- This topic has 102 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Like most sane people I believe that Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd and he should go to jail. However, the probability that he will be found not guilty on murder charges just went up. It is also unlikely that the other 3 officers will be found guilty.
Third degree murder requires proof that he acted without regard for human life but did not intend to kill.
Second degree murder requires the prosecutor to prove Chauvin _intended_ to kill Floyd.As sick as what Chauvin did was, does anyone actually believe that’s what his intention were? Similarly, does anyone think the other 3 officers all intended for Floyd to die? More importantly, how can you prove it in court?
Because of public pressure the charges were upgraded and these men will likely be found not guilty of murder and the country will have to deal with another round of protests and possibly riots.The AG said today that
1. It will be difficult to convict on 2nd degree murder but…
2. This is in addition to the prosecution of 3rd degree murder charges. I think that means that even if they are unsuccessful with 2nd they can still convict on 3rd. But I am not a lawyer so I don’t know how that works.
3. The other officers were abetting him. One held down the knee one held down a different part of him and one made sure onlookers didn’t come near.Btw, you are saying that they cannot prove his intent. I am just curious how they ever prove a unpremedidated murder has intent. I am going to guess that they usually base intent on the method of murder. If so, kneing on someone’s neck isnt worse than fatally shooting someone in the arm. I am not a lawyer though.
Right when I heard the news I thought: Keith Ellison wants this man to go free so there should be more riots and chaos. Can we have the conspiracy theorists come out and back me up please
The video and audio and his actions while held Mr. Floyd down can show it was intentional but not premeditated.
He was unlikely to have been found guilty of 3rd degree murder anyway, so the radical antisemitic cop-killer-supporting AG probably decided to take a chance: if he can get a conviction despite not having a case he might as well make it a good one, and if he can’t then it’s no worse to lose on a 2nd degree charge than on a 3rd degree one.
And no, most sane people do NOT believe it was murder at all. The evidence indicates that the knee on the neck did not contribute to Floyd’s death, which would have happened no matter how he was restrained. He died of a heart attack, brought on in part by his poor health, in part by being high on a large dose of fentanyl, and in part by the stress of being restrained by the police — which they were 100% correct to do.
The worst Chauvin is guilty of is failing to take sufficient care of a person he knew to be in medical distress. Maybe he should have checked on him more frequently. But he’d already called an ambulance so even if he’d checked on him it’s not clear what he could have done that would have made any difference.
“He died of a heart attack,”
Source please
Milhouse,
“ most sane people do NOT believe it was murder at all.”
You don’t have to answer, but where on earth do you live?“ The evidence indicates that the knee on the neck did not contribute to Floyd’s death”
You haven’t yet explained where you got this from. The autopsy that came out after the police stopped lying said it was asphyxiation. Was the independent medical examiner lying? I’ve asked you this before and you didn’t answer.If Floyd was white and wearing a yarmulke and tzitzis, you’d be screaming about that vicious murderer anti-Semitic cop that wasn’t arrested until riots broke out. (Which they wouldn’t have, so the cop takeh would’ve gone free.)
For all you no intent whatsoever people, an officer called in a code 2, non emergency medical assistance, for a bleeding mouth. (Mouth wasn’t bleeding btw), a minute later an officer called in a code 3 (emergency medical assistance needed). After this Chauvin has his knee on Floyd’s neck And asks, “what’s the matter, man?”, Floyd says “I can’t breathe”. Chauvin responds “so get in the car”. Floyd says “I will”. Chauvin screams again “get in the car”. Floyd says again “I can’t move”. Chauvin says yet again “get in the car” At this point Floyd begins crying, “mama” Chauvin says again “get in the car” Floyd cries “mama”. Chauvin says “get in the car” Floyd said “I can’t” Chauvin “get in the car” Floyd gags and is silent.
Are you telling me that Chauvin didn’t realize that his knee is stopping Floyd from “getting in the car”? Or more likely, he was playing with Floyd.
