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Was anyone bothered by Rav Lau, shlita, and Rav Yitchak Yosef, shlita, the two “Chief Rabbonim of EY” attending the ceremony today where where American Evangelicals prayed in the “name of Xesus”? On several occasions here, may have been critical of attending such events. Is the fact that the event was “political” rather than “religious” in nature and not held in a church make it OK?? I’ve also noted that Rav Shemtove, the senior Chabad rav in D.C. attend events with Trump where other goiyeshe pastors offer prayers…..
Is there a bright line test as to when its OK and when its not?
I guess since it’s on an ad hoc basis it’s mutar as opposed to an actual service in a structure dedicated to serving cheese-us.
What’s not OK about it? Any references to cite? Goyim need to pray their own way, and our presence is not an endorsement or approval. Anyone say different?
“Is the fact that the event was โpoliticalโ rather than โreligiousโ in nature and not held in a church make it OK??”
Yes.
GH
A few points.
1) I assume you are referring to the “prayer service” that took place at yankee stadium on 9/23/01. That was clearly different than thsi event which was an embasssy opening .
2) BH there are many yidden with varying opinions just because people get broigas. Doesnt mean they are right. I’m sure some will criticise these Rabbanoim too. Thats ok there is room for machlokes (as long as its leshem shomayim of course)
3) You say “.several big rabbonim” particiated in that event (though I believe you are mistaken) clearly they (if they exist) held that event was ok too.
4) In your OP you asked “Was anyone bothered” Yes I was bothered (though I do not recall anyone mentioning the actual name, just “messiah” perhaps I wasnt listening closely, and it might not be a big distinction) But being bothered doesn’t make it assurR’ Y. Perr of Far Rockaway related once [ if any details are inaccurate,someone correct me]
when he was a boy his father a noted Rabbi ,was called to attend some sort of political event with figures of other religionsAt the conclusion the Bishop stood up to say a prayer and everyone rose as well.
His father remained firmly in his seat and held him in his.
He asked his father afterwards about it. His father replied ‘To stand up would have been a Sha’aleh of Harog V’al Ya’avor’Rabbonim in lakewoodโ have get togethets and meetings in one of the local theatres. Is that ok?
mind.
May 14, 2018 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm#1520502REPLY
It is Time for TruthParticipant
Rโ Y. Perr of Far Rockaway related once [ if any details are inaccurate,someone correct me]
when he was a boy his father a noted Rabbi ,was called to attend some sort of political event with figures of other religionsAt the conclusion the Bishop stood up to say a prayer and everyone rose as well.
His father remained firmly in his seat and held him in his.
He asked his father afterwards about it. His father replied โTo stand up would have been a Shaโaleh of Harog Vโal Yaโavorโ
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Whats worse a “shaalah” of y’ahrog v’aal yavor or a “Definite” chillul hashem?You are conflating eivah with chillul Hashem.
Takes2
Where are you getting your definition of chilul hashem? Just because goyim may get upset, is not the definition of chilul hashem.
Not conflating anything. It was an outright chillul shem shamayim befarhesya!
You obviously don’t understand the concept of chillul Hashem.
Its not a concept, its a fact
Dor, I just saw the video (I presume that you are referring to Dr. Robert Jeffress). . He prayed to “the Gd of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”. At the very end he referred to that man as the “Prince of peace” and “our (a presume he meant Xtians) lord”. “Lord” can simply mean “leader”. If they want to consider him their rebbe I have no objection. BTW, another Chabad rabbi was right there with him and spoke right after him.
How does sitting at an event not in a church (which is ordinarily a problem of marit ayin that one is praying there unless it is obvious that one is not) imply agreement? Jeffress also praised Netanyahu and Trump. Does sitting there imply endorsement of either?
I see that Hagee spoke at the end and did not mention him at all.
Takes2-2tango
Doing a mitzvah can NEVER be a CH
Takes2-2tango:
What a mind-boggling corruption of the idea of chillul Hashem! How can opposing avodah zarah (or “shituf” at the very least) be a chillul Hashem?! This is the biggest kiddush Hashem!
When our forefather avraham ha’ivri opposed the entire world in his time and stood up for the one G-d was he making a chillul Hashem for not respecting and being tolerant of their beliefs??!! This is the arch-typical kiddush Hashem!
