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“But there has not been a single instance of symptom relief to the victims, not from putting them in jail, not rendering them jobless and unemployable, not from money payouts”
TLIK,
Are you a victim of abuse? If not, don’t speak for them and don’t you dare call them bloodthirsty and greedy. I would imagine that many of them feel some measure of vindication and validation from seeing their abusers sentenced and the institutions that protected these monsters forced to do what they hate most, part with their almighty dollars. Many victims have huge financial burdens due to chronic health and employment issues resulting from their trauma. When they finally see justice after years of being ignored or worse by “the powers that be”, their healing can begin.
Perhaps you should express your righteous indignation against abusers and their enablers instead.
“I am directly challenging the notion that revenge has any clinical benefit to the victim”
I wish you would look into it because the data does not agree with you. But your mistake is calling it revenge (and attributing a desire for the money is just ludicrous). The therapeutic value is in confrontation and validation. So much so that therapy pushes for this to happen SO THAT healing can happen. According to many people who work with those who were molested, the molestation was only half the damage. The betrayal of the adults who didn’t protect them or protected the abuser was the nail in the coffin. To the extent, according to some of these therapists/counselor, that it can determine if the person can heal at all. This damage of being nullified and made into a virtual nothing, can sometimes only be healed by being acknowledged and supported. In real life. By the very people who killed them.
Which may help you understand why We are so protective of them when opportunity strikes.“We” have a Torah and Halacha. That is what guides us. That is all that guides us. The laws created by the gentiles is inapplicable in how we Jews govern ourselves in our interpersonal relations, including financial compensation and/or courts which render such judgements.
“We” know Joseph. You’ve said it over and over. But I don’t know who you’re talking to or how it relates to anything I said. (And I am not asking for clarification from you either, I was addressing someone else entirely)
AnonymousJew, the reason why they are suing in a secular court is that neither holds by any bet din other than his own. BTW, once to Chassidim came to a secular civil court. They got a frum judge who rebuked them and told them to go to a bet din.
“the reason why they are suing in a secular court is that neither holds by any bet din other than his own”
Avi K,
Can you name a Beis Din that has ever succeeded or even attempted to gain justice on behalf of an abuse victim?
Irrelevant. Seeking financial compensation through a non-Jewish court based on non-Jewish laws are strictly and severely prohibited by Jewish law.
Joseph, I think most victims of these kinds of abuse would be happy if the perps are in jail so they don’t have to be afraid of seeing them on the street. I don’t think it’s usually the money they’re after.
Of course, the money helps especially considering the expense of paying for therapy for years to work out the trauma.
I don’t think it’s usually the money they’re after.
This new law (the lookback window for cases that are many many decades old) is all about the money. And only about the money.
Joseph – dont be naive (or crass). Their filing has <em>little or nothing</em> to do with money.
(Advance notice to Neville and kluger- interjection said the victims aren’t in it for the money. Joseph rebuttal to that comment is that the law is only about money. Can’t you see how he manipulates the question to give an answer to stir controversy? Sorry, You cannot honestly read this and miss it )
“Their filing has little or nothing to do with money.”
Whose filing? Anyone filing a lawsuit under the look-back provision of the new law is *only* demanding money from the defendents. Nothing more and nothing less.
You can put your fishing pole away, im not biting.
Phil, I don’t know why you think calling people names will make people take you seriously (or why the mods allow it).
Also, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t criticize others for going to arkaos while defending it here.
DY,
I’m not defending going to secular court but I understand that abuse victims do so since no Beis Din has ever delivered justice to them. Those who criticize this act as being “all about the money” need to explain how the holy Teitelbaum brothers were allowed to take their money fight into secular court.
Philosopher:
Phil:
Syag:I happen to be quite up to date on the research, and I still challenge any of you to provide a single citation that supports your belief that these awards of money and punishments result in clinical benefit to the victim. You are correct in noting that the perps and those who protected them deserve punishment. I’m not crying a single tear for any of them. My focus is on what helps. Some of you might invoke to concept of deterrence. Don’t. It doesn’t work. Every one of these menuvalim was aware that if they got caught, they would be in a whale of trouble. None of these menuvalim considered the risks of consequences because they lack consequential thinking. That’s old news.
Precisely who determines what is an appropriate punishment? A jury of 12? I would absolutely obligate every dime that was expended for therapy to be reimbursed. There could also be calculations for other forms of loss, and those should be compensated in full. There was certainly severe damage done, and Torah recognizes the obligations to pay for damages. But how are these calculated? I would be open to proposals. These compensations are not punishments. Again, I don’t give a hoot if these perps and their protectors get punished. They deserve it. But is that in our hands to mete out?
