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I’m posting this question out of genuine concern and confusion…
My wife’s cousin just got engaged (Mazel tov! Mazel tov!). His family is orthodox, but the boy left his family 3 years ago, enrolled in a Chareidi yeshiva in Yerushalayim (don’t ask which one, I won’t tell you, but it’s an offshoot of Brisk), and barely has contact with his family. He’s been to our house in Yerushalayim a couple of times to say ‘hi.’ We found out last week that he got engaged. Here are the details that are scaring us, and he claims this is normal for his community, please calm or affirm our fears…
He went on 4 dates with the girl. That in itself isn’t unusual, we’re modern orthodox and I only had 6 official dates with my wife of 10 years. They were set up by a shadchan… all good. The girl is from a respected family from New Jersey, she is learning in a Bais Yaakov seminary (don’t know which) and will be a teacher. She’s fully behind the boy’s learning full time and supporting him. OK so far. Anyway… on 3 of the 4 dates, the girl said NOTHING. Did not utter a word! They went out to eat, but she ate nothing but water. It wasn’t until the last date that she said anything, and it was brief “small talk” from what I’m told. After 4 dates he had to decide whether to propose, and based on what he saw “on paper” and probably the recommendations of his rabbeim, he proposed. Now, they’re only allowed to see eachother at 3 Shabbat meals, and talk once for 45 minutes each week until their wedding in August.
Is this normal? I guess it could work out, but it just doesn’t sound right. Either he’s not telling us something (like he was pressured), or he’s not being told something (there’s something wrong with the girl), or we’re that out of touch with our Chareidi neighbors.
Thanks for the serious advice. Only 30% smart-alek answers please.
The Rashbak
If she stays that way throughout the marriage, they should be fine.
On a more serious note, what scares me here is the lack of parental input. I would be terrified if my kids got married this way, but people do it, based on solid research and brief meetings. Many chassidim have a half hour meeting, and mazel tov. If there’s solid research here, and she’s just shy, this might not be any worse.
My question for you is, what input do you have? If none, I would say you can only do harm by voicing your qualms.
it seems with what you wrote that he was ready & proposed only because his rav says its normal to be nervous & therefore you can propose already. (even though he didn’t feel ready) which means he is still not in a relaxed mode for makin the decision to propose & nervous that anything can happen
Hope everything goes smooth & great at the end MAZEL TOV
Rashbak, my concern is not with the amount of dates or any other protocol issues you mentioned. My concern is with an aspect of chareidi shidduchim that many people prefer not to discuss or take into consideration. In my experience this is just how things are, but I may be ducking some virtual rotten tomatoes if anyone bothers to read this. I suggest that you do, Rashbak. Let me explain:
Although chareidim do allow the parties to meet and see each other, and as a result there is an element of considering whether they find each other attractive or feel comfortable with one another’s personalities, there is much more of an element of mekach u’mimkar- more of a business deal if you like. Guys and girls are graded (by shadchanim and by society in general) based on their family’s social standing, wealth, yichus, and also based on their own achievements in yeshiva/seminary, their appearance and popularity. Physical traits, intelligence, personality will move them up or down the shadchan’s desirability scale, but their family will also have a big influence on what shidduchim they’re being redt. Even a sibling who is divorced or ill will move them down a few notches.
Your relative comes into this at a disadvantage due to his coming from a “different” type of family. Even if he himself is an outstanding Masmid and a great guy, he’s not coming to this from the top of the ladder. You have to wonder if the girl has any disadvantages (she probably does) and what the nature of those disadvantages is. If she’s from a similar background, that’s your best picture. If she’s from a solid chareidi family, I would suggest you try to do a bit of inquiring to determine whether she has any issues that may have made her less suitable for someone from a mainstream “chashuv” chareidi family like her own.
Mazel Tov, and hope all goes well!
If the boy says he doesn’t know her and is nervous, then he was pressured in to it. That does NOT mean it cannot work, but your fears are understandable. This is the norm for some shadchanim but not necessarily the norm for chareidim. Not all shadchanim pressure but it clearly seems that this one did.
