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@da
1) in yeshiva in chabad they have sefer learning gemarah for 7 hours.
2) sichos are also Torah – many of them are pilpulim in gemarah – so it’s the same thing as learning a reb chain or a ketzos which you would consider learning gemarah. And the Rashi ones or chassidus ones are also Torah. Anything wrong with learning Chumash Rashi and meforshim.
3) chassidus is Torah, just because you don’t hold of learning it, we go like shitas chabad, and it’s even paskened in shulchan aruch that one should learn kabalah, penimius hatorah. The baal hatanya writes one should learn 1 third of the day penimius hatorah. (It’s in likutai Torah, it’s referenced in shulchan aruch harav hilchos Talmud Torah)
4) first of all the sugar of nisim is a sugya in chassidus and kabalah. See hachodesh 5666 – of the the deepest concepts in chassidus. People spend a year learning this sugya or more. 2nd of all – I heard 2 litvaks discussing who is a bigger gadol reb Moshe of reb shlome zalman. So….. Point?
5) I would actually like to have a gemarah discussion with you and see your level of learning, start a new thread, whatever sugya you want.Joseph,
I once heard overheard you klerring whether it was a bigger mitzva to beat up your wives or your kids.
skripka: What on earth are you talking about? The sheer materialism and pursuit of worldly pleasures in Teaneck, Five Towns and other Modern communities is unparalleled anywhere else in other frum communities. In New York you can easily find poor Jews; not much in Teaneck Five Towns and other Modern communities. The MO schools won’t even accept children unless the parents agree to pay over $30,000 per child. In Chareidi communities the Yeshivas will accept children for free, if necessary. And even those that pay, pay much more reasonably. And the homes in the Modern communities are far far more fancy show and tell than what you’ll find in Chareidi, Litvish or Chasidish, communities.
Dear UJM,
Yom HaAtzmaut is a day when all good Jews
should express special gratitude to G*D.So far as “Yom Hatzshmutz” is concerned,
that was the day you were born.Sincerely,
SQUARE_ROOTI may live in a “wrong” place, but I often see the opposite: some busy professionals coming late at night to Kollel to learn with enthusiasm, while some school rebbes occupied by thinking where to earn extra cash by tutoring, working evenings, or anything else. It may be, of course, my view is biased as I see those who come to kollel but not those who do not come.
To debunk one of Joe’s lies, here is the tuition charged by some MO schools (showing the highest amount, as they can vary by grade – these are usually 6-8 grade):
RYNJ : $17k
Moriah: $18,870
Yavneh: $16,640
Yeshivat He’atid: $13,350
JEC: $20,100
Kushner: $21,400Most of the schools offer scholarships when needed, and some have programs to cap tuition regardless of financial need.
Joe, you are a liar, plain and simple.@daMoshe, Correct, even wheen you factor in common schools like HANC or HALB, whose high school tuition is closer to 30K, they still have massive breaks and honestly, calling MO Jews materialistic because they pay a lot for tuition, which is merely a factor of their superior education system, is disingenuous,
Three-Quarters of stores in Heimish neighborhoods are luxury food or clothing boutiques. The magazine ads, geared toward Chasidim, are a lesson in excess. Every yingerman getting married expects to be outfitted with a trousseau fit for a king, with just the perfect silk pajamas and a shtriemel that needs more fittings than a kallah’s wedding gown. The perfect carriage, the perfect outfit, everything is the perfect this or that. That atitude does not exist in MO culture
Let the wonderful wealthy people who work all day pay Kollel yungerleit and mechanchim to be their nighttime chavrusos. Zeh nehneh v’zeh nehneh.
They need to supplement their incomes somehow.
I see you didn’t put the costs in numeric order, and my quick reading of it missed a “lower” priced school at “only” $13.5k per year, per child. Even that is astronomical, especially for a family with six, seven, eight or more children. Which is exactly why you don’t find MO families with so much children, as you would in traditional Orthodox families.
It is well known that MO schools don’t negotiate lower tuition prices by much, even if the family cannot afford the MO schools lowest offer. Unlike Chareidi schools where many parents can be paying $4k/year per child, some even paying less than that and some parents even paying almost nothing.
lakewh: There’s no doubt that materialism and and pursuit of worldly pleasures is far greater in MO communities than in any other Orthodox community. Even if no one is immune, unfortunately.
The vast majority of frum homes in Brooklyn are nothing fancy, at all.
“Only” $17,000 per child, per year, tuition at the lowest cost MO school, if you’re lucky enough to live close to it?
