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Now if only we could get mosdos to ban people who don’t give their wives Gittin….
Dear Common,
On the gemach, point taken. On the low cost hall, you rent the hall and agree that you did not moser. You pay the janitor. Your guest is one of those who called police. If you get found out, you just ask for your money back. Though it seems like you know a lot about this chassidus. And it seems to be a prudent group. If that is correct, than my reply to your comment was lopsided and immature. And I would not think they are playing games with these bans. But then it is not so comparable to what played out in other communities.P. S. Can you please tell us how they set up their corona-minyan?
Common, it is not a matter a public record. I checked and found that the poster does not name names. I simply says “whoever”. Here is the Hebrew (I copied and pasted from an Israeli site):
מטעם ההנהלה הננו להודיע לכל מי שהיה לו או לביתו יד במסירות ובמלשינות, לאלו שהתפללו במנין, או בבית המדרש, או הליכה למקווה וכדומה, בין בקהילתנו ובין בקהילות אחרות, ואף על פי שקיבלו איזה שהוא היתר. אנו אוסרים עליו בכל תוקף דיני התורה, מליהנות מכל ענייני המוסדות לכל פרטיה.
Obviously they have no idea who called the police. They don’t even know if it was a member of their Chassidut or even a Litvak. Just as obviously no one will admit it. Thus, their declaration is a silly exercise that maybe makes them feel good but has no teeth.
Dear Avi,
Even more problematic, is that they are talking about policing that happened in other communities. That does not seem responsible. They have no idea of the context in other places.BTW, What dinei hatorah are they referring to? Niddui, Neder, or Mesira?
We do not rely on miracles. Who can say that he has such merit (see Iggrot Moshe Orach Chayyim 4;48 regarding buying life insurance)? Even if he is going to do a mitzva the merit does not help where danger is prevalent (Kiddushin 39b). Even Shmuel haNavi had to worry (Shmuel Alef 16:2). Besides here all of the people with whom he comes in contact require that level of merit.
Dear Common,
You advanced a narrative that Bohush was prudent about the risks. Then you spread the argument to everywhere else. Now that they seem brash, you put it back on the other side; how bad it is to inform.
Now that I saw a copy of the sign, I disagree. I have no reason to accept that they were spared. And the part about k’chol dinei hatorah has no obvious meaning. It sounds like every community were yidden made bad choices while others were sick and dying. Seems like an attempt to save face.Dear Common,
I am aware of your opinion. It ignores context. You find others with the same opinion, and then justify their context. Finally, you apply that logic everywhere, and you have a convincing case. I disagree. Here is the question on your opinion. If the informer gets no benefit (Nor does he want to harm another Jew.) can he be called a moser? Without hezek there can be no moser.RULE OF LAW!!!
Anyone trying to create anarchy and lawlessness by intimidating whistleblowers should be held accountable!Dear Shnitzel,
Like our President.Dear Common,
I do not dispute your stance about informing, I am unsure if I disagree with that part. From this conversation “they have every right to deny access”. I do not know of any right here.Dear n0mesorah:
Oh yeah? What about Benghazi?
Dear Shnitzel,
1) YES! 2) Benghazi was a total disgrace. It is still mostly ignored. Thank you for bringing it up.Kechol dinei hatorah is very obvious — the right of a property owner to forbid others to derive benefit from his property.
And that also answers the question of whether this has teeth. By making this proclamation, any mosser, whether they know about him or not, who uses their facilities in any way, is a rosho and Hashem will punish him. If he at least pretends to himself to be an observant Jew, he will refrain of his own accord from using their facilities, just as he refrains from eating pork.
Ubiq, you are correct that R Chaim did say that those who ignore the guidelines, relying solely on Divine protection, are rodfim, but that is in the context of the previous question which was about those who break quarantine. Everyone knows that when you conduct a poll the order of the questions matters, and previous questions set the context for later ones. Respondents’ answers to later questions are influenced by the previous ones. So having first been asked about those who knowingly break quarantine, R Chaim’s mind was still in that context.
Even without that, there is a huge difference between someone who has made his own decision that what he is doing is not endangering anyone, and someone who merely says “Hashem will protect me”. It’s obvious that the latter is acting with complete hefkerus, and can therefore justly be called a rodef, while the former simply has a different opinion on the risks involved, which in hindsight can be said to have been proven correct.
Skripa, the vast majority of those who don’t give their wives gittin are correct. Their wives are not entitled to gittin. Unless you’re one of those apikorsim who think that every wife is always entitled to a get whenever she wants one. That’s not how the Torah works. Even under NY law a person is not entitled to a divorce without cause; kol shekein under Torah law.
A woman (and since Rabbenu Gershom, also a man) who gets married is making a lifelong commitment from which, under normal circumstances, they can never be released without their partner’s free and willing consent. To break that they need special circumstances, and the accepted halocho is that a beis din may not order a man to give a get, or a woman to receive one, unless the case is one of those authorized in the gemoro. In all other cases, if someone wants a get they have to persuade their partner to agree, which means giving them whatever they’re demanding.
Dear Milhouse,
“right of a property owner to forbid others” Neder? It is not a public building? Niddui? Was one made? Tnai? Do they write it into the contract? (It is not simple to give these halachic teeth.)
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