Child Abuse

I don’t really know what Rabbi Zwiebel can add to this topic as it contains many issues that involve Halacha and must be addressed by Gedolei Poskim.

If it is the secular viewpoint that is being discussed. My personal feelings are that whatever measures secular authorities have taken to protect children are obviously an abject failure as the secular society is literally falling apart faster the ever.

As such I really do not care for their opinions what so ever

I would never moser someone without asking a rav anyway.

I once masered someone. He is a scam artist who rips off frum jews in NY. I reported him to the police after asking a very big posek.

(The police refused to take a report even. Classic NYPD).

does he even understand the concept of a mandated reporter?

According to google translate, it is in yiddish: ?????????? ??????????

Charliehall,

In response to your comment, You live in the US and speak English. Do you even know of the concepts of Torah and Halacha? Your comments indicate that they are very foreign ideas to you.

But to quote his surgeon, the chief of Cardio Surgery at the Cleveland Clinic, it is amazing how astute and aware of current issues the Rabbi is. And this was after meeting with R Elyashiv.

aries2756:

Now at last I see the issue you were so agitated about. I generally steer clear of politics, my little say would have absolutely no effect whatsoever, hence my mixing in would be totally loshon hara, richilus, machlokes, onaas devarim and a host of other cute little averos.

But maybe in this instance, it would be ????, worthwhile to find out what daas Torah is first, before jumping to action. – my very humblekite.

Regardng Mandating Reporting Laws.

A cursory google search on Mandated Reporting laws shows that it is at the very least a highly contoversial law. There is widespread evidence that far from even coming close to solving the issue Mandated Reporting Lawsmade the issue severly worse wherever they were introduced.

Those who are vocal in their opposition to these Laws include former CPS officials and family rights advocates.

After spending some time looking into these laws when the issue of the Markey Bill came up I was forced to conclude that it was yet another liberal experiment gone bad.

Then again considering the fact that the society that the orthodox ewish world has a far better track record of producing normal, healthy and productive adults then the secular world which has a culture that is in complete disarray, I truly havve learnt that in most instances the best advice is to do the opposite of whatever is in style by the secularists.

Their have been numerous proven cases of false accusations by both children and adults.

Regarding mandatory reporting laws:

I have many a friend who never met his grandfather because the “mandatory reporters” of the day, called the Yevsektzia, turned their grandfathers in for crimes like baking matzos.

There was also a story of a “mandatory reporter” in Europe or Canada who was either an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. He turned in a frum couple after their child fell and broke an arm or a leg. He ruined the family, and only years later were they cleared.

On the other hand, we need to deal with the Mondrowitzes and Kolkos very decisively. But even when we do, as was the case with one monster turned in by a principal of a moisad in California, the justice system fails us and they’re let out after short sentences.

Happiest, it means if you know for sure. Anyone that was molested knows for sure without a doubt.

Sorry Aries2756 but Raglayim L’davar does not mean that one most know for sure rather the closest translation that could be applied is probable suspicion and even that is not wholly accurate as many other things factor in.

And yes of course someone who was actually molested knows for sure however it is the Beis Din that is Matir him to be Moiser that must be convinced there is raglayim ludvur as in their eyes both the accused and accuser are “reshaim”.

aries-

I’m also very passionate about some things and I know the feeling, but please, for your sake, try to calm down. Easier said than done, I know.

*kapusta*

aries:

OK, I did research. Where does you ‘Mommy’ get into the picture? But let me tell you a story of my ‘Tatty’.

My father shlit”a was a devoted and sought after rebbe, in a well established yeshiva. He must have had hundreds of talmidim if not more, throughout his career. His warmth, geshmack, ehrlichkeit were unparalleled.

At one point during this wonderful period, he noticed a tangible coolness and a distancing from the principal and administrators. He weathered it out and finished the year successfully.

Many years later he stopped being a rebbe, and became a noted askan. At one point he was attending some sort of simcha, and was asked to speak. At the close of the simcha, the Rav present called my father aside and spoke to him…

It was many years ago, he was a boy in Yeshiva, he (father) was his rebbe. His best friend was in the other (parallel) class, and he really wanted to change to the other one. So he made up this story that his rebbe (father) potched him hard. (In all the years, hundreds of talmidim, no one can remember my father potching once! He had and has a different way of working.) That he told his father, and his father, being some big-wig, made a big tumult… came down to yeshiva… Now, grown up (and a Rav) he asks mechila.

