Chasidus Without Context

“A warm fuzzy feeling doesn’t mean you’re getting closer to Hashem.
And shteiging for 8 hours also doesn’t necessarily bring you to dveikus with Hashem. If you learn not lishma, or you learn but you’re full of gaiva, then it’s mutav to go to a fahrbrengen. Jews have different ways to be inspired and to connect.

Let’s not all act like we’re Harav Schach here. No one is even close.

AviraDara: “no one thought of it as a huge holiday until present-day chabad.”

Its an ambiguous statement, but if your intention was to say that even in chabad, no one thought it was a big yom tov until “present-day”, then you couldn’t have been more mistaken; 19 Kislev has always been celebrated in chabad with seudos, yom tov clothing, no tachnun etc. This was passed down by tradition through the 7 Chabad Rebbes and generations of Chabad families.

If your intention was to say that it was never considered a yom tov in the velt, until present-day Chabad made it one, then that is also not entirely accurate. Other chasidishe kreizen also considered it a personal yom tov for them, as the taanos the misnagdim had on Chabad were also on them. The alter rebbe was picked due to his particular influence in chassidus at the time. Chabad has also always made it a point of spreading chassidus through farbrengens on 19 Kislev.

It is true, however, that there is more of a fuss nowadays in regards to 19 Kislev, but that is the case with every long-held initiative Chabad offers nowadays, the reason being that the Rebbe, in general, always brought Chabad’s ideas to a much broader scale than his predecessors. There are also a lot more Lubavitchers now than there’s ever been, so you’re obviously a lot more likely to hear 19 Kislev then if you’d live in “olden-day” Chabad.

It is an interesting question to what degree Yidden were learned. Of course, it changed over time and country. Difference between Vilna in 17th century and Morocco 10th century might be more than between Lakewood and Tom’s River.

Stam, a lot of gemoras discuss various behaviors of population that are not very learned. Say, making nedorim left & right seemed to be quite popular. It seems that classicial amei haaretz were at least “culturally Jewish” – we presume that they did maaser but not sure that they did. To appreciate that – would you say about a Reformer or a socialist – you presume they keep kosher but just in case, I won’t eat there? unfortunately, not …

I think one presumption is that Am H. knows Tanach (without Rashi) but not Mishna. Thus, you should admonish people if your words have a clear support in a posuk (not just a hint0 and, presumably, they’ll listen.

You can probably get a better picture if you go through Gemora cases where Rabbis make a takanah based on what majority of people will do or accept.

“I thought about spending a few minutes bashing their messianic fantasies and their arrogance in saying that their way is superior.”

I corrected your post to state what truly happened 😂

Damoshe, that’s extremely offensive. What did the baal shem tov teach that doesn’t make sense to you? You can’t dismiss half of klal yisroel, including poskim like the avnei nezer and divrei chaim, as believing in nonsense, chas veshalom.

Avira. the Besht taught that improper thoughts should not be avoided. The reason is that he believed that since the entire world is a manifestation of Hashem’s will, and Hashem is purely good, therefore everything in the world is good. This is the basis of the whole idea of klipos, hiding kernels of holiness within them.
The Besht said that if one was in middle of davening, and began having improper thoughts, one should NOT try to remove them from his mind. Instead, he should concentrate on the images, and appreciate the beauty within them. Try to acknowledge that it all comes from Hashem. Since lust is connected with love, if one recognizes that the lust comes from Hashem, concentrating on it will lead to Ahavas Hashem.
Indeed, one of his students, Leib Melamed from Brody, wrote a commentary on the Tur, and he commented that it’s praiseworthy to try and picture inappropriate images while davening, in order to elevate your love of Hashem.

Obviously, the misnagdim strongly opposed this idea. R’ Dovid of Makow, one of the misnagdim, explained something which the Gra said – the Gra came out publicly against chassidim exclaiming “Yakar!” while davening. R’ Dovid said the Gra picked this issue because Yakar has the same letters as Keri. He wouldn’t use the term straight out due to tznius, but he was alluding to the improper ideas they had during davening.

damoshe, your’re reading too many things online.

Being ma’aleh the nitzotzos of kedushah that are in hirhurim asurim, is something discussed a LOT in chasidishe seforim, and is limited to….tzadikim. It’s a central theme of the meor aynayim of chernoble, and no one says not to avoid them; they say that tzadikim convert the “ahabah nefulah”, the fallen love, which went to a bad place (an issur) and elevate it into ahavas Hashem.

