the old days you could buy the pyramids for a dime…in the old days there was nothing wrong with taking a paddle to a child…in the old times, you didn’t have fast food…in the old times you had harder ways for doing easier things…WE UNDERSTAND!!! however, these days a dime gets you northing…these days most gedolim say that hitting kids is extremely counter productive…these days getting ready for shabbos involves spending 10 minutes in a meal mart…these days we have washing machines…THESE DAYS KIDS NEED MORE POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT! its as simple as that. times change. what may have worked for you a millennium ago, no longer works. gnash your gums in anger all you want…but times change. get over it.
bombmaniac while of course evey generation changes, don’t you think that perhaps in light of the increasing problems which are a subject of every jewish news publication or convention and include but are not limited to shidduch crisis, sholom bayis crisis, kids-at-risk, adults-at-risk, and drinking perhaps it is time to reexamine some of the “modern day” chinuch techniques that have become so in vogue over the last ten years?
bombmaniac (and what IS that username about, anyway?) , I come from the Olden Days, and life was much more plesant, less stressfull, and people were more normal with each other. There were no tznius problems, and even people who dressed inappropriately by the accepted tznius standards today (i.e. sleeveless dresses, shorts, uncovered hair in married women), still ACTED modestly and morally. People could safely send their kids out to play all day, knowing they would come back at suppertime. No one was doing drugs, and most kids who were brought up frum, stayed frum. Yes, we may have had fewer machines to do our work for us, and clearly there are many pluses to living nowadays, but please do not put down the past. We had a decent life then, and our kids were respectful and good kids, who said please and thank you, yes ma’am, and no sir and stood up when an adult walked into the room.
granted. but on the other hand…if you really want the old way…then lets give rebbis paddles…t5he point is, that as much as we would like things to stay the way they were, they will not and cannot. times change, and methods must be reconsidered. positive reinforcement is a very effective tool, rather than fear of reprisal. its the difference between serving hashem out of fear of burning in hell, and serving hashem for the reward of gan eden, and for the approval of hashem. a person living in fear is more likely to rebel. that being said, i am not advocating full latitude for students. there still has to be a strong presence of authority in the chinuch of children. its about striking a perfect balance. a rebbi should be friendly with his students in order to encourage a kesher, but at the same time making it clear that they are above their students in terms of respect and authority. in the old days students used to respect their rebbeim because they saw the greatness in them. today’s world is a much more indifferent world. and a much more “equal” world. today many students see it as “what makes you better than me??? after all im paying your salary!!!” because of this attitude, the methods of chinuch have had to change. it used o be if a rebbi hit a student he would feel bad about what he did and never do it again. today, he’d hit back, and call the cops. so in essence…all we HAVE today is positive reinforcement…
Bombmaniac much of what you write is correct but some of it is dangerous,
Ex, If a student looks at a Rebbi as “what makes you better then me, after all I’m paying your salary” all the positive reinforcement in the world will not help the Rebbi get through to the child. Period, that’s a guarantee.
In light of that it is incumbent upon a Rebbi to ensure he is someone worthy of respect and it is incumbent upon parents to ensure that their children are aware of the respect they must have for their Rabbeim.
As to the statement about Gan Eden and Gehenomm in my earlier post I already wrote about how this topic is written about extensivley by the Balei Mussar who are the first to talk about a need for a balance but a correct balance.
I would wish to reiterate that one would think it should be obvious that chinuch should be treated as college, meaning if one gos to school to become a doctor then the curriculum will be focused on preparing him to be a Doctor. Similarly chinuch is preparing a child to assume the obligations of being a Jew and therefore should focus on attaining such a goal.
This means that the focus of chinuch under no circumstances can be to ensure the child has a memorable childhood.
Please do not misconstrue what I have written to mean that I think a child should not have a pleasent childhood rather understand that I simply mean to say that one should ensure that the memorable childhood does not ensure a miserable adulthood.