The lawsuits permitted by this law are only about money. Nothing opened up to press criminal charges. And doing something to remove the perps from society is far more advantageous than the money business. It is useful to the victims to never have to encounter them again (although they could relocate to some obscure location). It is more important that they are kept away from society, not just the victim. Bizyonos is also not the answer, even though these menuvalim earned it.
I dont think I said anything about money. And i dont believe you are up to date with the research if you believe validation and confrontation have no clinical benefits.
Did you ever hear of aliza flatow? Do you think her parents were in it for the money as well?
Phil – stop. That isn’t why abuse victims go to court and justifying it IF that was the reason would be stupid.
DY – that’s not what hes doing. He’s asking Joseph why HE speaks out to the abuse victim but not to people he considers holy. He is questioning what seems to be a double standard.
I don’t see what the big deal is all of these lawsuits are for money as I previously stated most if not all yeshivas run on a deficit which is made up by fundraising. If the yeshiva is sued they should look at the evidence if they have a good case or it looks like it’s going to drag on for a long time so that the yeshiva will incur a large legal expense. The Yeshiva can declare bankruptcy and list the plaintiff as a creditor. After filing for bankruptcy file a copy with the judge hearing the case and the lawsuit is over. If the yeshiva has a good bankruptcy attorney the yeshiva will be absolved from any future suits for actions that took place prior to the filing. The Administrator can stop fundraising during this period and promise the staff and suppliers that if they are not paid out of the bankruptcy proceeds they will be paid afterwards by a fundraising appeal. The only thing to fear is the bad publicity, but as long as the parent body and the alumni are behind them there is nothing to worry about.
No one other than the abuser or those who failed to take proper action when they were notified are liable for any damages. So all they have to do is flee the jurisdiction move out of state either to NJ or CT for example, then this law doesn’t apply, I am not sure if bankruptcy absolves one from liability for a criminal act which is why I am advising them to move out of state
Syag,
Please don’t misunderstand me; I know several victims of abuse and realize that they go to secular court for justice and not merely for money.
As I posted above:
“I would imagine that many of them feel some measure of vindication and validation from seeing their abusers sentenced and the institutions that protected these monsters forced to do what they hate most, part with their almighty dollars. Many victims have huge financial burdens due to chronic health and employment issues resulting from their trauma. When they finally see justice after years of being ignored or worse by ‘the powers that be’, their healing can begin.”
Syag, then he should have said that.
I believe he did.
He clearly said it’s a connected question. It’s true that Joseph lives rent free in his head, but he reiterated it in a general context.
Phil, the two are separate cases, and even if in one the parties are wrong, that doesn’t justify other situations.
Clearly.
A yeshiva is supposed to be a Makom Torah and a place of Kedush and a Kiddish hashem.
A yeshiva that protected a child molestor and then uses things like bankruptcy, changing owners and other really Legal, but not proper ways not to pay their victims is not really a place of Kedusah and Kiddish Hashem. ISyag:
Validation and confrontation have their benefits. Money does not. And I am not protecting the pocketbooks of the perps or enablers. All I am saying is that there is a problem, but that this doesn’t solve it. Providing the victims with money may gratify them in other ways, not much different from a good steak dinner or their favorite ice cream. And their pleasure might be nice. But it won’t resolve their problem. Pleasure does not erase pain, and it is not the solution. As for the validation and confrontation piece, it would be at least as useful, if not much more, to have the ability to press criminal charges.
Stated before:
A yeshiva is supposed to be a Makom Torah and a place of Kedush and a Kiddish hashem.
A yeshiva that protected a child molestor and then uses things like bankruptcy, changing owners and other really Legal, but not proper ways not to pay their victims is not really a place of Kedusah and Kiddish Hashem.If so, why do some of them protect and retain know/proven abusers? They would protect their liability by first isolating them and firing them after it has been proven.
TLIK,
Of course it would be ideal if victims could bring criminal charges against their abusers even years later. In reality, there’s often no legal recourse to do so, such as when the statue of limitations has passed or if the abuser has died. In such cases, the only justice available to the victims is for the institutions that shielded their abusers to be financially penalized. It’s extremely condescending and uniformed for you to compare this to ice cream and steak.
using money to pay for some offense is an old idea. Its done all the time. If someone is killed for example you can sue the killer (Done famously with Ronald Goldman and OJ Simpson) , its not going to bring back the victim, but it does give at least a little something to the victims family
TLIK – Your confusion leaves me baffled. Steak and ice cream? I would expect a lot more respect for them from you. And with all you do know about people and the system, I can’t really fathom why you aren’t understanding this. I know I have said several times already that this has little to do with money. I would go so far as to say that this has *nothing* to do with money. It is about validation and confrontation. And they don’t just ‘have benefits’, they are the impetus for healing. ESPECIALLY since so much of the damage came from being lied to, denied, ignored, left unprotected and INvalidated. They were told by people close to them that letting adults close to them destroy them repeatedly was either a myth, or their own problem. Do you really not get what the point of this is?
