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Todays Chassidus really has very little in common with the Chassidus of the baal Shem tov, only Brezlov and maybe Chabad are close
Early chassidim
His taaina was against specific early chassidim doing specific actions he deemed incorrect. It wasn’t against all actions of all chassidim even of that time.
No, I knew what it referred to, but the first statement says D’veykus is inherently better, and the second says Torah is, but isn’t practical.
DaMoshe, that made no sense.
Wait… so you mean to say that Chassidim aren’t following a real Mesorah?
Define “real”. It certainly is more “real” (as in old) than formalized “Torah Im Derech Eretz” or “daven with a Borsalino without a minyan”.
DaMoshe,
Avram in MD: Did you really need to ask?
Yes, because two wrongs don’t make a right.
DaMoshe
Member
Why would someone want to learn VaYoel Moshe? According to the Gra, chassidus is apikorsis! Why would I want to read the works of someone the Gra described as an apikores?
POSTED 35 MINUTES AGO #
DaasYochid
a singular mind
Why do you keep on erroneously insisting that the Gra’s objection to early Chassidim would hold true for later Chassidim?
POSTED 22 MINUTES AGO # EDIT
DaMoshe
Member
DaasYochid: Don’t chassidim claim they are following in the derech of the Besht?
POSTED 20 MINUTES AGO #
I don’t know that they admit to any of your claims.
What I do know is that today, even the staunchest Litvaks do not claim that Chassidim are apikorsim.
DY: That is not true. I have met major Rabbonim who, though they don’t publicly say it, won’t have Chassidish wine or Shechitah. Some of the names might shock you, but it’s not really relevant. There are descendants and Talmidim (and descendants of Talmidim) of the Gra who still hold it Shtark. They are few, but they definitely still exist.
DaMoshe:
The Gra said that early chassidim were apikorsim!
Source?
And precisely which belief of theirs is theirs could be apikursos? Davening late? Speaking yiddish? Wearing a fur hat?
And as history NOW records, they were mistaken. Period.
DaMoshe, Sam, I’ve never heard it from anyone normal. You can always find crazies.
The M”B quotes “HagRaz” all the time, and I often hear Litvishe R”Y quoting Chassidishe seforim.
I suppose those Litvaks you’re referring to make their own wine and grape juice.
mw13: One of the main Taanos on early Chassidim that many thought messed with Ikkarei Emunah was Aveirah Lishmah.
LF: You’re making DM’s point. It’s not a serious attack on Chassidus. He’s proving the opposite. He’s showing that just because there were legitimate attacks by legitimate Gedolei Torah on early Chassidus doesn’t change how Chassidus is accepted today. He’s implying that the same logic should be applied in the “MO” thread.
DY: If I ever meet you, I’ll mention names. I won’t say anything publicly. I don’t know how private these Rabbonim are in their Hisnagdus, but they exist.
One of the main Taanos on early Chassidim that many thought messed with Ikkarei Emunah was Aveirah Lishmah.
How about the role of the rebbe?
He’s showing that just because there were legitimate attacks by legitimate Gedolei Torah on early Chassidus doesn’t change how Chassidus is accepted today. He’s implying that the same logic should be applied in the “MO” thread.
What’s the difference between early MO and current MO?
If I ever meet you
Hmmm… When’s this year’s SOY seforim sale?
DY: February, like it always is. I don’t know if I’ll be stopping by, though.
Sam: Very, very cute.
One is in the direction of attaining Shleimus, gadlus, dveikus, comming closer to HaShem. As they originally coined the word Chossid, something extra, and additional something. One movement who produced giants, Ba’alei Ruach haKodesh, b’nei aliyah, ovdim, shleimim.
And the other is a breakaway, downward slope. And there’s NO DENYING THAT! Downward indeed.
Read Rabbi Miller’s ??”? very numerous works about this topic. Very convincing, easy to read. He, if anyone, had Sechel haYashar (not that he needed little me’s say so). And he’s had first hand knowledge of anything he tackled. And he wasn’t afraid to state it.
I don’t want to malign, disparage, put down etc. people or communities, but as a DERECH it’s TOTALLY WRONG. Yiddishkite is not about a contest to see how little one can hold and still be called a Jew (at heart). YiddishKite is about coming CLOSER to HaShem. Closer and closer.
Please have an Uplifting Shabbos.
Sam, then I guess I won’t have to bring bodyguards.
LF: Well, most “MO” people think that “Modern Orthodoxy” is about coming closer to HKBH also, so I’m glad we’re in agreement. Have a good Shabbos. 🙂
Read a Student’s Obligation Chovas Ha Talmidim if you want to know what it is about
Sam, no serious or half serious rabbi today has any qualms with chasidish wine. There are a few quacks but besides being very few and virtually unknown quantities, no one takes them seriously as rabbis.