I would also posit thst those who think that children of old were angels and if there parent hit them immiedietly felt bad about what they did and never do it again are severly naive, just ask your parents.
of course…my point was simply that the attitude back in the day was completely different…
Any student who has an “I’m paying your salary” attitude towards his rebbie, possibly has picked up said attitude from his parents. That kind of arrogance and chutzpah is learned behavior, in my experience.
positiveaynayim; Totally diagree with you on this. It doesn’t have to be a big prize,
If they earned that is. The generations are getting weaker and weaker,
we need to keep them pumped on yiddishkeit and good behavior.
If this means a chaep junky prize a day, so be it, it is a small price to pay,
and a unworthy gamble to take a tough stance on this imo.
true…but it is still a prevailing attitude
great thread. one of my true soap box topics. no time to write now, but am with the poster all the way.
that depends on your definition of every little thing. and yes, eventually the positive reinforcement has to change…a keychain whistle wont work when a kid is 17…but praise does.
Maybe the prizes and rewards are necessary, so that when the child grows up he’ll have good memories towards his school years and towards the religion he was taught about.
Positiveaymayim – BRAVO.
I have been reading this thread and fail to understand what is wrong to give a prize to help motivate and engender a student to feel good about their self worth and advance in their studies. Some students may need to have a booster (prize) shot to help them achieve this. This is true for children growing up in a dysfunctional family. The world is very stressful a dose of chesed goes a long way.
No one in thiks thread has questioned as to whether or not it is proper to give prizes to children, in fact when one considers the fact that the Rambam felt it neccessary to write a detailed guide as to what are the proper prizes to give children it would seem to me that it is quite foolish for one to question whether or not it is proper to give children prizes.
What has been questioned it is proper to give children prizes and howe often et cetera.
What is wrong is a) too MANY prizes are being given out fore extremely inconsequential things, so the impact of receiving a prize is greatly blunted b)the impact of oral praise is being lessened as a result. “Wonderful job!” is a powerful statement. So is “I am SO proud of you!” Not everyone is going to reward a person in a tangible way throughout life, and it is a good lesson to learn early on.
what’s wrong with excessive prizes is this; when the children of this generation will get older they will be concentrating on what’s in it for them, instead of intuitively feeling the need to do the right thing. what i have seen with kids these days is the more you give them the more they want(as is with most humans)their eye is on the prize, they do not feel accomplished . we are teaching them to perform tricks like we do with dogs who will get their treats after doing a good job. what’s wrong with teaching kids that they need to do whats right, period?lets teach kids to appreciate what they do have wether its family, health or even the privilage to be alive. im not saying that prizes should never be given.there are times for that(chanukah, birthdays and for major incentives like to get a child to stop sucking their thumb.)but in general i think children get too many prizes.
lets build a strong generation, not a needy one!
positiveaynayim; Nobody will argue with you about the importance of verbal
encouragement, proper chinuch, and letting the kids know there is more to
yiddishkeit then all this the prizes and rewards, however, speaking from experience with kids, i can tell you that a prize/reward sweetens the deal, and kids
always appreciate it if done in a proper way.
1) working hard, 2)getting rewarded, 3)feeling the prize was deserved.
It seem to me that you are not talking about prizes, rather about people who
don’t know how to be proper mechanchim. Just like discipline is very necessary
tool in Chinuch, however done the wrong way can be catastrophic.
We need to educate our Teachers. A freilichin Chanukah!
Perhaps a part of the problem touched upon by positivenayim is what seems to be a basic misundersantding that is somewhat prevalent of the words “self esteem” and “self worth”.
The term self worth mentioned by p”e is something deeply rooted in Chazal and is quite neccassary in proper chinuch. My understanding is that it connotates the basic need for a child to know the vast porential that is lies within him and there is something he and only he could accomplish “Bshvili Nivra HaOlam”.
Proper self worth is an obligation for when someone is truly aware of the amount he is capable of he must be aware that obligates him to fulfull his intrinsic capabilities.