Perhaps this will help give clarity – My friend became really sick and while unconscious suffered the amputation of both legs. There were many emergency decisions made and he just wanted to know what happened while he was unable to advocate for himself. Because nobody wanted to “throw anyone under the bus” the health care team was not always forthcoming. Even tho there was NO suspicion of negligence, he sued the hospital (or doctors perhaps) just so he could get the whole story, the truth, the facts. Period. He had to sue them for damages, knowing he might not get any because there was no negligence, because that became the ONLY means to get the facts, the truth, the players and the backstory. Does that help?
Syag:
I am actually an avid supporter of victims (or survivors), and I have worked with many of them for many years in a variety of capacities. This is besides for quite a few years of formal study of the field. I made simple statement. Pleasure does not counteract pain. No, I was not minimizing the magnitude of gratification a victim might get from watching his perpetrator get a long prison sentence or other punishments. All I said was that this is not the formula to resolve the problem. Yes, there should be confrontation. Yes, the victim should experience some form of closure to put the trauma into a place in history that no longer affects his life. The invalidation that has been so rampant is horrible, and this must change drastically (it has begun to change, but that fails to help the one who was victimized and invalidated). I have supported personal confrontations with the asking of mechila, providing both parties were ready for that. As useful as one would hope this is, it accomplishes just a little to aid in the healing. These type meetings are rare, mostly because either the victim or the perp is unready for it, and conducting a charade is futile, and sometimes a repeat form of abuse. And I still would push for financial compensation. All that troubles me is the circus of outrageous monetary awards that will only bankrupt yeshivos (for actions that predate the involvement of the current administrations and faculties) and still not accomplish healing for the victims.
Can someone please explain one thing to me here?
Let’s say this is “all about money “(syag stay calm I’m not saying it is) ,what’s wrong?
Someone molested a kid. Why shouldn’t that kid get a few million dollars from the sicko?
He got his pleasure now it’s the kids turn.
He ruined the kids life, so who cares if the financial burden ruins his.
I don’t know what to say about the sickos family also getting ruined if they were unaware of the abuse.
I’m just asking for clarity on this one point.
Why the argument as to whether it’s for money or not.
Who cares???
Let it be for money.
What’s the issue.KlugerYid:
1. The plaintiff victims are suing the institutions, i.e. the yeshivos, not the individual abusers. There’s no big money to get from the individual abuser and no lawyer will waste his time suing an abuser who won’t be able to pay the judgement anyways. The big money is at the institutions. So they’ll sue the school into bankruptcy. For something that allegedly happened 40 years ago under a different administration, faculty and student body. And the victims will be the kinderlach in the school today who will lose their school.
2. It is assur to sue in arkois.
klugeryid, I agree with you. A victim should be able to get monetary compensation. I just don’t agree with upping the age that one can sue to 55 as I believe this law will now be abused to large extent since no proof can nor needs to be bought in the majority of cases.
I.also agree with the little I know that there will be a “circus of monetary awards” that will bankrupt yeshivas (and institutions) for actions of PREVIOUS administrations.
I am not certain but am pretty sure the suit is not against institutions that have all new administrations. I am fairly certain it is make believe information joseph and some others are using to sway people wrongly. Suing in court without a psak is assur. So is lying.
“I am not certain but am pretty sure the suit is not against institutions that have all new administrations.”
Syag, you are factually and legally incorrect. New administration or not has absolutely no bearing on the ability for the institution to be sued under the new law. Whether it allegedly occurred 60 years ago, 40 years ago or 10 years ago.
Syag, how can there be the same administrations as when the alleged abuse went on 30, 45 or even more years earlier?!
Joe- as i said,i have not read the text but it was explained to me differently.
I am pretty sure you are incorrect based on what i read and heard but will ask someone who knows the law.
Also, if an institution is built on money the donors earned in a non kosher way, the building will not endure. I even heard someone say that that also explains why our school systems are in such dissarray. Hashem asks us to build our homes and businesses with honesty and yashrus . If we don’t, we pay the price eventually, and i don’t see Him holding of any statute of limitations. Build on quicksand – sink.Syag, Hashem’s law is that proof must be bought into court for another person to be found guilty.
