- This topic has 187 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Joseph
I heard next Shabbos, Temple Ohelei Kesef is having a “mixed marriage alternative wedding” serving Lobster served by people dressed as pirates. Maybe you should go into the sanctuary and give them tochcha during the “ceremony”
The Service is being perfomed by Rabbi Christina Cohen
Rebyid” “If I were to meet a serial killer or abuser, any actions I would take would be solely to protect myself and others, not to reprimand him for killing or abusing.”
lol, literally.
yeah, I really don’t think it’s such a good idea to give tochacha to a serial killer. As for the abuser, the only tochacha I would give is that he should get psychological help asap. I don’t think anything else would be too helpful.
“So a good Yid can go around with an Afro, t-shirt, torn jeans and no socks while speaking Ebonics to his friends who call him Tipper?”
ZD: “Absolutly ,
And A Rasha can go around wearing a Bechasha, Streimel, gartel, Speak Yiddish and only eat hemish Foods, and never have learned secular studies
How you Dress does not make you a good or bad yid”
+1. (which is not to say that there is not an inyan to dress in a certain way – just to say that you can’t judge others by the way they are dressed).
We were commanded to wipe the cana’anites out!
The cana’anites ,according the Medrash and
as per archaeology ,were tolerant, pluralistic peoples’!
How come?!
Lilmod, Tipper with his Afro, torn jeans and no socks might be a tzaddik?
definitely! Personally, I probably wouldn’t go out with him :), but that doesn’t mean he can’t be a tzaddik.
Time,
1. according to the Ran (Derasha 5) they had bad middot.
2. According to Rambam (Hilchot Melachim 6:5)they were given the chance to leave or accept our rule (presumably the sheva mitzvot). Apparently he held that that was their main sin.
Avi. K,
1)Go ahead
Define what are “Bad Midot”
They were ‘Ohavim zeh es zeh’ [as their ancestor Cana’an, on his deathbed, instructed them]
2)Precise.
When they are in our midst…
While we aren’t obligated to go abroad to slay dragons for that we instead were supposed to be an unimpeachable ” City upon a hill”
zdad,
Reduced to silly jokes ,eh?
It is brought down [in two sources at least]that the egregious mortal evil of Amalek which we must battle to the death was their flaunting homosexuality
The Chofetz Chaim ,as is well known stated that Amalek also includes people of Jewish extraction
cf. kovetz ma’amarim
..Those still on the sidelines ought to bear that in mind
Time,
1. Learn Pirkei Avot. I would say that asribing oneself a the sole expositor of truth (in Russian “pravda”) is an example.
2. Actualy those were the sins of Egypt, against which the Torah warns us. Thus the people cried on Mt. Sinai.
3. If the dragons turn into cute pets we adopt them.
Its was not meant to be a silly joke, however it was meant to show that it really is virtually impossible at this time , Giving tochcha most likey will only most likely not work, but will frequently backfire and you will pay the price. Just look at all those people who have been sued and put out of business for refusing to bake a cake
Zdad,
nice means of clearing through the brush a way of retreat
What is our purpose?
Are we filing chap.11 on our mission?
Furthermore,in a yehorag va’al ya’avor situation if someone succumbs and doesn’t give up their life they are fully accountable, if they were potentially able to escape prior .We ( including you)were able to stop this movement and we still at the moment can stop parts of it if we are mentally arise and plan legally and through voting against these low lives and put in decent people, who push decent legislation.
If we don’t do this we are responsible for all their actions that come from or wrong actions or lack of actions.
Imagine if the maccabbees would have retreated to their private affairs as most jews of that era considered reasonable and realistic
“War is sorrowful, but there is one thing infinitely more horrible than the worst horrors of war, and that is the feeling that nothing is worth fighting for…”
“The difficult we do immediately; the impossible takes a little longer.”
It is true that you have to be very wary of giving tochacha. Especially nowadays when few people know how to give tochacha and few know how to accept it.
So you are right about that, ZD. However, the issue is not about whether or not you will lose your job (as Time pointed out). That is self-centered. The issue is what is the most effective way to influence this particular person. That is the issue of concern here. And in most cases of alternative lifestyles, tochacha is unlikely to be very helpful.