The video showing clearly what happened from start to finish is called “How George Floyd Was Killed in Police Custody | Visual Investigations” on YouTube In the New York Times channel. (Yes, I know they are liberals and probably photoshopped the whole thing 😉 )
Fact check: The Minnesota Criminal Code states:
09.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.
609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:(1) by the person’s culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another;
Prosecutors tends to charge defendants with the most serious crime possible with an eye toward plea negotiations. This is generally true of bargaining situations. For example, a union will ask for a large pay raise whereas an employer will claim that no raise is possible.
1st degree murder = premeditated murder.
2nd degree murder = intended to kill, but not premeditated.
3rd degree murder = not intending to kill.The degrees of Manslaughter is Much more complicated.
Maybe I’ll post them tomorrow.Milhouse- define “sane”. Most competent people know this was murder. Minn police claim they don’t teach kneeling on necks, although their police tactics book online includes it. However, it states only if the suspect is exhibiting aggressive behavior or actively resisting arrest. Neither applied here.
I am not sure the initial kneeling is a crime, although I believe it’s wrong. But staying on Floyd, taunting him, and then not even moving after EMS showed up was a willful disregard of Floyd’s life. Whether heart attack or asphyxiation, even the medical examiners knew it was murder.
“He died of a heart attack,”
Source please
The autopsy.
The autopsy that came out after the police stopped lying said it was asphyxiation.
The medical examiner’s autopsy said it was NOT asphyxiation.
Was the independent medical examiner lying?
What “independent medical examiner”? There is only one medical examiner. If you mean Ben Crump’s hired quack, then yes, anyone working for Crump is NOT independent, and must be presumed to be lying whenever their lips are moving.
If Floyd was white and wearing a yarmulke and tzitzis, he would never have needed to be arrested in the first place, and if he was mistakenly arrested he would not have fought the police. He would not have been hopped up on fentanyl and meth. And if he had a serious heart condition he would have known not to fight anyone, even a mugger.
“which would have happened no matter how he was restrained.”
What is your proof of this?The proof is the autopsy, which said the cause of death was a heart attack brought on by his medical condition, his drug use, and the fact that he was being restrained. There was no asphyxiation, so the method of restraint was irrelevant.
Fentanyl is a sedative, people high on fentanyl are lethargic and sluggish.
And the latest craze is to use it together with meth, as he had been doing. But the medical examiner said he was actively on fentanyl, and had recently used meth. So the meth may or may not have been that day, but the fentanyl was definitely . (Speculation: When he saw the police coming for him he may have swallowed a large amount of fentanyl so as not to be caught with it, and the overdose may be what killed him.)
Most competent people know this was murder.
No, they really don’t.
even the medical examiners knew it was murder.
No, they didn’t say that at all. And how could they? A medical examiner can say what the cause of death was, but he is not competent to give an expert opnion on whether it was murder. He’s not an expert on the law.
Millhouse
“The autopsy.”
Sorry, neither the preliminary nor final version of the medical examiner’s autopsy nor the private autopsy ssaid he dies of a heart attack.
Do you have your own autopsy? where can it be accessed?
The medical examiner report said “cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.” There was never any mention of a heart attack
Milhouse- <i> There is only one medical examiner. If you mean Ben Crump’s hired quack, then yes, anyone working for Crump is NOT independent, and must be presumed to be lying whenever their lips are moving. </I>
Because someone working for the police has never lied? They need to paint him in a bad light to justify killing him. He was an addict, it was bound to happen because of his bad heart.
The 2nd autopsy was done by a team- Crump’s examiner (Baden- used in other cases of brutality like Garner, and Wilson- forensic pathologist for Uni of Minn). In both cases, whether seen as heart or asphyxiation, it was ruled a homicide. Unless we get a 3rd (4th, and 5th) autopsy to confirm the first 2, we don’t know which is true except that it was homicide, and that Chauvin used a tactic that was neither recommended by MPD, and purposely used long enough to kill him. His knee was still compressing Floyd after EMS arrived.
bk
“As sick as what Chauvin did was, does anyone actually believe that’s what his intention were? ”Here is why I think they had to bump up his charges:
The 3rd degree murder charge is a slam dunk, as several psoters pointed out any sane or competent person (and most insane and incompetent people too) recognize that holding a knee against the neck of a person who is not resisting is not ok (even if he had been resisting earlier)
That part is easy and straight forward.