The problem in many of our communities is that in some instances of abuse H”y ( b”H there are not many instances and most Rabbonim are supportive of the victim if it c”v does happen) the abusers are generally known to the public or Rabbonim as they are sick individuals who are generally repeat offenders. But some Rabbonim protect them because of the perps families that they don’t want to destroy and with the hope that they will be rehabilitated will the help of therapy. The trauma of the victims are conveniently forgotten and ignored.
However, there are instances where people were wrongly accused of abuse. This is a very sensitive topic of dinai nefashos and is not black and white.
But what is black and white that it’s evil is this new law which will create, as the little I know aptly put it “a circus of monetary awards”. Crooks don’t need to bring proof, just a story that will move social warrior judges to tears.
“But what is black and white that it’s evil is this new law ”
are you aware of what the phrase ‘black and white’ means?
“However, there are instances where people were wrongly accused of abuse. This is a very sensitive topic of dinai nefashos”
Excellent point. This is a *fact* that the vast majority of abuse “advocates” refuse to acknowledge and generally are in complete denial about.
“2. It is assur to sue in arkois”
Unless you’re a Rebbe and your last name is Teitelbaum, right?
the only reason you think people are in denial of things is because you ignore them when they speak, pull out what works for you, or just manipulate the comments to be similar enough to what they said to fool people (as with the above case). Iv’e pointed it out on many of those occassions with you feigning deafness to the written word in front of you. (Or with you thinking my critique of you and your skewed view is somehow a critique on yiddishkeit – when in fact there is very little overlap between the two).
Joseph:
I have also argued the point about false accusations. If you have ever debated with the “advocates”, you have certainly found them passionate about their position. I have struggled with their focus on the prosecution of those accused, noting that they have publicized things and destroyed lives of innocent people, long before there was any form of process to ascertain responsibility or guilt. But this passion exacts a huge cost. It blinds to fact and truth, and it “justifies” any collateral damage that results from the process. I found the advocates need only a name to use as their banner, with zero regard for unproven accusations. When I state this, their passion turns into blind rage. “No one makes false accusations!” Tell that to Brett Kavanaugh.
When I say to take whatever measures are necessary to protect children, they retort that I must adopt their approach to pursue relentlessly the accused to destroy them. When I tell them that a specific incident, while a serious problem, was isolated, they pressure me to insist that the accused is a serial molester, and that my position suggests that I don’t care about kids. Yet, these “advocates” refused to participate in any of the prevention efforts launched by several organizations, as it did not jive with their agenda.
The current law invites false accusations. It comes in a climate that anyone who can produce a story will be rewarded, without a scintilla of evidence beyond their report. After all, who can find evidence from 30 years ago. It’s free money. I bet there are many who have resentments against their yeshivos (and I do not disbelieve such resentments). Now there is an avenue for retribution, where the burden of proof is essentially lifted. It risks becoming, as I labeled it in an earlier comment, a “circus of monetary awards”.
So the advocates had a point, which was really tiny, that the percentage of false accusations was rather small. I still feel that a burden of proof was necessary. And to buy into the utter stupidity of the @metoo mentality is a stoop to the intellect level of a tree stump. But with the ancient stuff rising, the invitation to fabricate is powerful, and potentially destructive. As much as the dishonesty is unacceptable, the fact that it will eventually cost the believability of true victims is a real disaster.
And you are spot on labeling this dinei nefashos.
TLIK –
” But this passion exacts a huge cost. It blinds to fact and truth, and it “justifies” any collateral damage that results from the process.”What I find interesting about this line of yours is that it is *exactly* how I have for years described the attitude/expression of those who deny the existence of molestation among us. I hope that gives you some insight into the clear fact that both sides have their passion and their blind spots. But the biggest pela is that there should be any ‘sides’ at all.
Syag:
I am with you about the denial that has existed for decades about the problem. The reason we have the challenge that confronts us all today, with cases for which the statute of limitations expired long ago is because the behavior was present then. No, it was probably not rampant or epidemic, as many of the fanatics claim, but even a single instance is one too many. The denial was tragic, and the protection of the abusers was also tragic. The pendulum belongs somewhere in the middle, and in neither of the extremes.
AJ – agreed, and I tried that as well but they don’t seem able to hear it. I think it works better (passion and blindspot and all) to pretend that it will just work that way.
The big fat joke of it is that I haven’t even decided my opinion of the law because I haven’t read into it yet. I’m only pushing back on the ignorant comments. Anyone else out there willing to admit they don’t *really* know enough to form an opinion but just can’t bear to support outing molesters? Anyone willing to wait till they’re well versed in the details of something before speaking out for or against it?
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