Wow, that’s real cheap!
No wonder MO families can’t afford to have more than 2.1 children (and a dog), on average; and work so hard against G-d ‘s ideas on being fruitful and multiplying in order to keep up with the ever decreasing American (and Western) birth rate.
@ujm,
1) I see you’re still stuck on the tuition part which proves nothing about materialism.
2) The entire lifestyle, not just the homes, of Heimish Yidden is based on materialism. I gave specific examples, and you can just walk through BP, Flatbush, Williamsburg, Lakewood, Monsey, etc. or read the magazines geared to those communities for examp,les on your own.
3) “Unlike Chareidi schools where many parents can be paying $4k/year per child, some even paying less than that and some parents even paying almost nothing” Umm….I know plenty of Boro Park schools where this isn’t the case. Not everyone gets free busing or tuition breaks
4) Repeating the sme line without proof doesn’t make it truth ( “There’s no doubt that materialism and and pursuit of worldly pleasures is far greater in MO communities than in any other Orthodox community. Even if no one is immune, unfortunately.”)
5) Repeated bad-faith ad hominim attacks (2.1 children AND A DOG!!!) Doesn’t actually prove a point. And I don’t see what your issue with a dog is. My next door neighbor’s dogs Kugel and String Bean love to play with my kids.Ujm, as usual, you make grand assertions with no facts .
Joe, you made a claim of $30k and you’re wrong. Admit that you lied, instead of now just saying “but it’s more expensive than Lakewood!”
You say “It is well known that MO schools don’t negotiate lower tuition prices by much, even if the family cannot afford the MO schools lowest offer.” Sorry, but it’s not well known. MO schools give scholarships just like yeshivos do, and as I said, some even have programs in place to cap tuition regardless of scholarship request. This is based on a percentage of your income, and it limits how much you pay. So it doesn’t matter if you have 3 kids or 8 kids in the school, you’d pay the same amount under these programs.
As for it being more expensive than Lakewood – you’re absolutely correct, it is. That’s because teachers in MO schools actually are certified teachers. The number of kids per class is significantly lower (I have nieces and nephews in Lakewood schools – I just heard a few days ago how my niece has 35 girls in her class, with one teacher. My kids had between 15-20 kids in their classes.) Limudei chol is taught in MO schools. There are extra-curriculars. These all add to the cost. So yes, it cost more, but you get a better education, with a more individualized approach.The shuls that have the biggest, craziest kiddushim that I’ve been to are all chassidish (meaning on a regular basis – I’m not referring to when there’s a simcha). My brother davens in a chassidish minyan, and he’s told me how pretty much every week, there is probably over $5,000 worth of liquor being consumed by the people there. No, it’s not a huge crowd of a few hundred people, it’s just a standard minyan size.
Just this past Shabbos, I was away, visiting someone. Friday night we davened at a minyan in someone’s house. After davening, they decided to have a minyan Shabbos morning due to the heat. They had a few concerns to work out – such as ensuring that there would be a minyan, having someone to lein… and their biggest concern, that they spent the most time figuring out, what will they have for Kiddush? Since this was decided on Shabbos, how could they arrange food? So each person had to say what they were going to contribute to it!
After davening on Shabbos morning, I didn’t stick around for the kiddush. But by Mincha, one of the guys starting saying loudly how the kiddush was lacking, and next week, he’d “go all out”, and would be purchasing lots of fancy foods to serve.trolling claim went down from $30k to $17k … this is in line what my local yeshivish school (attempt to) charge those who work for the living. but they do teach some decent limudei chol for that price and have small class sizes. Which proves that this is a one of three major sins to charge more and teach chol – at least if this is what market demands OOT.
skripka: The tuition point is addressing a separate issue.
The entire lifestyle, not just the homes, of MO Jews (not heimish yidden) is based on materialism. You can see the open differences between, say, Brooklyn/State Island Yidden and Teaneck/Five Towns Jews.
Why do you think MO Jews, generally, have such small family sizes whereas traditional Orthodox Yidden, typically, have large family sizes?
DaMoshe: Yes, it is well known that MO schools don’t negotiate significantly lower tuition rates whereas traditional Yeshivos do.
How many times have you missed a “Kiddush Club” in MO shuls? Not too often. Then they come home shikur. This issue is extremely rare in Yeshivish/Chasidish minyanim.