Intent is harder to prove. clearly Chauvin had malicious intent (how else do you explain his telling Floyd “get up” and not letting floyd do so when he said “I will” “I cant move” ) but he can easily claim “I never intended to kill, I just wanted to rough him up, toy with him, a bit to teach him a lesson”
The harder part is the other officers. Thou looks like he served as the lookout making sure no bystanders came to save the victim (Someone argued he was outranked there was nothing he could do, that charge didnt fly in Nuremberg 1946, I doubt it would fly today “Just following orders” isnt a defense) .
Thus he seems to be aiding and abetting. But aiding and abbeting what? Negligent homicide ? that doesnt really make sense.
so they bumped up Chauvin;s charge to the harder to prove (but still plausible) charge
to answer the OP:
bk
“As sick as what Chauvin did was, does anyone actually believe that’s what his intention were? ”Here is why I think they had to bump up his charges:
The 3rd degree murder charge is a slam dunk, as several posters pointed out any sane or competent person (and most insane and incompetent people too) recognize that holding a knee against the neck of a person who is not resisting is not ok (even if he had been resisting earlier)
That part is easy and straight forward.
Intent is harder to prove. clearly Chauvin had malicious intent (how else do you explain his telling Floyd “get up” and not letting floyd do so when he said “I will” “I cant move” ) but he can easily claim “I never intended to kill, I just wanted to rough him up, toy with him, a bit to teach him a lesson”
The harder part is the other officers. Thou looks like he served as the lookout making sure no bystanders came to save the victim (Someone argued he was outranked there was nothing he could do, that charge didnt fly in Nuremberg 1946, I doubt it would fly today “Just following orders” isnt a defense) .
Thus he seems to be aiding and abetting. But aiding and abbeting what? Negligent homicide ? that doesnt really make sense.
so they bumped up Chauvin;s charge to the harder to prove (but still plausible) charge
bk
yes for sure schnitzel is correct too, otherwise it would be far to great a risk .
Avi K -“Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others
609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another ”I don’t think a Jury can convict on anything! There are multiple reasons he’s dead. The Official Autopsy doesn’t pinpoint one over the other. No normal Jury, I repeat NO Normal JURY can convict!
You need – Beyond a reasonable doubt. Who said he didn’t Die from the drugs & his Heart problems?
This CHARGE is a Total FARCE!bk613 -“Do you really expect anyone to believe that Floyd would have died if he wasn’t restrained like that for 9 minutes?”
Don’t put words in my mouth! To convict they must prove that the Neck Restraint caused his Death. (Which it DIDN’T.)
Like I said you Need a Honest Jury. I hope they don’t get OJ’s Jury – that found him innocent!Can we all ignore Health on the topic of Chauvin’s guilt?
He seems to believe that, even though Floyd would not have died if Chauvin hadn’t restrained him like that and now that Chauvin did restrain him Floyd did die, Chauvin didn’t cause his death.So, you don’t like his extremism so it’s okay to ask everyone here to ignore him? I’ve been bothered by most of your posts on this topic and don’t feel it’s my place to rally a silent protest against you. Is this to bully hom onto silence? Is this a just what happens when you empathize so much with a group that you pick up on their negative behaviors as well?
Syag,
Well, I’ve already said that there is no changing my mind on that topic, and seeing as you don’t view what I said in the other thread as making any sense, I would understand if you decided to ignore me in that thread.When someone is simply repeating the same dumb idea over and over without even bothering to listen to logic, then it is time to end the debate. If he is willing to listen to your point of view, then we continue the conversation.