If it does come up in a conversation (brought up by him, not you), you should not be afraid or embarrassed to acknowledge (firmly yet kindly) the Torah’s position on the topic, while being sympathetic to his situation.
Persistence. Tenacity
Those are the most important values as any statesman could have told you.
See also chazal on Bamidbar 28:4 who consider it one of the three most important psukim in the Torah.
” most likey will only most likely not work, but will frequently backfire and you will pay the price”
1)In most case you are obligated anyway
” The only thing required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing”
edited, again. You have been asked to change your tone and approach more than once.
Usually it doesnt come up in a conversation, you just know.
Most such people you will come into contact fall in the following categories
R’L Close friends and family. I know a few frum people in that circumstance and I am not going to touch it
A co-worker. If you say ANYTHING, you can either be reprimanted or fired. Most companies have policies that prevent you from saying or doing anything (and they cannot say anything to you either)
A potential client. If you say anything, they will just take their business elsewhere. do what you want, there is nothing illegal for them to take their business elsewhere
Lightbrite, according to Rav Soloveichik Amalek is any ideological anti-Semite.
LB, Amalek inside of us is what we can deal with now. It is a good analogy, but there will come a time, byz”H soon, that Moshiach will come and we will be able to fulfill the mitzvah of mechias Amalek. We just have to know 100% sure who is really Amalek, and only Moshiach can tell us that. So in the meantime, we have rabbis who give shiurim that give us different ways to interpret the issue, but it is definitely not going to eliminate the original purpose of the mitzvah.
ZD – when I said “comes up in a conversation” I wasn’t referring to their personal actions. I didn’t mean “if they start talking about what they do”. I meant if they bring it up as a philosophical discussion – for example, if they ask you your opinion on this issue. But you’re right – even then it can be sticky, especially if you are dealing with relatives, and especially if it’s a personal issue for the person.
Each situation is different and requires a lot of thought as to the best way to handle that particular situation. So it is not really possible to talk about what should be done in any specific given situation.
My point was simply that one should not be embarrassed or uncomfortable sticking up for the Torah’s point of view. When dealing with not-Frum people, it can be hard not to feel uncomfortable or apologetic. Especially in today’s pluralistic mind-set. That is where LB’s comment about Amalek comes into play. We have to make sure that we are unaffected by the world around us, and we have no problem sticking up for the Torah, and most importantly, we are not uncomfortable or embarrassed about our beliefs. And this is a challenge for everyone.
How this plays itself out in a specific situation will depend on many factors. But the important thing is that if you choose not to say something in a given situation, it should not be out of discomfort or embarrassment or even a “live-and-let-live” attitude, but only because you don’t think it will be helpful to say anything in this particular situation.
And if you do choose to say anything, it should not be out of hatred or judgmentalism, but only out of love for the person, passion for the emes of Torah, and a desire to stick up for the Torah and to help the person come closer to Hashem.
Ive never met anyone who was one of them where it was a philosophical discussion. It was either told to me in passing (Not that they told me they were committing any specific Averiah) only that they felt that way. They might tell me directly that they were leading an “Alternative Lifestlye) but not they committed any Averiahs from Vayikra specifically
Or their mannerisms are such that give off that they are such a person, You do not need to ask.
And BTW just like on the Job you are not allowed to quote Psukim in Vayikra about this Averiah, They are not allowed to tell you that the bible is fake and “Phobic” against certain kinds of people. They will get in trouble for that.
It is possible you might see someone being Mechalal Shabbos or eating at McDonalds. You are unlikely too see anyone doing averiahs specified in Vayaikra even if you suspect they are Oyver them
The Chofetz Chaim ,as is well known stated that Amalek could also includes people of Jewish extraction
He stated the bolsheviks fall under the rubric , Due to their anti religious anti societal anti family principles
He regretted that he failed to fight them with guns during the Russian Revolution
cf. kovetz ma’amarim
“It is possible you might see someone being Mechalal Shabbos or eating at McDonalds. You are unlikely too see anyone doing averiahs specified in Vayaikra even if you suspect they are Oyver them “
There are massive differences
1)
These are of the 7 mitzvos bnei noach
2)There is no din of tinok shenishba for Noachide commandments
3)These are part of a societal or global Poretz Gidros Olam
(the first person in a shtetl to publibly be mechalel shabbos or have eaten treif would also have been a poretz geder with all that then would apply)
It happened to me once with a student when I was working with kids-at-risk. He was Frum and knew it was assur so that wasn’t really the topic of discussion. I pointed out to him that if the Torah assurs something, that might mean that everyone has the potential to have a yetzer hara for it, although it may come out stronger in some people because of nature and/or nurture. He liked that response. He didn’t like the fact that I disagreed with him about there being a specific gene. I also gave him an article from aish.com that dealt with the issue. He really liked the article.
