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Are there any good yeshivas that are a mix of chasidish and litvish?
Yeshiva Ohr Rabbeinu Elchonon D’Novardok U’Berditchiv
What do you call a good yeshiva, and what do you consider Chassidish?
Novominsk is quite a balance, if I understand correctly, although primarily Litvish.
Gateshead (England) has a lot of both.
Lakewood Mesivta? (I don’t know much about them, but I know a few Litivshe bochorim from there and a few Chassidishe bochurim from the same place, and I’ve heard the chassidim are well integrated there)“Gateshead (England) has a lot of both”
You mean Yeshiva Gedola, one of several yeshivos in Gateshead.
It is true that they have a mixture in terms of the bochurim. Officially it was always supposed to be a third chassidish, not more, so as to retain the tzuro of a litvish yeshiva ( they say there is a machlokes between the hanholo if it is a shlish mil’gav or shlish mil’bar, ie 33% or 25%),
However in terms f the hashkofo of the yeshiva and the background of the hanholo, it is exclusively litvish,
The original question isn’t clear if he meant a mixture of bochurim or one where the hashkofo is a bit chasidish and a bit litvish, so I’m just clarifying.
i hear novominsk. maybe viyalpol.
Can you please find out more about lakewood mesivta?
What would you like to know about them?
Novominsk is in the US.
There is no objective standard by which one can judge a “good yeshiva”….just like hashgacha, where many consider only chassideshe hashgachos as “good enough” for someone who is machmir on kashrus, the are also some good litvish hashgachos. The “greatness” of a yeshiva is defined by its rabbonim and yungerleit…not by some artificial label of the affiliations of those rabbonim…
Very difficult question as terms need to be defined
1- Scholastically speaking , almost every chassidic yeshiva uses Lithuanian style lomdus, while Rav Tzadok ztl and other chassidic masters are very popular in Lithuanian yeshiva.There are various other chassidic influences on Lithuanian yeshiva philosophy.
2-Chabad considers itself just that.
3-Rav Shraga Feivel ztl built his yeshiva, Torah Vodaas, with this kind of synthesis in mind.I guess that first question you need to answer – are you discussing a mix in the student body, or a mix in the style of Yeshiva’s running?
There are way too many variables here that have no clear or standard definition.
Precisely what is the definition of “Chassidish”, “Litvish”, “Good Yeshivos”? Start with that, then we readers can suggest responses.
I will dare to say that the definitions to these terms have evolved over the past several decades, and some of the definitions and responses to this question will reflect the age of the responders.
TLIK, I would define a Litvish yeshiva as one which follows the mesorah of the great Litvish yeshivos in Europe, and a Chassidish yeshiva as one which follows the mesorah of the great Rebbes.
How old am I?
Daas, I’d say upper 30s, lower 40s.
Lakewood Mesivta is very lkarge & has a few classes in each greade versus most have only 1 class, they are also betten %65 to %75 chassidish although the rosh Yeshiva & dean are not at all chassidish. They do not have an english program & learn a full day although they are still high school boys (not sure how they get a diploma after 12th grade but could be they don’t worry cause at least %90 of the boys learning there stay learning for a long future ahead even after they get married)
DY:
Your comment has not helped much. Now define these two mesoros.
To start, since the subject is yeshivos, they have a different derech halimud. The Litvish put more emphasis on lomdus, the Chassidim more on b’kius and halachah. Of course, the Litvish don’t learn Chassidus.
There is a difference in mehalech hachaim. The Litvish tend to be more analytical and less emotional than Chassidim in their avodas Hashem.
The Litvish also tend to be less insular.
The Litvish also put a stronger emphasis on limud Torah than Chassidim, and the Chassidim more emphasis on tefillah, and probably more on chessed, than do the Litvish. That’s related to emotional/analytical mentioned above.
The chossid/Rebbe relationship is more important than the talmid/Rosh Hayeshiva relationship. Related to this is how to approach “daas Torah”.
All of this is still true, despite the fact that the two groups are much closer in these areas than they were hundreds of years ago.
There’s a huge middle ground of Klal Yisroel that’s of mixed heritage/approach between Litvish and Chasidish. They probably represent a majority of the frum world.
DY:
Nice try. You are a historian. We are in the midst of observing these two mesoros merging. A few examples.
* Just a single generation ago, an upsherin at age 3 was never found among the Litvishe community. Nor did boys wear payos. Only Roshei yeshivos wore beards. Colored shirts among baalei batim were the norm. Long malbushim and bend up hats were not for the average person. Today, these have all become the norm, to varying degrees.
* Just a single generation ago, the chassidishe communities were not interested in chodosh/yoshon, and there were very few kollelim in the chassidishe community. Today, these are norms. Chassidishe girls are as likely to seek “learning boys”.
There are still differences that are easily noted, but these are fading away. One can attend a chassidishe yeshiva, and hear as much about Reb Chaim Brisker as one hear about Chidushei Hari”m in Litvishe yeshivos. There remain levush differences, and the pronunciation of Hebrew is often different. But these have evolved much, and the process continues.
Who would have dreamt just 30 years ago that a Litvishe yeshiva would make an issue of white shirts during the week?
I specifically avoided talking about levush, because there are more important, less superficial, differences.
I agree, and stated, that they have come closer to each other, but they’re still further apart than you intimate.
A chassidishe rov once told me that learning R’ Chaim is bittul Torah because it’s not halachah l’maaseh (both aspects are untrue – it’s not bittul Torah regardless, and learning how to think is nogeia to paskening halachah l’maaseh).
Also, as an aside, not having peyos was a bow to modernity, not an act mesorah. The Vilna Gaon had peyos.
The Yekkes also had peyos. If you look at the pictures from Germany from the period of when photography was new, you’ll find completely Yekkishe Rabbonim with long twirly peyos like the Chasidim. And the Litvish wore shtreimals once upon a time in Lita itself along with a long jacket. The short jackets came about under Russian government pressure to look less Jewish and more Russian. Before that Litvaks and Chasidim didn’t dress differently.
The Chasidim simply never gave up the traditional Jewish dress. So if the Litvaks are now going back to what had been their traditional levush, all the more power to them. Beards were also universally found among Yidden of all persuasions, rabbinical and laymen. Going back to before we were forced to modernize is a positive for everybody.
The little that I know:
From what I remember thirty years ago the bochrim who considered themselves yesivish for the most part had peyos behind their ears like today. The VERY Yeshivish crowd had “Brisker Peyos” The percentage of kollel yungerleit who had beards was smaller but not so much smaller than today.The Chidusay Harim on Shas was commonly learned in Litvish yeshivos. (There is even a GRNA”T answering a kasha in it.)Long malbushim and bend up hats are no more common today than they were then. In fact frocks and homburgs are LESS common than thirty years ago in yeshivish circles.
viyolapel ison the heimash side. navominsk is also but its more litvish. Lakewood mesivta is a mix but he classes are huge. Stamford is litvish but excepts and has chassidem
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