DMB -“now that Chauvin did restrain him Floyd did die, Chauvin didn’t cause his death.”
Why do say he did cause his DEATH? Do you have any proof?
Btw, I read the Final Autopsy Report and besides the LIES Written here and elsewhere, it doesn’t say that definitely that the cause of death was the Restraint. It lists multiple Causes.“When someone is simply repeating the same dumb idea over and over without even bothering to listen to logic, then it is time to end the debate”
Right. Which is not the same as rallying everyone to actively ignore him as well. That’s plain disgusting.
Dear Syag,
Health has been backed into a corner that defies logic, (self-contradiction) yet he insists on maintaining his position. We could discus the extreme position, but his take on the facts; that is beyond reason. Also, nobody is obligated to bring facts to an online forum. There is only so much that a faceless dialog can hold. For example, I can have good reason to think that the video is fake. But am unable to say why in public.No- not sure what you are responding to. I told him that asking the posters to join him in ignoring someone is wrong.
He responds by telling me why he wants to ignore him.
I repeat: asking posters to join you in ignoring someone is a bullying tactic. It’s wrong.
“I repeat: asking posters to join you in ignoring someone is a bullying tactic. It’s wrong.”
Completely agree.
Comments are there for all to see you say “Health has been backed into a corner that defies logic, (self-contradiction) ” Let people determine that
DMB you say “When someone is simply repeating the same dumb idea over and over without even bothering to listen to logic, then it is time to end the debate”
so end the debate, you do not have to add any more comments if you don’t want to .
If you are afraid of “ceding the last word” you can end off with something to the effect of pointing out that another poster is simply unaware or misrepresenting the facts (which is clearly true) and that further discussion is futile
If other posters agree they don’t have to continue the discussion if they don’t they can
. but rallying the troops to ignore someone is wrongOk, I’m sorry. You can continue to try to convince Health of your point. I personally am finished repeating the same points over and over.
Woah, do you really nit get it?!
Nobody said to continue responding to health. We said it is WRONG for you to ASK OTHER POSTERS to IGNORE him.How is this not clear?
“ Ok, I’m sorry. You can continue to try to convince Health of your point.”
Try this, “I’m sorry for trying to bully a poster for having a different opinion”
Health, here is the report by CBS News:
“George Floyd, the Minnesota man who died after an officer arresting him pressed his knee onto his neck, died by homicide, according to the results of two autopsies released on Monday — one by the county medical examiner and the other by independent pathologists commissioned by Floyd’s family. But the two autopsy reports differed on exactly how the man died.
Dr. Allecia Wilson, one of the pathologists who conducted the independent autopsy, said Monday afternoon that Floyd died as a result of mechanical asphyxiation.
But the report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office said Floyd died of ‘cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.'”Moreover, Chauvin and Floyd worked together as bouncers. How well he knew him is not yet known. In any case, even he did not know about Floyd’s medical issues if a healthy person would have died from it it would not make a difference. If it can be proven that Chauvin had some personal grudge against Floyd the prosecution might just be able to get him on an even more serious charge. Maybe even murder one. You can google “What is premeditated and deliberate conduct?” on Nolo.
Avi K -“Moreover, Chauvin and Floyd worked together as bouncers. How well he knew him is not yet known.”
Why assume that? The media asked that question to the owner. She said she Didn’t know.According to the owner of the club where they both worked, they worked at different times and probably never shared a shift together. Also the owner said that Chauvin was much harder on black clients vs other races.
Avi K -“But the report released later Monday by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner’s office said Floyd died of ‘cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.’”
Did you read it? That’s the LIE e/o says, including this Website.
I actually Read it.
You have to understand who the AG of Minn. is!
He’s a Friend of Farrakan & a Muslim, who doesn’t like Jews.“Did you read it? ”
Yes.
That is a verbatim quoteand you are a bit suspect, you claimed you watched the video when you clearly hadn’t , and here ou are denying what is written in black and white (literally) for all to see.
“You have to understand who the AG of Minn. is!