If you have 8 kids in MO school (in the imaginary world where an MO family has 8 children) and your income is $60k/year, you’ll be paying most of your income to the MO school, if you want a chance of keeping the 8 in MO schools.
lakewhut: It is true that the SY families in Flatbush often have fancy houses, but by the Ashkenazic Yeshivish families (Flatbush, Kensington, Bensonhurst, Boro Park, etc.) that is infrequent.
There’s very good reason why (and how) the Orthodox demographics in America went from 70% MO in the 1960s to 20% MO today.
I don’t understand the debate: who spends more money, that’s a bad thing, well what’s the alternative? If it’s to give to tzedaka, that’s a mitzvah, if it’s to save and reinvest in business, then what’s the difference?? I would say on the contrary, better spend more than save more (not saying to not save at all, but one can make a basic vessel for parnasa and emergencys and the rest rely on hashem) If you’re saying that they should work less and learn in their extra time – that depends on the person see hilchos Talmud Torah in shulchan aruch harav perek 3. Someone who is not able to learn kol hatorah kulah from the mekoros – ראש בית יוסף, and there reasons, is not obligated to make his תורה קבע ומלאכתו עראי .
And what about instead of working hard on a business, a person just has his 9-5 job, and in his free time watches movies, radio shows, politics, posts on these forums TYW, etc.Learning and doing mitzvos for gan Eden vs physical reward:
ולא אמרו חכמים “לעולם יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות אפילו שלא לשמה” (רא”ש פרק ד’ דפסחים ותוספות סוטה דף כ”ב) אלא כשמקיים המצות שלומד בתורה, רק שאינו לומד ומקיים לשם שמיים אלא מיראת העונש בעולם הבא או אפילו בעולם הזה או מאהבת שכר לקבל פרס בעולם הבא או אפילו בעולם הזה עושר וכבוד ש”למשמאילים בה” הנתן מן השמים או אפילו ליקח מעצמו כבוד וגדולה שיקראוהו רב ויהיה ראש ישיבהJoe, I’ve never NOT missed a kiddush club – I refuse to participate in them! If you really think they’re rare in chassidish/yeshivish minyanim, you are sadly mistaken. Or just making up things again – that’s probably more likely.
As for tuition, again, you’re making things up. You know nothing of what happens in MO schools – why would you? You’ve never sent a child to one, never mind 8 children. If you’re making 60k, then no, you’re not paying the majority of your income towards tuition. I know personally about a couple of the schools on the list above, because I have friends who send their kids there (though I do not). Tuition there, if you make 150k, is capped at 15%. If you make less than that, they assume you can’t even pay 15%, and they work with you to see what you can pay.
Stop lying so much.In any case, regarding tuition, that’s not materialism. If anything, it shows a deeper commitment to Judaism when you spend so much on a Jewish education for your children.
DaMoshe: Chareidi Yeshivos, despite having a significantly lower tuition than MO schools (which are more often than not co-ed), provide a far far superior Limudei Kodesh Torah education than any MO school. Everyone sees and knows this very clearly and unambiguously. The extra money put into MO schools goes towards secular studies.
And, still, 50% of the MO students end up OTD; a statistic coming directly from eminent MO Rabbi Steven Pruzansky of Teaneck. In the Chareidi world, the OTD rate is in the 1% ballpark.
It is clear who is doing things right — and who is doing things wrong.
I think this complaint is based on his actual experiences – MO school refused to count kids from multiple wives for a total family discount. In more patriarchic school, they ignored different batim, and count just the Head of the Household.
“If you’re making 60k, then no, you’re not paying the majority of your income towards tuition.”
DaMoshe: Do you really believe that Kushner will reduce their $21,400 per child, per year, tuition cost to under $3,750 per child, per year, for a family earning $60k with eight children in school?
@ujm I apologize greatly for putting your statements in quotes instead of italicizing. It’s been years since I’ve been active on here and have forgotten how to do it.
1) “Why do you think MO Jews, generally, have such small family sizes whereas traditional Orthodox Yidden, typically, have large family sizes?” – Non- sequitur, has no question as to the materialistic nature of the society.
2) “How many times have you missed a “Kiddush Club” in MO shuls? Not too often. Then they come home shikur. This issue is extremely rare in Yeshivish/Chasidish minyanim.” – Firstly, this is an extremely uninformed opinion. I have spent time in the Five Towns, Teaneck, The Hempsteads, etc. where the MO Jews live. and I have NEVER , not even once, seen them coming home from shul shikur. It is so silly, especially when practically anyone who I’ve ever seen publicly shikur have been Heimish guys either in the Catskills or increasingly in certain neighborhoods in Monsey and the Lakewood area. I’ve also seen it occasionally in Flatbush, but very rarely.