So Aries. This boy has ‘raglaim ledavar’, he ‘knows’, he ‘felt’. There’s no need for daas Torah… A kid says, run to police. Sorry, this site is called Yeshivaworld, Torah ideals should prevail. Now if there’s another credibly Daas Torah backing you, well, that’s a different story. But then again, we’re not following our own baseless sechel, we submit to daas Torah. Naaseh V’nishma, we will do whatever HaShem says to do.

no but i happy that the jews are talking about this!

There was a recent case (about a year or so ago) in Maryland, near Washington, of a teenager accusing her school sports coach of abuse. The DA prosecuted him and when it turned out that the girl had an ulterior motive where she was trying to hit at the coach and the accusation was a complete fabrication, the jury acquitted the coach.

The acquittal and proof of innocence unfortunately only came after the coach lost his job, reputation, and became known in the community as an abuser. Many times they are actually convicted and the innocence of the accused only comes out later after he is in prison for some time. In this case the only reason they were able to convince the jury to acquit, was because the girl confided in someone that she made up the story.

Baruch Hashem Agudas Yisroel has consistently maintained, in the past and present, its position based on the Moetzei Gedolei HaTorah and Rav Elyashev’s psak din that it is required to ask a posek before ever c”v massering to the authorities. Precisely because of all the false accusations that fly around. (It’s similar to when parents divorce and one r”l falsely accuses in court the other spouse of abuse.)

a mamin: Thank you for your kind words. I didn’t know what I did to be SO ridiculed and offended. Not that I really stated here anything substantial. But now I’ll respectfully keep my distance.

Aries2756

Why do you insist on misqoutig sources? the source of 400 children per an abuser is a non-ewish orginazation that is dedicated towards fighting abuse due to Yeshiva World policy I cannot list the address however I can list the real numbers.

70% of child molestors have between 1 and nine victims r”l.

20% have between 10 to 40 victims r”l

The remaining 10 percent are considered to be “serial offendors” and they may have as many as 400 victims in their lifetime.

These are the real numbers check’m up.

Now for those who wish to know some further details according to a study done by child psychologist Wade F. Horn 9% of all child abuse is done by the mothers live in boyfriend. A further 12% is done by stepfathers.

Furthermore according to Government Reports a child living with both biological parents is statistically Eight Times less likely to be abused then a child living without both biological parents.

Oh and that favorite statistic of Advocates that 20% of children will be abused.

Lets break it down ust a drop.

There are no seperate stats for molestation the basis for this claim is the fact that the year before this number surfaced Reports were that there were 3.2 million cases of abuse reported in the U.S.A.

However a closer look at these stats are somewhat startiling

Roughly One Third of these cases were unable to be substantiated at all, of the remaing two thirds that CPS considered valid only 25% were found out to be real cases of abuse. Thats right only 25% percent meaning 3 out of 4 were not.

What was the most prevalent form of abuse?

Emotional Abusewhich were approx. 59% of the allegations

Only 10.8% were allegations of sexual abuse.

A further interesting note is that approx. 1 out Five cases of child abuse originated from the internet!

Again Aries all thaese stats are real and availible to anyone willing to look around a drop online.

Ben levi, I will address you first. Because I have the facts which you don’t AND we don’t have statistics from FRUM organizations that are accurate because “Frum people don’t report”. How many times does this have to be said. Anyone can google the statistics that I myself received on a visit to Albany. And am NOT going to argue this point any further. I know what I am talking about. I am involved in the issue and you have NOT claimed that you are. So no matter what you say here, your knowledge and experience in this issue just does not compare. I know that you mean well, i honestly do, but you are just plain not seeing the full picture and therefor I have no intention of arguing the points any further. There is no point. You will all choose to believe what you choose to believe no matter what I say or others say or even what the Agudah and R’ Eliyashuv has said. I explained it further but unfortunately it wasn’t posted and there is no point in repeating it over and over again. I gave the facts. I can’t force feed them to you, no can I open your eyes and open your brains for you neither. I just pray that you don’t have to find these things out for yourself personally.

The only other thing that I would suggest is that you don’t close yourselves up so tightly and invite some victim/survivors into your lives. Listen to their side of the story. Listen how their lives were destroyed. Look at someone who’s life could have been saved had someone had the seichel to protect them appropriately.

A child’s assertion of abuse, especially if the same thing has been reported by a few children, is not merely an allegation.

Depending on the circumstances (do they know each other or have someone in common to coach them), multiple accusations might very well be raglayim l’davar.

I’m not sure what your question to me is – whether or not something is raglayim l’davar is obviously a halachic shaila and must be asked to a posek. Otherwise, no matter what the percentage of false accusations is, there would certainly be many more if every child was always believed with no other evidence.