This case was different because he was Frum and was not disputing the fact that it’s assur. And it’s true that these kinds of conversations don’t come up with most people. But they can, although it may be rare. There are some people who are the type of people who people tend to open up with and start interesting conversations with. Also, I think it would be more likely to happen in Israel, since people are more likely to have hashkafic discussions here and also they are more likely to realize (at least on some level) that it’s assur. Also, if someone works in kiruv, these conversations are VERY likely to happen.
But again, what you say and how you say it really has to do with the context and nature of the conversation as well as who you are talking to. You always have to use your seichel. And you should always try to be sympathetic and non-judgmental (about the person – you can be judgmental about the actions).
Avi K.
1) Go on,Finish the rest of Avot
2)Wrong.Mitzraim was although similar, less egregious
Lilmod Ulelamaid,
If
1)The person feels some guilt
2)Doesn’t flaunt it
3)Doesn’t from umbrella with the “Rainbow” coalitions
“There is no din of tinok shenishba for Noachide commandments”
That may be so regarding the way Hashem judges them, but I don’t think it takes away from our Mitzvah of “Ve’ahavta l’raecha kamocha”.
Lilmod Ulelamaid,
The Gemora disagrees
continued..
although it does depend on the specific situation
Time,
1. Rav Chaim Brisker raised money to save a Bundist who tried to kill a Czarist general.
2. Who says that there is no din tinnok shenishba by Noahides?
3. Are you volunteering to be the snake to bite portzei gader?
4. Mitzarayim and Kenan were equal (Sifra Achrei Mot Parsha 9).
There are some indigenous peoples who never heard of the bible or if they heard of it, it came from missionaries and they might be negatively inclided towards it. Are you going to say someone who never heard of the Bible is not a Tinok Shenesba?
Zdad, AFAIK Tinok Shenishba refers to a Jew.
Tinok Sh. is not a concept used in relation to non-Jews who are required to keep 7 Mitzvos B’nei Noach.
That’s a pretty big “AFAIK” though. This is a serious subject and you don’t want to take my word for it.
Even I don’t want to take my word for it.
Unfortunately it looks like the more learned posters- the ones who can give us actual sources and proofs- are bored of, or uninterested in, this discussion.
The logical question to follow is how are they supposed to know the 7 Mitzvos? Are we expecting they would just figure them out their own?
It seems to me we’re expecting these Mitzvos to be the norm in civilized society. That’s if there is such a thing as civilized society in the secular world today. That would depend on how we define “civilized”.
If it’s enough to be connected in at least 3 ways to social media and to carry that connection around in your pocket wherever you go, then much of society today is civilized.
If we begin to impose certain behaviors and attitudes as a prerequisite for being called civilized, then I’m afraid we’re going to be wandering the streets like Yirmiyahu when he looked for one oseh mishpat mevakesh emunah.
ZD,
I am not sure you know what the words ????? ????? means. And I am sure you did not understand ITFT meant.
A person is obligated by the halachos in the Torah. Someone who does not Joseph certain halachos would be consider a Tasha and there are specific treatment for a rasha. There are time that there is a “heter” called ????? ?????.
Normally one says that ignorance of the law does not exempt one from the law. I am pretty sure you strongly advocate that with US laws. There is no reason to say less for Halacha.
ITFT was explaining that there is no “heter” applicable to the ??? ????? ??? ??. It makes no difference if they are aboriginals or other indigenous people. Nowhere does it say that ??? ????? do not apply to them. It is your own unsubstantiated ?????.
ZD and AK – A tinok sheneshba is literally a Jew who was captured and raised by non-Jews. It does not refer to indigenous people who are not Jewish to start with.