3) “If you have 8 kids in MO school (in the imaginary world where an MO family has 8 children) and your income is $60k/year, you’ll be paying most of your income to the MO school, if you want a chance of keeping the 8 in MO schools.” – Again, Non-sequitur. And the average Jew, no matter which community, is paying a significant portion of their income to tuition. Either their own children’s or for their neighbor who got the break.
4) “lakewhut: It is true that the SY families in Flatbush often have fancy houses, but by the Ashkenazic Yeshivish families (Flatbush, Kensington, Bensonhurst, Boro Park, etc.) that is infrequent.”
I dont know where to start with this one. Every block you go on in BP has McMansions being built. Monstrosities 4 stories high with grand terraced porches for the landscaping and a driveway with built in running LED lights. Inside you have porcelain tile costing $10,000 just for one floor, with doors going for $1500 each and hardware that wouldn’t look out of place in high-end Hollywood elite neighborhoods.
The streets are lined with stores selling pacifier clips for 60 dollars and baby stretchies for 150. Cafes teeming with people buying ridiculously overpriced luxury food. Every now and then, between the banks and internet kiosks, is a luxury clothing store . The standard of living and the things that are considered “givens” in the Heimish velt has no comparison in the modern world, just ask them. When they travel to Brooklyn their reaction typically is “How in the world do people manage to survive this pressure cooker of excess?”
Go to Google Maps and choose a random block in Boro Park on 13th or 16th Avenues, and compare the archived pictures from 10 or more years ago to now. The difference in stores, modes of dress, types of buildings, etc. is tremendous
Joseph,
“It is clear who is doing things right — and who is doing things wrong.”
Just curious, how many children in say, Teaneck, have recently committed suicide or been murdered by their parent?
GadolHadofi: Don’t forget the next question: How many gangs of Jewish kids are running around Teaneck terrorizing store owners?
I’ll address to the other points in a future commitment, but DaMoshe, how many Jewish kids in Teaneck would even be bothered if a Jewish owned book shop in Teaneck was selling adult entertainment (vhamaivin yovin) material to the Jewish community?
Not too many would be bothered. And certainly not bothered enough to shut them down.
And there’s the difference.
Dofi: You can’t get any more dopee than taking a freak incident, something that never previously occurred in the 80+ year history of the Chareidi community in Lakewood (or anywhere, for that matter), and pretending it is some kind of example of things that happen every now and then, when in your dishonest you know good and well this is a virtually unprecedented non-example of anything.
Of course you conveniently forget examples that don’t fit your false agenda, such as the story all over the news about ten years ago of the Modern Orthodox husband in Staten Island that murdered his wife after she advised him she wanted a divorce.
Regarding suicide, I can’t argue with you that suicides have never occurred in the Modern Orthodox community. They must be a special class that’s exempt from such stuff. I’m sure a Lexis-Nexis search will turn up nothing.
skripka:
1. Don’t avoid the question; the question has nothing to do with the other questions and discussions, but pray tell why is the norm in the MO world to have about two children whereas the norm in the Chareidi world is to have about eight children (and oftentimes more)?
2. Kiddish Clubs have famously existed in MO Shuls for decades; that’s where they originated. There’s no doubt that getting drunk on Shabbos is far more common by the MO than any other frum communities.
3. The claim was advanced by DaMoshe that “Tuition there, if you make 150k, is capped at 15%. If you make less than that, they assume you can’t even pay 15%”, regarding MO schools and a family with 8 children earning 60k/year. Do you believe the MO schools will accept all these 8 children for less than $9,000 per year (60k*.15), or less than $1,125 per child, per year? You’re being dishonest if you claim you believe that MO schools will accept that little tuition.
4. Flatbush has very very few mansions, certainly as a percentage of frum homes. Even Boro Park, which has relatively more than Flatbush, is also still a small minority of frum homes. On the other hand, in most of the major MO communities in America, having large fancy homes is the norm — not the exception, like in Chareidi Brooklyn.
And you’re also very incorrect about store pricing. Boro Park and Flatbush have the lowest pricing for frum products (food, clothing, seforim, books, Shabbos/Yom Tov materials, etc. than in any other frum community. Indeed, frum people come from all over the country to shop in Brooklyn due to the far better pricing than they have available locally.