He’s a Friend of Farrakan & a Muslim, who doesn’t like Jews.”
I don’t follow so therefore we should lie about what the autopsy report says?Ubiq -“I don’t follow so therefore we should lie about what the autopsy report says?”
Just like this LIE!
“That is a verbatim quote”To e/o else who DIDN’T Read the autopsy Report:
“cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.”
This is the TITLE of the Report.
Then it goes on to say there was Multiple reasons for his DEATH.
It lists Drugs (some Illegal), restraint, Heart problems, etc.
He’ll get a conviction – if it’s a Dishonest Jury!Health, that is an ad hominem argument. I sentence you to take an introductory course in Logic. Besides, the AG didn”t issue the report. The ME and an independent specialist did.
Health
““cardiopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint and neck compression.”
This is the TITLE of the Report.”Yep it is A title serves as sort of a summary of the report. A report titled “The many lies of health” will list many lies health has told
The report does not list drugs as a specific cause of death. In fact it doesnt list a “cause of death at all. Outside of the title .
The report lists ALL the medical findings
I -blunt force injuries
II Natural diseases
III No Life threatening diseases identified
IV viral testing …
V Hemoglobin S….
VI toxicologyAre you suggesting they mean one of the causes of death was covid-19? Having sickle cell trait ? the mucosal injury on lip? All these are listed in the exact same manner as the toxicology
not all the findings listed in the report are causes of death.AND
even if they were
Chauvin is STILL guilty as you helpfullly point out “Then it goes on to say there was Multiple reasons for his DEATH. It lists Drugs (some Illegal), restraint”So restraint did contribute to his death. If I shoot someone and he dies because he has a serious heart condition that plays a role. It would be an absurd to try to defend that well a younger healthier person may have survived that gunshot wound so ubiq is innocent.
bottom line if if those other factors did play a role (and they may have) if not for the unwarranted and illegal restraint Floyd would be aliveUbiq -“bottom line if if those other factors did play a role (and they may have) if not for the unwarranted and illegal restraint Floyd would be alive”
I sure hope you Don’t practice medicine – the way You understand Law.
You put your emotions into it.Here is the Law:
“The difference between third-degree murder and manslaughter often depends on the defendant’s state of mind at the time of the killing. In Minnesota, for example, someone can be convicted of manslaughter in the second degree if they knew they were unreasonably risking someone else’s life and took that chance. This is different from third-degree murder, where the person must act with a depraved mind and malice (wanton disregard for human life)”
You definitely can’t charge him on the 3rd degree. His mind was to arrest a perp.
On the Manslaughter charge, his defense will be – the PERP was resisting & his actions were consistent with Police Protocols at that time!Health
Im not sure if something got transposed in your reply (it often happens to me so I understand complelty)
the reply you wrote does not in any way relate to the opening line.What I replied was even if Foyd’s comorbidities played a signficant role in his death (whcih they very well may have) that would in no way lessen the culpability of the perp who murdered him
In your last comment you were mistakenly under the impression that if there were multiple factors at play in a victim’s death the perp gets to walk. Sort of a zeh vezeh gorem. This claim does not hold water.
I’m glad that is settled.On to the actual charge. you do raise a good point. This may answer the OP’s question.
3rd degree murder may be harder to prove due to the “depraved mind and malice (wanton disregard for human life)””
2nd degree on the other hand just got easier. There is no question that the perp Chauvin was committing a felony. It is impossible to argue he was merely tring to get floyd to comply while simutaneulsy preventing him from complying (The victim said several times he would get in the car but couldn’t because of the knee in his neck) While committing this felony on Floyd sadly he died
“the PERP was resisting ”
that would never fly if anyone saw the tape. unconscious people cannot resisit.
I thought you were finally going to watch it? wh y do yo u keep saying things that the tape shows not to be true?Ubiq -“This claim does not hold water.”
Your wrong.