However, it can only be done by someone above their taavos, someone who is “libi chalal bekirbi,” i.e.m the tanya’s tzadik, as he explains in detail. If someone is still beset with taavos gashmius, he cannot elevate his thoughts higher than he is himself.

The arizal said on the pasuk by ervas achoso “chesed hu,” that there is kedushah in aveiros, but that they are “assurim” – tied down, unable to be accessed. It’s something that all the mekubalim talk about, before the baal shem.

The tanya does say, however, that one can elevate gashmius thoughts about devorim mutarim, such as tasty food.

The posuk literally says ואתם הדבקים בה’ אלקיכם….

This is not new.

The environment of the Chayai Adam was an outlier.

It seems cf didn’t like my post. Oh well. It was the truth.

cf?

Yechi, i know they don’t learn it, and I’m fine with that – that’s hagufah the point. I’m fine with other groups not learning my groups seforim, and i expect the same from them. No one should think that their way is superior and the only real yiddishkeit, as long as the other group has a mesorah

Chabad doesn’t grant the right for other groups to serve Hashem their way.

It doesn’t matter if it’s “fine with you” what ehrliche bochurim choose to learn or not learn. Not everyone has to learn chasidus to be good Jews.

@yechihamelech

Nefesh Hachim is not “chasidishe” concepts. Its just that “chasidism” especialy Chabad took regular Jewish concepts from Arizal and others and called it “chasidus”. Kabalah and pnimius hatorah have been around long before Chabad.

How many if you complain about chassidish customs but yet buy meat that was shected by them?

“I see a lot of bashing in YWN CR of other communities and Jewish institutions without fully understanding the full picture of the demographics within said communities and institutions. What works for Lakewood or Brooklyn isn’t necessarily helpful or realistic for other communities. What are ways we can bridge the gap and have mutual respect as frum Jews?”
written by the OP on 10/12/22

Avira,

I don’t mean to draw this into a whole back and forth, but I just want to clarify my argument.
My last statement about the Rebbe was qualifying what I said about the way 19 Kislev was celebrated by the oilam, however within Chabad nothing was changed (or “inflated” as you put it”), not in regards to minhagim, or anything. And even among the velt, Chabad was always celebrated as a yom tov for chassidus. That’s why I took issue with the way you said “19 Kislev was never a huge yom tov until present day chabad”.
It could be were both agreeing, and this whole discussion boils down to phraseology…..

My point about nefesh hachaim was that your analogy is unfair; chabad doesn’t learn nefesh hachaim we already 250 plus sefarim, whereas in the litvishe world, teachings of chassidus (or kabbalah as you call it) aren’t offered. If litvishe bochurim are learning n”h then great, but those chabad bochurim probably kept coming back to your yeshiva for the few bochurim that preffered Tanya.

American, that’s really, really hateful; chasidim do a better job than other groups at retaining stragglers. Those same people who are not very enthusiastic about yiddishkeit would probably be off the derech in other communities.

Chasidishe communities learned from litvishe how to prioritize learning, establish kolellim, etc…and we learned from chasidim how to approach modernity, how to survive amid a spiritually caustic culture… our tznius standards also greatly improved with the influence of chasidim.

Chasidishe yungeleit who are into learning are VERY medakdek in halacha…check out a chasidishe kolel, the myriad sifrei halacha put out by chasidim, and you’ll see it.

Every community has its drop outs, its outliers, its mainstream and its cream of the crop. Focusing on the bottom tiers is just biased.

Yechi, no, I do not agree that yat”k was ever a major day for chasidim until the last rebbe made it so. I don’t think it was any bigger than 21 kislev is for Satmar.

As for the 250 seforim chabad rebbes have; no one learns them all. It would be virtually impossible. Most bochurim learn likutei sichos, tanya, igros, likutei torah, and not much else – which is still a tremendous amount of learning, more than enough to confuse young people into not understanding basic yiddishkeit amid a sea of kabalistic concepts – pardon my snarkiness.

There were no indicators that the missionaries were aware of that there were bochurim in my yeshiva, or the other yeshivos that they visit, who are interested in chabad. None. They go everywhere on yat”k, simchas torah, and other times, to spread chasidus to everyone and anyone.