You analogy to Leiby Kletzky a”h is beyond me.

farrockaway; I find the assertion that “when kids say abuse occured they are right 95% of the time to be quite interesting.

The following is a qoute from the American Academy of Experts in traumatic Stress”

“An attempt to make up for decades of ignorance of childrens stories of abuse led to an unfettered and unaxamined acceptance of every childs story as true. By the close of the 1980’s the negative repercussions of this attitude were obvious.

Now infamous cases such as California vs Buckley (the McMartin Preschool case, 1990) New Jersey vs Michaels (1993) highlight the trauna and tragedy that can and do result from childrens stories being uncritically accepted as valid. The State of Montana saw its own version in Montana vs Harts (1993).

For a relativley brief period of time, the arguement seemed to revolve around whether children would deliberetley lie about s. abuse. An abundance of research has now disassembled the question when stated this way.

It has been learnt and amply documented that the issue of truth when applied to childrens statements is multi dimensional.

The focus on how childrens statements might differ from adults statements has compelled a scientific return to the understanding of child development in moral, cognitive,emotional, and social spheres.

Many svolumes have recently appeared on the suggestibility of children the creation of false or distorted memories motivation and other aspects of truth telling all of which attempt to explain why some childrens reports of s. abuse are not true even though the the child may appear sincere”.

I am sorry but the research on the topic gives lie to your assertion.

I might add, in light of the research currently availible one stands in awe of the wisdom of the Torah in prohibiting the acceptence of a childs testimony in court.

You should look-up “induced memories”. Also, look at the following articles from the Wall Street Journal:

Wall Street Journal 8/24/99:

…

That the Amiraults’ trials were held amid a wave of child-abuse prosecutions — a time when it would have taken a rare juror to resist the reigning imperative to “believe the children,” the children who had so bravely stepped up to the witness stand, and “children don’t lie” — evidently did not enter into the justices’ concerns. Neither, apparently, did all the available evidence that the investigative tactics employed in the Amiraults’ prosecution drove the children to extremes of fantasy, charges of marauding robots, murdered squirrels, attack by butcher knife — none of which seem to have raised any questions about the credibility of the child witnesses. For it was understood, thanks to the strange new legal standards in evidence in American courtrooms during the great mass-abuse trials pitting toddlers against the accused — most of them nursery school teachers — that the jury should feel free to disregard any parts of the witnesses’ testimony that were clearly incredible, the witnesses being children.

In such a time and atmosphere, in courtrooms where such standards for witness credibility prevailed and jurors were repeatedly reminded by the prosecutors of how much courage it had taken for these children to come forward, jurors voted to believe the children. In such ways did the false facts delivered by child witnesses result in convictions of the innocent, a matter with which the justices — engaged with their higher duty to the doctrine of finality — were not disposed to concern themselves.+

Across the nation courts have taken account of these matters. Kelly Michaels was freed from prison in New Jersey after serving five years, her conviction reversed. A federal courts freed Grant Snowden, the target of State Attorney Janet Reno prosecutions, after he served 11 years. And in Massachusetts, lower ourts freed Cheryl Amirault and her mother, Violet (who died after release).

Wall Street Journal 4/30/04:

…

Today he leaves prison, after serving 18 years on phony charges.

At 10 o’clock this morning, Gerald Amirault will walk out of his Massachusetts jail, a free man.

It is a joyous day for this prisoner, behind bars for 18 years after his 1986 conviction on charges of child sex abuse based on fantastical testimony dragged from pre-schoolers. Gerald’s mother Violet and his sister Cheryl served eight years before their convictions were overturned in 1995.

Our system isn’t always immune to destructive pressures, and the child-abuse prosecutions of the 1980s were one such instance. Mr. Amirault’s prosecution was driven by the passions of the times — in this case, the belief that child predators lurked everywhere and that the child “victims” must be believed at all costs.

Along the way, the law was stood on its head. The rules of evidence were changed to accommodate the prosecution; the burden of proof was put on the accused. Four- and five-year-olds were coached to say what adults wanted to hear. All this was done in the name of virtue, with the result being the kind of catastrophic miscarriage of justice we saw in Mr. Amirault’s case. There never was any truth to the charges brought against him. Nor was there anything that would, in saner times, have passed for evidence in an American courtroom.

…

aries;

The one statistic you attemtpted to qoute was shown to be twisted and flat our untrue.

multiple posters have pointed out real factual problems with your approach.

Why is it that you refuse to ansewer them?

Yes I know you will attack me.

Thats my point while I and other posters have brought up real substantive issues and shied away from attacking you have refused to follow suit.

I would think that the difference in approach says it all.