Joseph,
You’re really slipping. In the past, you would have claimed ignorance or that we can’t believe a Lakewood mother murdered her own babies and that kids there are committing suicide. Just like you did when a child was murdered in Boro Park and girls were abused in Williamsburg. Now you bury your head in the sand like an ostrich, shout “freak incident” and post, “Why does anyone need to know? There’s no need to know this story. It’s better for everyone to not know or talk about.”
You filthy hypocrite! You never tire of pointing out the faults, real or imagined, of every Jewish person and community that isn’t chassidish or yeshivish according to your narrow definition. You’ve now become completely unhinged, screaming “false agenda” since it’s Lakewood, the vaunted “Ir Hatorah”. So tell us, oh great navi, since you claim the only defense in Eretz Yisrael is Torah learning, why didn’t it protect Lakewood from Shfichas Damim?
But hey, a few paltry murders and suicides in Lakewood is nothing to get worked up over. Let’s all go back to talking about the bash at Wells Fargo and how evil Teaneck is.
This sounds like “my tatty is stronger than your tatty”
1. I’m not avoiding any question. Family size is not an indicator of a level of materialism. The norm in Chasidish and yeshivish circles is also probably closer to 6 or 7, and is trending is lower. Most couples getting married are starting off on birth control, or start after kid number one. The gap between child #1 and #2 is widening in all but the most intense families.
2. I’ll point out what was pointed out before. They don’t exist any longer, mostly because of something else that is becoming increasingly less common in heimish circles – listening to rabbonim. In MO circles, the rav of the shul is listened to and respected more. There may be differing philosophies in what constitutes a shaila, but when they ask, or when the rav says something, it’s followed.
3. Still not sure what the dancing donkeys the amount of tuition says about a community’s level of materialism other than to say it values education more. But please elaborate. And I know from personal experience that they do accept that little tuition
4. Have you ever driven down Ave I? or J? or M, N, O, P, etc.?
5.OOT people (who aren’t the “Yeshivish” or “Chasidish” people the conversation is talking about) coming to shop for staples in BP because it’s cheaper to buy in BP doesn’t negate the point that the standard of living of the people who LIVE in BP, Flatbush THEMSELVES is insanely high
skripka:
1. Regardless of what family size is or isn’t representative of, what is your explanation for the huge differences in family sizes between Chareidi and MO families?
And it is certainly representative of materialism; the reason some “choose” a smaller family size, against Hashem’s decree to be fruitful and multiply, is to live a more comfortable life by reducing expenses incurred by having more children.
2. The point about getting drunk was simply a response to another poster’s canard that getting drunk on Shabbos was more prevalent among the more religious. The entire crisis of this vice famously began in the more modern communities.
That being said, I’m very happy to read your report that listening to, respecting and and adhering to the instructions of one’s Rabbi is becoming more normative in the MO communities. Unfortunately this was less the case in the past. May they continue moving in that direction. But what you’re certainly incorrect about is the canard that this is becoming less the case in Chareidi circles. In fact, this remains very much the practice today as it has been traditionally.
3. The only thing the higher tuition rates in MO schools versus Chareidi Yeshivos represents, is increased quantity and quality of secular studies in MO schools. The quantity and quality of Limudei Kodesh has always been, and remains, indisputably on a much higher quality and level in Chareidi Yeshivos; and the resulting quality of Torah knowledge between their students clearly demonstrates this among elementary and high school graduates.
4 and 5. I’ve been down all those avenues. The fact remains that MO communities have proportionally many more fancy homes than found in Flatbush. The material standards of living is higher in MO communities than in Flatbush. That said, I certainly agree with the notion that standards of living in frum communities, in general, have gone way way up over the last 30 years.
> more prevalent among the more religious.
can we stop this canard? who opened for you secrets of who is “more religious”.
re: standards of living – this has to be judged by the income. It is not a problem when a high-paid professional or a businessman lives in a relatively comfortable house, with limits, of course. When a person who does not have earned income and still tries to keep up with the Cohens, then it is a problem.
As to materialism, I’ve seen a number of limudei kodesh rebbes who are very concerned about gasmiyus, just because they are not getting sufficient income and they are trying to find it. At the same time, I don’t know whether most people in MO shuls are materialistic just because when they come to shul they mostly talk about Torah, sometimes politics, sometimes they bring their jobs but in the context of their expertise as relevant to the Parsha or the daf – engineering, economics, history, science, etc. A gemora discussion about fast days will end with Tosofot in a yeshivish place, but will bring way more historical and astronomical material in MO. Again, my sample might be biased.