Even the original cherem was applied to specific subset of people and not to every chosid in the world.
Damoshe: I don’t know what early chasidim taught I know what they wrote, and in writing at least, they all advocates Torah study.
There is an argument to say that the Gra was fed lies about Chasidus and that his opposition was based on not really knowing what Chasidus was. But my chasidic mesorah has taught me to be extremely careful when talking about someone as great as the Gra so I won’t go down road.
Unlike another faction whose members(read rabbis) take great liberties when discussing rishonim, achronim and even tanoim and amoraim.
DaMoshe- you are obviously quite confused about a lot of stuff. Firsty, you don’t know what chassidim held. Secondly, you don’t know what the Gra held. Thirdly, you don’t understand the machlokes. If you want to acutally understand the machlokes listen to this shiur The Chasidus of the Baal Shemtov and The Opposition of The GRA. you can search for it in google. its by rav yaakov shapiro.
Damoshe: The facts you quote about chassidus are exaggerations, half truths and outright lies (some of which were actually invented by the maskilim).
Reading any chasidic Seder would clarify these issues but of course you can’t do that since you consider them to be apikorsus. And so you remain ignorant of the true facts.
I rest my case.
Sam2:
mw13: One of the main Taanos on early Chassidim that many thought messed with Ikkarei Emunah was Aveirah Lishmah.
How would the Chassidish position on aveirah lishmah, which the Misnagdim vehemently disagreed with, be in conflict with any of the 13 principles of the Rambam?
And where does the Gra specifically deal with this issue?
mw13: I was never clear on that. It could just be that many consider institutionalizing changing a Din as a violation of Mach’chish Magideha. And I don’t know if I’ve seen a Gra on that inside, but I’ve seen others mention it.
“DY: That is not true. I have met major Rabbonim who, though they don’t publicly say it, won’t have Chassidish wine or Shechitah. Some of the names might shock you,”
I would venture to say, and I’m probably right, that the chassidshe hashgocha and shechita they won’t eat is Lubavitcher and the reason they won’t eat is specific to Lubavitch and is not because it is chassidsh.
That’s what I would have told Sam had I met him.
I used to work at a place owned by Satmar and during the “Holiday season” they would provide dinner to the workers because they had to work late because of the extra customers.
Even though the place was owned by Satmar’s the workers were all kind and there was a running joke about some meals being Satmar meals and other being Lubavich meals. It seems the Lubavichers would not eat the meat from the Satmar place and would only eat the fish meals
Even though the place was owned by Satmar’s the workers were all kind
Why would that be surprising?
As far as the meat, if there was a real issue of ne’emanus, they wouldn’t eat fish either. It’s probably a matter of shechitah standards.
I meant workers were not all kind, but there were workers of all kinds Many kinds of Chassidish and Yeshivish and MO’s . Should have corrected my typo
I dont know what it was, All I can tell you there was a running joke that the fish meals were the Chabad meals
(Very few) People don’t eat Satmar meat because of the Shabbos issue.
Not eating Chabad Shechitah is much more mainstream than not eating Chassidish Shechitah, which exists, but is very, very rare.
According to this teshuvah by r’ chaim berlin (full disclosure: I saw it quoted online, not inside), the cherem does not apply to chassidim today.
??????? ???? ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???, ?????? ????? ???”? ?”? ?? ??’ ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????, ??? ?? ?????? ???????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?’ ??????? ???? ?????
He makes two interesting assumptions: 1. the reason for the original cherem was because the chassidim were “hekilu bichvod talmidei chachomim” and 2. the original cherem applied to all chassidim, not some.
What Shabbos issue?
It’s a made up issue and the people that ever make any hay of it, besides being excruciating few as Sam said, are only mo zionists angry at Satmar’s shitta on zionism. Sam and no one will be able to name any mainstream, semi-meainstream or even semi-semi-mainstream name that has any issue with Shabbos and Satmar. In fact, the issue has nothing to do with Satmar. The kehilos in Hungary at-large as well as many other places in Eastern Europe had zmanim that Shabbos started and ended later than the common American zman. It not only is a 100% legitimate shitta, but it has nothing to do with Satmar or chasidim in general as it was held by Oberlanders and many other non-chasidic kehilos in Europe. Furthermore, since post-WWII in America Satmar has actually held the earlier zman to start Shabbos (they still use the later zman to end Shabbos) after an agreement between the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Ahron Kotler than the chasidim will start Shabbos later per the then Litvish practice and the Litvish will end Shabbos later per the then Chasidish practice.