Mazal Tov!
major red flag. No, it is not normal that he has no idea if he thinks she’s for him nor does he know anything about her and is marrying her on someone else’s say so. He is not chassidish and his parents have not checked her out. Sure, it could turn out OK…just like you could cross the street blindfolded and conceivably get to the other side in one piece. Not highly recommended as the preferable way to cross the street.
My kids are all married, 6. BH for many years. They met their spouses twice. Once for maybe an hour or so. The second time when we made a l’chaim. The 3rd time at the vort. The 4th time after the chupa. That’s a normal chasidish way of getting married. We did our homework and that’s about it. And relied on Hashem.
That make me question is SHE interested or just feels she has to settle because of her brother? Because if she is not interested, how can she be a good wife doing her job willingly when she actually doesn’t want to be married to him. Some Sfardim and Ashkenazim are happily married but i guess they wanted it and not just pressured into it.
My question though is, why does he davka want to be Ashkenazi? Why didn’t he look for a Sfardi? What does he have against Sfardim?
Sounds off. does he talk? youre right to be concerned but have no clue what you can do. Assuming he spoke to his rebbi/rosh yeshiva about it but if he didnt then that’s probably the best place to turn.
I think the point here is not the amount of dates and how many the Chassidishe have, but the fact that the girl did get a few dates and said nothing on most of them – which I don’t think would be the norm anywhere. It definitely doesn’t have to indicate anything serious ch”v, but it does call to be looked into. Mazal tov and Bsuros tovos!
On three of the four dates the girl said nothing? Red flag.
This is not usual shyness. Effectively, he went on one date with her. And then got engaged.
I would be very concerned about the personality of someone who doesn’t speak on the first three dates. Is she perhaps selectively mute?
Also, it’s great that the parents get along, but that’s like 10% of the shidduch, and that’s being generous. What about the other 90%? Shared goals, attraction, liking the other’s peronality, communication, ability to navigate disagreements…?
It seems like he doesn’t know much about her at all. Why get engaged like that?
I retract. Girl not talking on the dates is not a red flag. It is a MAJOR red flag, IMO.
I retract. Girl not talking on the dates is not a red flag. It is a MAJOR red flag, IMO.
How do you know? This is a different culture than you live in.
I retract. Girl not talking on the dates is not a red flag. It is a MAJOR red flag, IMO.
How do you know? This is a different culture than you live in.
I retract. Girl not talking on the dates is not a red flag. It is a MAJOR red flag, IMO.
How do you know? This is a different culture than you live in.
Someone I know went out quite a few times with hardly a word passing between them. They were advised to continue, and eventually they were as to open up.
They are both very normal, though their initial “chemistry” seemed to bring out the shyness in both.
They are now b”H happily married and raising a beautiful family.
So, no, awkwardness and shyness doesn’t have to be a red flag. In American yeshivish culture, in such a situation, they either end it there, or agree to keep trying for longer.
In Israeli chareidi culture, perhaps it’s never allowed to go that far. I may not agree with or fully understand that approach, but it’s not a huge red flag to me, and I don’t know that there’s any shidduch crisis or sholom bayis crisis in that community any more than any other community.
In what culture would this be the usual? Just wondering. I’m not familiar with the yeshivish norms, but I’ve never heard a story like this in Chasidish circles, with our limited dating practices and all.
i believe you should wait until you meet them together. then decide once seeing their relationship/and way of communication if it is shayach or not. but I still feel that not talking on 3 of the 4 dates is more than shy and a little weird/perhaps a red flag. I feel that she might be a great girl but isn’t fully set/emotionally comfortable in her belief of chassidus or judiasim or Hashem. but this is all just my opinion.
Who told you she actually didn’t say a word on the first dates? What did they do the entire time? Are you sure there was no exaggeration?
Also, I am quite familiar with the Chareidi Israeli dating culture and in my opinion it’s not that different from yeshivish norms in America.
ha! i figured out the yeshiva in about….a second
Toi: What are yoou trying to say? You were matzliach in getting the op to speak Loshon Hara.
This is not a red flag if she gets along well with his mother.
Girls are made out of jello, they mould into whatever they marry (sometimes into the same shape, and sometimes into the border shape). Makes no difference that she didn’t speak on dates if he is sufficiently happy to commit to her.
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