Gimmel tamuz is coming: the last maamer the rebbe gave out speaks about the avoda that needs to be in America, that even though a jew can be comfortable physically and spiritually to the ultimate (don’t know anyone holding there) , he needs to be broken from the fact that another jew is not on this level , 30 yrs later, let’s wake up!!!!
I think there is a lot of conflating things here.
Whats a charedi and whats M.O.? Is the cool guy with 3 homes living in Toms River and a foodie eating out in $300 a plate restaurants every night, is that the classic charedi? Maybe they don’t have a formal “club” but they make sure every shabbos there is a kiddish with expensive booz and meatboards etc. Its the same thing as a club and its more prevelant in certain neighboorhoods than you’d admit. Or is it the yeshivisha guy with one broken down car living in a tiny apartment near his kollel? Even chasidim have that difference already (unless you are Skver). Some of those communities still have a kididsh in a house with home baked goods and grape juice still. Very simple and don’t even know what a meatboard is. (By the way now in B.P. there are exclusive shuls where its like its own club. Fancy mikvas with a big kiddish etc. Outsiders are not welcome. Its a new fad. )Now what’s an M.O, guy? Is it the Kushner type (for lack of a better term). Very modern and almost just religous because of tradition. Obviously7 huge kiddish clubs., extreme lavish lifestyles, schools are about being elite and all kinds of functions that aren’t jewish in nature. Some Coed like you speak of. But then there are the ehrlicha YU guys which exist. I worked with a Tzadik who was nifter from Covid. A VP in a large corporation, who tried to hire jews and woke up at 5 AM to learn for 2 hours daily, he had a paper where he’d write a chesbin hanefsh every night. But he was a complete YU guy. I hace come across many ehrlicha YU Teaneack guys like that.
The real ideological difference between the two factions is, do you just keep strictly halacha or is there an idea of a 5th shluchan aruch where you have extra chumras that often our grandfathers never kept. Its a very fine line though. It plays into little things like do you need a hat and jacket when davening etc. It so happens to be that tradional jews “less serious” find it easier to integrate with M.O. and henceforth a higher rate of OTD but i don’t think it defines M.O. or that its a function of M.O. They’d go to chabad which offers a judgement free space too like Kushner.
Bottom line both serious erhlicha and ostentatious shallowness exist in both comminutes and the level of religiosity doesn’t play a role. its a terrible illness in 2024 judisam and is a discusion in it of itself. Circling back to the key thread, Chasdius within M.O. is there to offer that falvor deeper than Halacha for those that seek.
sechel: you mean the day that proved that the Rebbe couldn’t possibly be Mashiach?
@da. i gave up. you won on this toppic. anyway its the day that the king gave up his life to win the war and will lead to bringing moshiach. (as stated in basi ligani 5710)
@da correct if you reject a clear gemarah (I e. If you’re an apikores) then yes, your right!
Sechel83
Don’t fall for this obvious MO deflection. Anytime someone points out MO is a complete joke they immediately bring up ChaBaD like they have the Rebbe living in their minds. Sometimes I wonder if people like DA are closeted in thier hiskashrus to the Rebbe and try and stir up debate at every opportunity to make people think about the Rebbe.
I was thinking about the claim that the Besht had, where he claimed to have been told Mashiach would come when everyone follows chassidus.
I now think this may be true.
I was always taught that there are 2 ways for Mashiach to come – first, we could be deserving of it, and it would arrive. Second, if we are at such a low level, Hashem would send Mashiach to “rescue” us from Galus.
I think that everyone following chassidus would fall into the second category. If everyone followed chassidus, then we’d be at such a low level that Hashem would have to rescue us from Galus.DaMoshe please name a Lubavitch mesivtah or zal that has a pride club. I can name a crown jewel MO institution that did or possibly still does.
Thinking the Rebbe is Moshiach is much less of a problem than openly promoting aveiros. It is no wonder MO yidden studying nothing but nigleh, limud l’chol and trief media (then spending time wondering what high end questionable scotch they will have on Shabbos) are starving for something more. I find it funny hearing bochurim from MO yeshivos singing ChaBaD niggunim on Shabbos, almost like their neshamos are crying to be a part of something actually meaningful.
Your spiteful statement is evidence enough that I am emesdik on this.
Jackk you may be terribly misguided politically but spot on with your chassidishkeit.
“ Chasidus fills a void within the heart of every Yid. Exactly what the Besht was sent to this world for.”
I don’t know how this is possible but I love you as a yid all the same.
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