Chassidus

Joseph, that quote was in response to you saying “no one will be able to name any mainstream, semi-meainstream or even semi-semi-mainstream name that has any issue with” doing melachah after shkiya. Well, that’s simply not true. The Biur Halacha, which is quite a mainstream staple of psak, does indeed take issue with this.

no serious rabbi holds that someone paskening or holding by the R”T’s zmanim is a shaigets or even has no halachic grounds to stand on.

You don’t think “issur gemur… vi’chas vi’shaom lihukel ba’zeh” means “no halachic ground to stand on”?

Correct. Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos?

Right. The quoted Biur Halacha refers to shkiah without specifying when shkiah is. That’s the contention by the R”T. R”T holds shkiah itself is later, something the CC doesn’t take exception to.

There was also the Tzimtzum issue which I don’t think has been discussed here.

@gavra_at_work Did I say that was all?

Joseph:

The quoted Biur Halacha refers to shkiah without specifying when shkiah is. That’s the contention by the R”T. R”T holds shkiah itself is later, something the CC doesn’t take exception to.

I quote the actual B”H, for the third time:

“…mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu, ho issur gemur shelo laasos melacha, vi’chas vi’shaom lihukel ba’zeh, di’ho safek issur skilah…”

“… right after the beginning of shkiyah, which is from the time that the sun is hidden from our eyes, there is an absolute prohibition to not do melacha, and heaven forbid to be lenient in this, for it is a possible prohibition punishable by stoning…”

Did you even read it?

I’ll give it a shot….

Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos?

Maybe (but only maybe). The CC also held the same for the Gaon, who (might have) done melocha 13.5 (IIRC) minutes after the sun is no longer visible (early shkiyah). Therefore, the CC recommends that one be Machmir for both shittos. That is not to say that holding of either shittah makes one “a shaigets or even has no halachic grounds to stand on”. In fact, there are quite a few practical Halachic Nafkei Mina during the “in-between” times that the CC would agree to since the Z’man is only a Safek.

That being said, the Biur Halacha does say one should keep “early” shkiyah, and is quite explicit about it.

gavra, actually large portions hold R”T’s shitta kipshuta. Of those, most (but not all) use the other (non-R”T) shittas l’chumra on top of R”T. But even those that add the other shittas l’chumra, essentially hold R”T’s zman is their shitta per se.

gavra, the difference I can see is that if they hold R”T l’halacha and take the Gra as an added chumra, m’ikur hadin they’re only bound to their shitta (i.e. the R”T). As a practical matter they’ll probably always use the Gra as a chumra. But bshas hadchak they might rely on the R”T, without using the Gra’s zman l’chumra, in case of a bona fide emergency as their adherence to the Gra’s zman was only mekabel as a chumra and not as psak halacha. BTW, this same point would apply in reverse for those who accept the Gra l’halacha and take on the R”T l’chumra.

Does anyone consider those who [start and] end Shabbos early to be a Mechallel Shabbos because he doesn’t wait for the R”T’s zman for Shabbos to end? In that case we have lots of non-Shomer Shabbos folks davening in many non-chasidic shuls. There’s another queston for mw13: Are those ending Shabbos before the R”T zman doing the same as those starting Shabbos after the Gra’s zman.

As far those “(but not all)” who don’t even take the Gra l’chumra, and stick only to R”T kipshuta, I’m not sure how’d they’d answer your milah question. But if they rigidly followed the R”T on the zmanim, they’d be halachicly consistent. I think the R”T himself, and his kehila, would have the bris on Shabbos.

R”T is not chopped liver. And at the end of the day, members of kehilos who strictly follow R”T kipshuta, and have a mesora of following the halacha as such going back to their kehilos in Europe, have solid halachic ground to do so. Even if the M”B disagrees.

Joseph:

The prohibition that melacha is forbidden after shkiya is undisputed. The machlokes is over when shkiya is. Rabbeinu Tam has a shitta that is held by large portions of Klal Yisroel. The reason “it is a possible prohibition punishable by stoning” (di’ho safek issur skilah) is due to the uncertainty whether Shabbos starts at shkiya or at tzeis. (And since it is uncertain, everyone agrees we must start Shabbos at shkiya, but not all poskim agree when shkiya is.)

You have clearly never read the Buir Halacha you are attempting to interpret. The Biur Halacha goes through the sugya, starting with the stira in the Gemora, then Rabbeinu Tam’s answer, then the answer of R’ Shiraya Goan, R’ Hai Gaon, Rashi, the Rif, and the Rambam. According to R”T, shkiya starts 4 mil (72 min) after the sun sets and is no longer in view. According to all those who argue, shkiya starts immediately after the sun is no longer in view. So when the B”H says “…mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu…” he is clearly to referring to the shittah of the Gaonim and rov Rishonim, who hold shkiya starts from when the sun is no longer in view.

But in case that isn’t enough of a proof for you, let me quote you how the B”H begins the sentence:

“Vi’henay li’maaseh, bi’vaday tzurich li’zuher ki’daas ha’Gra vi’harbaih min haRishonim vihaPoskim hanal di’mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu, ho issur gemur shelo laasos melacha, vi’chas vi’shaom li’hukel ba’zeh, di’ho safek issur skilah…”

But don’t take my word for it; crack open a Mishnah Berurah and check it out yourself.

(Btw, I’m makpid for the shittah of R”T myself.)

Do you think the CC held that Rabbeinu Tam and his kehilla were mechallel Shabbos?

First of all, the Chofetz Chaim didn’t make this shittah up. R’ Shiraya Goan, R’ Hai Gaon, Rashi, the Rif, and the Rambam did. The B”H is simply paskening like the majority. So your question really is, did all those Gaonim and Rishonim hold about R”T and his kehillah.

Secondly, I’m not sure why you suddenly decided to make this an issue here.

The Chazon Ish held one may not open bottle caps on Shabbos. R’ Moshe allowed it. R’ Moshe held one may not use a “shabbos clock” on shabbos; the Chazon Ish allowed it.

Did the Chazon Ish and R’ Moshe each hold that the other was mechallel Shabbos?

Or going back a little bit further, did Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel each hold that the other was “shkotzim” or “chopped liver”?

And most importantly, what difference does it make in this point in history?? Shouldn’t we be focusing on figuring out what the Halacha is today, not bizarrely trying to figure out what names we think the Gedolim of the past would have called each other, if they had acted like some of us do today?

“…what names we think the Gedolim of

the past would have called each other…”

I’m pretty sure we have records in many

cases of what they did call each other.

DY: If you have such a question you should ask you rabbi. If you are a Rabbi, don’t pasken based on internet info.

So I’ll disregard that statement, since it’s from the internet, and keep paskening from random internet sites.

(I wasn’t asking a question, just pointing out a current nafka mina.)

Seems like that means Chassidim and Misnagdim can’t mix. Just like Bais Hillel and Bais Shamei. But “kol machlokes Shehi L’Shem Shamayim Sofa L’hiskayem”. That means everyone keeps their own. (meaning choosing a mahalach and sticking to it).

Joseph – good point.

G@W