“2nd degree on the other hand just got easier”
You mean on 2nd degree Manslaughter?Health
“Your wrong.”
citation needed“You mean on 2nd degree Manslaughter?”
no I mean the added charge of second degree murder:
Under Minnesota law this includes: “the death of a human being, without intent … while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense.”
Chauvin committed a felony offense when he assaulted floyd (the fact that Floyd resisted arrest a few minutes prior is not license to freely assault him later on) In the process of commiting this felony he unintentionally (I assume) killed Floyd.
Ubiq -“Chauvin committed a felony offense when he assaulted floyd (the fact that Floyd resisted arrest a few minutes prior is not license to freely assault him later on) In the process of commiting this felony he unintentionally (I assume) killed Floyd.”
Do you work for the Lying Muslim AG?
If NOT, Why post Lies?!?
The PD had to remove him from patrol car because he couldn’t behave in it.
That’s when Chauvin got involved.
FYI, when you resist, the Police are legally allowed to restrain, including the Neck Restraint.
They took it out of the Police Protocols after the death of Floyd.
You can only release restraint when s/o can take over the custody of the Perp.
In this case, it was EMS.
Here is the law in Minn. for 2nd Degree murder:
“1. Killing a human intentionally, but without premeditation (not thinking about or preparing for before)
2. Killing a human while committing or attempting a drive-by shooting
3. Causing someone’s death without intending the death of anyone, while committing a felony other than criminal….. conduct ….or a drive-by shooting
4. Causing a death unintentionally, while intentionally inflicting or attempting to inflict great physical harm on the victim when the murderer is currently restrained by a protection order (including for domestic violence, harassment, divorce, or any similar protection order) and the victim was the protected party in that order”
So you see how Libs Lie to fit their AGENDA!“Do you work for the Lying Muslim AG?”
no“If NOT, Why post Lies?!?”
no lies
“The PD had to remove him from patrol car because he couldn’t behave in it.”
a. I’m not sure how you know that
b. Even if that is the case, how does that allow for assault after he is unconscious?“FYI, when you resist, the Police are legally allowed to restrain, including the Neck Restraint.”
Yep. Key word …”WHEN YOU RESIST” not after
“They took it out of the Police Protocols after the death of Floyd.’
The internet has a long memory. If police protocols allowed for assaulting unconcious suspects it would have come up by now. you are making this up.
“You can only release restraint when s/o can take over the custody of the Perp.”
source please
“Here is the law in Minn. for 2nd Degree murder:….”
thanks I already cited the releent part to you.
“…. 3. Causing someone’s death without intending the death of anyone, while committing a felony other than criminal….. conduct ….or a drive-by shooting….”So you see how Libs Lie to fit their AGENDA!”
No sorry I do not. I do see how I correctly cited the law implicating the perp Chaauvin
Thank you Health, for resupplying the relevent code confirming without question Chauvin’s guilt:
guilty as charged.Ubiq -“I’m not sure how you know that”
The Video.
For s/o who claims he watched the video – I Guess you didn’t watch all of them.“b. Even if that is the case, how does that allow for assault after he is unconscious?”
Again he probably didn’t know that. It was a Volatile Scene. He probably saw his eyes closed – SO WHAT?
When EMS came he gave over care to them.“source please”
I worked in NYC EMS. The rules & laws are probably the same all over.
Just like – you can’t commit murder in the US.“thanks I already cited the releent part to you.
“…. 3. Causing someone’s death without intending the death of anyone, while committing a felony other than criminal….. conduct ….or a drive-by shooting….”Stop LYING! Placing a guy under arrest with Restraint, when two minutes ago he was Resisting, is Legal, Not a Felony! No Matter how many Times you POST THAT!
Health, the neck restraint IS Not generally allowed unless the officer reasonably believes that his life is in danger. I reiterate, there should be follow up on the fact that they worked together as bouncers. In fact, between 1980 and 2008 56.4% of all homicides were committed by acquaintances. Another 7.1% were committed by spouses and other partners. Other family members accounted for 10,9%. People held grudges and decided to be judge, jury and executioner.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.