Joseph: Have you ever been in Kiryas Yoel after sunset on Friday night? And the (very, very) few that I know of who are concerned about this can not in any way be called “Modern Orthodox”.
Oh, come on, you can’t call someone a mechallel Shabbos for holding of Rabbeinu Tam’s shittah kipshutah.
Sam,
Have you ever been in Kiryas Yoel? Let alone after shkiah on Friday night.
And you would wonder why Satmar wonder how there possibly be people who call themselves Shomer Shabbos already on their way to the movies at 42 minutes after Shkiah? A good half hour before Rabbeinu Tam?
A kid once told me that he and his father would sit in the car on late Shabbos afternoon waiting for the zman (42?) to turn on the ignition and head to the stadium so they wouldn’t miss more of the game than they had to.
The main, fundamental differences between Chassidus verses Yeshivish religious practice are as follows:
1. Religious practice based on sincere intent (Chassidus) vs. Religious practice based on you do… or else it’s an aveira.
2. The rebbe is definitely a spiritual leader, but its also an organizational structural difference. It is a more personalized approach. vs. Litvish rely on Gedolei Yisrael/ Gadol hador/ rosh yeshiva for mesorah. Its pretty much impossible for most litvaks to meet any of these gedolim for themselves (I live in America, the likelihood I will ever meet a gadol in Bnei brak is…).
3. The social mechitzah is different: A yeshiva bochur who is 17 when walking past a 16 year old girl on the sidewalk from a local bais yaakov on shabbos will say “gut shabbos” as a reflex. Vs. In BP, Williamsburg, a married man walking down the street will never say “gut shabbos” to a five year-old girl/ female period. They will not even respond if you ask them for directions (went through that one time and ended up inside the men’s section of Bobov-48… oops!).
4. Fervor- By the chassidim, the davening takes much longer because there is more intense concentration on each word. vs. Litvaks go more quickly.
5. Nusach: I know yeshivishe people who daven nusach sefard and others daven ashkenaz, chassidish people may daven nusach sefard, but there are other nusach sefard variations as well. Karlin-Stolin has its own siddur, as does Lubavitch, there may be others as well.
DY: I agree. That being said, I have met one Rov (and he’s not crazy) who does, at least for himself.
nisht: Yes, I have been there. I’ve been there for Shabbos, too.
“(and he’s not crazy)”
Thou doth protest too much.
Joseph:
It’s a made up issue and the people that ever make any hay of it, besides being excruciating few as Sam said, are only mo zionists angry at Satmar’s shitta on zionism. Sam and no one will be able to name any mainstream, semi-meainstream or even semi-semi-mainstream name that has any issue with Shabbos and Satmar. In fact, the issue has nothing to do with Satmar. The kehilos in Hungary at-large as well as many other places in Eastern Europe had zmanim that Shabbos started and ended later than the common American zman. It not only is a 100% legitimate shitta, but it has nothing to do with Satmar or chasidim in general as it was held by Oberlanders and many other non-chasidic kehilos in Europe.
Is the Chofetz Chaim (siman 261, Buir Halacha D”H “Mitchilas HasShkiyah”) mainstream enough for you?
“…mi’yad achar haschulas ha’shkiyah, haynu mi’shuh sheha’chamah niskaseh me’eynainu, ho issur gemur shelo laasos melacha, vi’chas vi’shaom lihukel ba’zeh, di’ho safek issur skilah…”
“… right after the beginning of shkiyah, which is from the time that the sun is hidden from our eyes, there is an absolute prohibition to not do melacha, and heaven forbid to be lenient in this, for it is a possible prohibition punishable by stoning…”
mw13, there are numerous shittas where many people follow one other than the Chofetz Chaim’s shitta. Is everyone deviating from the CCs shitta on any hlaachic matter by following another widely followed shitta also shkotzim? Has Rabbeinu Tam become chopped liver? The Chofetz Chaim paskens tznius is obligatory from age three. I’m sure your three year old daughter is never C”V seen by anyone other than siblings or parents in short sleeves above the elbow.
Joseph- That’s because l’gabei tznius many other poskim (among them, the chazon ish, rav moshe, etc) disagree with the chofetz chaim. by shabbos, do other poskim disagree with the CC?
<I>A yeshiva bochur who is 17 when walking past a 16 year old girl on the sidewalk from a local bais yaakov on shabbos will say “gut shabbos” as a reflex.</I>
Is that true where you come from? I wasn’t 17 too long ago, and iirc, greeting a girl your age was certainly not a reflex! Have the standards changed that fast?
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