Amazingly, you seem to think “nihyeh kechol hagoyim” is a kiddush Hashem, and doing the job we chosen people were put into history to do is a chillul Hashem!
Making a kiddush Hashem is more than just being honest and upright and moral. It is mainly standing up for the basic fundamental beliefs which all mankind is required to have, and which they all will have when the moshiach comes.
Its not a concept, its a fact
You don’t even seem to know what the word fact means.
Dor,
1. Apparently he has done teshuva for his past statements.
2. How do you know about those split-screens? Do watch (please excuse the expression) TV? I saw at least some of the speeches on Arutz-7 and there was no split screen. In any case, you should blame the station manager not the chief rabbis. He is obviously some antisemite or self-hating Jew who wanted to ruin the public joy.Takes2
Can you please give us your definition of chilul hashem?
Its a ืืืื ืฉื ืฉืืื ืืคื ื ืื ืขื. There is no teshuva for this.
Its a ืืืื ืฉื ืฉืืื ืืคื ื ืื ืขื. There is no teshuva for this.
Repeating it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t. You are obviously not familiar with what the definition of chillul Hashem is.
What do you think it means?
Irony
Those who profoundly feel ืชืงื ืขืืื ืืืืืืช need now to somehow defend from those ‘pious’ attacks of those don’t?Seems Take 2 is not responding so I will. The main chillul Hashem is doing an avairah bifnay asarah meyisrael! Not ma yomru hagoyim; why didn’t that Jew stand up when our savior cheese-us was invoked.
Takes2
So ืื ืืื ( from ื ืืืืื ืฆืจ’ืก time) made a ืืืืื ื by not bowing down to the ืฆืื?
Pretty interesting.
I guess we should all try to make as much ืืืืื ื as we can. Maybe it will bring the ืืืืื for us just as it was ultimately the catalyst then.
I bet I can guess some other things you consider a ืืืืื ื
Men walking in the street in a hat and jacket.
Women walking in the street in the summer dressed ืฆื ืืข
Not answering your cell phone in public. (I mean every body answers so you look like you are inconsiderate to the one who called you. Total ืืืืื ื )
Not edging into the intersection as your light changes to red
Letting someone pull out of a parking spot. (because there last two examples the person behind you is honking like m
mad.yitzchokmParticipant
Takes2-2tangoDoing a mitzvah can NEVER be a CH
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Its called ืืฆืื ืืื ืืขืืืจื is a chillul hashem according to everyone especially is it was done in publicTakes2
Stop ignoring the question!
Please. State. Your. Definition. Of. Chilul. Hashem.
Dorahleh; You totally misinterpreted my post. You don’t know what ma yomru hagoyim means?
Also your post can be misunderstood to read that Rabbi Wolowik runs the Chabad house in 5 Towns together with the 2 galochim! That is obviously not what you meant. Reread your posts before hitting the submit button.
Re the awkwardness, I once heard an interesting story from Rabbi Manis Friedman. He was asked to speak to a Jewish woman who wanted to convert to Christianity. He asked her why she wanted to convert. She said that she discovered such beautiful scripture there. He asked her, such as? She said, like Psalms!!! She had no idea it was from our Tanach! So if the galach quotes Tanach it should be off limits to us? By the way I was proud that President Bush quoted Tehillim when he addressed the nation after the Sept 11 attacks. He quoted from the mizmor ledovid we sing at seuda shlishis. ืื ืื ืืื ืืืื ืฆืืืืช ืื ืืืจื ืจืข ืื ืืชื ืขืืื. Even though I walk in the valley of the shadow of death, I am not afraid because you are with me.The Rambam enumerates three types of chillul Hashem. The first is when someone refuses to give up his life when called for. The second is when one commits a sin not because heโs driven by his urges but pretty much out of spite.
The third category is what we typically mean when we talk about chillul Hashem: when someone who should know better acts in a fashion that is perceived to be beneath him. In a Talmudic discussion of what would constitute a chillul Hashem, Rav said it would be if he didnโt pay his butcher on time (Yoma 86a). Thatโs not such a grievous thing but coming from Rav, it reflects badly on Torah scholars. Each of us at our own level is responsible to strive to act upward and not stoop down.