Most yeshivos throw them out or threaten to call the police, especially when alcohol is being offered to minors. My yeshiva is kinder, but no one was interested. they just wanted to eat their supper in peace. This has been going on for decades.

Do you agree that chabad is not necessary learning to be a good Jew? Do you think litvishe bochurim, with or without n”h, can be ovdei Hashem and bnei olam haba if they spend their lives in shas and poskim, and don’t ever think that they’re ready for kabalah(as is the case with many roshei yeshiva)?

And do you think a chabad chossid, or any chossid, is inherently superior to a litvak, because they are aware of chasidishe torah?

This is coming from someone who has spent years learning chasidishe seforim, alongside ramchal, gaon, n”h, shl”a, etc..

“

teachings of chassidus (or kabbalah as you call it)

”

Something is odd about this phrase, and the one that follows — which practically renders the Nefesh Hachaim a Chasidishe Sefer. I guess the יסוד ושרש עבודה is also?

Anyhow, some basic definitions are necessary.

Avira,

No, I don’t pardon your snarkiness.
You see, your argument that chassidus is a sea of kabbalistic concepts that confuses one’s perception of judaism was the age-old claim of misnagdim of yesteryear. Most people don’t believe that anymore. They may not be inclined to learn it or think its necessary, but hardly anyone thinks it’s detrimental.
But then again, your entitled to your own beliefs, however fringe they may be…..

amiricanyeshivish, you say, “[I]n the non chasidish world… someone who is modern or just plain not acting frum knows that he (or she) isn’t up to par in their Yiddishkeit. I don’t think that is as much the case by the chasidishe society. It is just one big club.”

This is a very outsider’s perspective which boggles the insiders’ minds. I guess it’s like how all members of a foreign race look alike. But I recall how the Chasidim in my Yeshiva couldn’t get over how the non-Chasidish would conflate the Eidel, soft-spoken Chunyoks in Beis Medrash with the guys who don’t know the color of its walls.

Halevei I am not sure what you mean. Please clarify which perspective do you find boggeling.

But in any event I am totaly not an outsider not in the Yeshivish world which I grew up in (as in my username) nor in the chasidishe world which I am very familiar with from living amongst them for close to 20 years and having many many chasidish aquainteses professionally and personally.

Yechi, I do not think that chasidus is a sea of kabalistic ideas that confuse people. I said that a bochur learning too much chasidishe seforim – or too many intense mussar seforim like kav hayashar for that matter – can and does obfuscate basic yiddishkeit. No other group of chasidim has their bochurim (and their aleph-bais-ignorant baalei teshuvah) learn chasidus anywhere near as much as neo-chabad. In most chasidusen, they learn from shiurim, and maybe once or twice a week they’ll learn sefas emes, but most don’t learn Tanya (especially the first half) until they’re older.

Because it can be confusing. And do you want proof? Has there ever been a movement in modern day Judaism which struggled with defining the divinity of a man and his supposed status as the essence of god wrapped in a body, which permits people to pray at his grave, as the last lubavicther rebbe said? Do you know of any other group which struggles with a question of why they do mitzvos; is it because the rebbe said so or is it because G-d said to? And do you know any other group of chasidim who believe that their rebbe can hear their thoughts from the olam ha’emes, that you should pray to him, that he will answer you, that he (not his zchusim) protects you?

I haven’t.

Any limud besides gemara, shas and poskim, is secondary, and should be kept for mussar seder. I spent 30 minutes a day on chasidishe seforim. The rest of the time I learned gemara. there’s a limit to how much you can skew gemara. There’s no limit to how much apikorsus you can make from kablalah, chas veshalom.

american; if you go to a chasidishe chasuna, you will know right away who the choshuve people are; it may not be as clear as it is in the litvishe world (i.e., kapotes) but you can tell if you’re paying attention.

Emphasizing dress to the extent that chasidim today do is a complicated, delicate subject. I don’t pretend to be an expert, but they are basing themselves on a mesorah. What to do when someone is not receptive to that mesorah….is something that they need to fix in-house. they don’t need me telling them what to do.

Avira, this is an argument between the RMA an the Taz in YD 334 where the RMA says that one gets put in cherem without regard to the consequences whereas, if I remember correctly, the Taz argues.