Self Esteem, the way I understand it, is the opposite of this it stresses the inherent value of the individual regardless of what that person does. That is something which to the best of my knowledge has no basis in Chazal in fact Rav Shlomo Wolbe zt’l wrote a letter strongly condeming “self esteem” the way it is used in the modern world (see the kuntrus of Rav Shlomo Wolbe’s letters published in honor of his shloshim.
Self Worth teaches a child they are required to do as only they can, Self Esteem teaches they need not do for it makes no difference if they can.
dont bash self esteem…self esteem, and self worth (like everything else in this world) needs to be balanced. basically this concept is the concept of gadlus ha’adam. that a person has tremendous kochos, and can do great things, but he has to understand that he can do the…that he is good enough, and strong enough to do them. that is my understanding of the balance.
Imagine if a child gets a prize for sitting in his seat. And he gets a prize for doing his homework on time. And he gets a prize for not talking during class. And he gets a prize for sharing his toys at recess. And he gets a prize for davening. Which of those prizes means the most to him? He gets the same reward for davening as he does for sitting in his seat. And so far, none of those prizes were for anything outstanding. What lesson has he just learned?
Does anybody here have a job where you get a reward for showing up at work on time? For sitting at your desk when you’re supposed to? For doing your job?
Let’s reserve the prizes and awards for outstanding achievement. Not for doing what’s expected.
Bombmaniac, you ask not to bash self esteem and self worth but fail to define any distinctions between the two.
In addition I raised specific concerns with “self esteem” the question is if you disagree with what I wrote why will you noy address the specific charges.
self esteem is a feeling of pride in yourself. self worth is the feeling that you can gain respect from others. if you have self esteem without self worth, then you walk around being a self absorbed jerk. however, without some self esteem, you will never feel that you are worthy of the respect of others…you see? a balance
my point exactly…its all about striking a perfect balance.
I agree with haifagirl. I think kids today recieve prizes just for doing what they are supposed to be doing without prizes. Speaking about balance- everyone has a different idea of what the balance is with giving prizes to kids.
My idea of balancing prizes is – again like haifagirl pointed out-reserved for outstanding achievement,but it should be awarded according to the capabilties of each child.
Bombmaniac I fail to understand how you anwered the specific issues I raised perhaps you can attempt to answer them directly.
And positivenayim I fail to understand where you picked up the notion that self-esteem is interwined with emunah, especially considering the fact that when Rav Shlomo Wolbe discusses the concept of self esteem he points out that the only intrinsic “bitachon” (the hebrew word for self esteem is “bitachon atzmi”) he knows of with a source in the Torah is bitachon in Hakodosh Boruch Hu.
Again I would urge all those interested in this issue to take a look at Rav Wolbe’s lenthly letter on the topic which is printed in the kuntrus of his letters published in honor of his shloshim.
and here i was thinking i had made myself clear…i have no idea what you disnt understand about my answer…
Bombmaniac,
You stated that self-esteem is a felling of “pride” in yourself but did not explain pride for what,
Yo stated that self worth gives you a feeling that you can gain respect from others without detailing how,
Lastly you stated that self esteem without self worth leads to one feeling conceited without explaining why.
You stated that without self esteem you will never feel worthy of someone elses respet even though you stated it is self-worth which gives you an understanding that you can get other peoples respect and failed to explain how that makes sense.
ok…self esteem is your opinion of yourself, how you feel about yourself. a person who thinks they are worthless has low self esteem. a person who has confidence in himself has a normal or high self esteem. self worth is the feeling that your actions can and will get you respect from others. that being said…a person who feels very highly about himself, but has no feeling that his actions will influence other’s opinion of him…has no reason to ever do anything, because its not relevant…no matter what he does hes perfect in his own eyes. on the other hand, a person with no self esteem will not have any self worth because if he sees himself as a person not worth respecting he sees no reason why others would respect him, and therefore has no reason to care for his actions.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.