The reason for this mitzvah is gratitude to God. He created us and gave us everything. How horrible would we be to act in a fashion that makes Him look bad and causes people to say, โThatโs how Jews act?โ or โThatโs how religious people act?โ The sin of making a chillul Hashem is so serious that the Talmud in Yoma (86a) tells us that neither teshuvah (repentance), Yom Kippur nor suffering can fully effect atonement for a person. A person cannot be fully cleansed of the taint of making a chillul Hashem until he has died.
This mitzvah applies to both men and women in all times and places. It is discussed in the Talmud in the tractates of Yoma (86a) and Sanhedrin (74a-b), and is codified in the Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deโah 157. This mitzvah is #63 of the 365 negative mitzvos in the Rambamโs Sefer HaMitzvos and #155 of the 194 negative mitzvos that can be observed today in the Chofetz Chaimโs Sefer HaMitzvos HaKatzar
DY, eiva and chillul Hashem do intersect. One can do a chillul Hashem without causing eiva (e.g. a Jew who cheats on his taxes). There can be eiva without chillul Hashem (if the anger remains personal). However, as every “religious” Jew represents Judaism they often go together. For example, in an article about the alleged legal violations by Chassidim in Brooklyn a certain newspaper pointed out sarcastically that he English translations is “pious ones”.
Dor, even paranoids have enemies. Why do you think that split-screen was shown? Many things are “newsworthy” but are not conflated on TV.
DY, eiva and chillul Hashem do intersect.
I didn’t say otherwise; I said (implied) that they’re not the same.
T2, you can continue to quote how bad chillul Hashem is, but that simply wasn’t.
Takes 2,Gadol et al
Leopold Stein and many of the early Reform used to make similar claims
These claims are hardly your ownOne can in theory make a chillul Hashem in any circumstance.One should be proper and polite to the Nazis on the way to the gas chambers or to the Spaniards on the way to auto de fe
The Rambam
wrote some strong anti-goyish religion things. He wasn’t too concerned about perhaps causing a Chillul
Was he?GH
” Instead, it was turned into a political event designed to play to the right wing base of both Trump and Bibi. ”I’m not sure why you say “instead” that was the whole point of the move. Trump didnt do it out of love for Jews it was an easy way to score points with a big chunk of his base.
Not that we shouldnt be thankful, as it was soemthing many of us wanted too.“There are many American evangelical leaders who also are big supporters of EY, Trump supporters but also donโt denigrate yidden and every other religious belief system other than their own. Enough said.”
That isnt quite true, they just arent as vocal. They believe that once all Jews are in ISrael the battle of Armeggeddon will occur and 2/3 will get killed and 1/3 embrace their messiah who will save us all.this isnt news, they are usually honest about this belief.
The debate is, whether to work with them and accept their support in the interim. I’m persoanlly for it, we can take an ysupport we can get and we will worry about Osa haish when he returns.*(* I’m being facetious I dont beleive he is returning)
Takes2
Nice. So you know how to copy and paste from the OU website. (Iโd provide the link but donโt want to upset the mods)
Chilul Hashem only comes into play if one is doing something wrong. If a Jew is acting in an appropriate manner, it doesnโt matter if the goyim like it or not. The goyim are not the arbiters of how weโre supposed to act.
GH, at times your naivety and hatred of Trump leads you to wrong conclusions. Virtually all Christians believe that heaven is only open to Christians. The evangelicals just happen to be more honest and vocal about it. The evangelicals just happen to be among Israel’s biggest supporters.
You seem to object to Trump playing to his right wing base. What’s your issue? the left wing is generally anti Israel, so why should he cater to them?Gadol, you object to the way the minister puts down Mormonism as a cult and disparages other religions. Isn’t that a case of the pot calling the kettle black? We orthodox rip each other in this coffee room and we all rip the non-orthodox . So, doed that make us equally guilty of making hateful statements?
Rabbonim in lakewoodโ have get-togethers and meetings in one of the local theatres. Is that ok?
There’s only one local theatre that I know of, the Strand. I’ve never heard
of rabbonim meeting there – if that’s indeed the case, it’s not advertised.
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