I wasnt the one who brought up Tinok Sheneba for 7 Mizvoth Bnei Noach, I just gave an example how its very possible someone never heard of the torah
A goy who violates any of the sheva mitzvos, even unintentionally or unknowingly, is deemed guilty and liable for the relevant penalty.
Nechomah – +1. The specific term, “tinok shenishba” can not possibly apply to goyim since the full phrase is something like, “tinok shenishba bein hagoyim.” However, theoretically the basic concept can. Meaning, it would be possible that Hashem doesn’t judge goyim for something they didn’t know. I think that is what some of the posters were referring to, even though the terminology may be inaccurate.
I don’t have a source off-hand and I don’t have time to look for one, but I think that those who are saying that this concept doesn’t apply to goyim may be correct.
However, I think IITFT brought up the topic in reference to Yidden. I think he was saying that Yidden are not tinok shenishba in regards to 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach. Is that correct, IITFT?
I am also wondering if you have a source for that, or are you assuming that based on the fact that the Goyim are not considered “Tinok shenishba” (I know those words can’t be used for goyim, but my point is that the concept does not even apply to goyim) for the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach, and t/f you are assuming that Yidden also can’t be tinok shenishba for the 7 Mitzvos?
If so, I think it is an incorrect assumption. Even though the goyim only have 7 laws as opposed to our 613, they are judged much more harshly for those 7. This happens in several ways. I think that I have learned (again, I have no source off-hand) that one of the ways they are judged more harshly is that they have no concept of tinok shenishba which does apply to Yidden.
But in any case, my point was that regardless of how Hashem judges people, that has nothing to do with us. It is not our job to judge people. Our job is to sympathize with them and try to help them to keep the Mitzvos so that they don’t get punished. Obviously, we have to use our seichel in how we go about it. But it is good to keep in mind a great quote I heard once: “If I know the way to earn Eternal Life, how much would I have to hate someone else in order to not tell them about it?”.
If it is in fact true that someone is going to burn because they don’t know about the Mitzvos (and I’m not saying that it is), then you really should feel bad for them and try to teach them about the Mitzvos (if you can do so in a productive way, and either way, you should try your best to be as nice as possible so that you can make a Kiddush Hashem and they more likely to want to be like you).
Regarding Goyim, while it seems unfair that they will be not get a cheilik in Olam Haba because of something they don’t know about, that should be our impetus to teach them. The only way they will know is if we teach them. That is why there are Jews who dedicate their lives to teaching goyim about the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach. I think the only reason most of us don’t do it is because there are so many Jews who are ignorant or confused, and our responsibility lies with them first.
ZD,
“I wasnt the one who brought up Tinok Sheneba for 7 Mizvoth Bnei Noach, I just gave an example how its very possible someone never heard of the torah”
Did someone else write the following in your name just before?
“There are some indigenous peoples who never heard of the bible or if they heard of it, it came from missionaries and they might be negatively inclided towards it. Are you going to say someone who never heard of the Bible is not a Tinok Shenesba?”
Nechoma & Lilmod, we have discussed the difference between goyim and bnei Noach in rabbinic Hebrew in another thread. However, to recap, the former do not keep the sheva mitzvot (in particular a”z) and the latter is a general term for non-Jews although it is sometimes used more specifically for those who do keep the seven. Non-Jews are expected to figure them out themselves (Hilchot Melachim 10,1). This is known as natural law. However, if he is compelled to violate one of his mitzvot he is exempt from punishment (ibid Halacha 2). If we look at being brainwashed by his teachers or the atmosphere in society as a type of oness (regarding Jews see Iggerot HaRaya (Rav Kook) v. 1 pp. 170-171, Chazon Ish YD 2:28 and Rav Mordechai Eliahu “Darchei Halacha”) then he would be exempt.
Avi – you seem to have misunderstood Nechomah and my comments. Neither of us mentioned “b’nei Noach”. We wrote about the differences between goyim and Jews.
Thank you for bringing sources. I don’t have time to look up your sources right now, but from what you wrote, it doesn’t sound like any of these sources are about goyim who are brainwashed by society. Do you have sources for that?
Lilmod, you contended that non-Jews cannot be tinokkot shenishbu by definition. I disputed that contention.
I heard once: “If I know the way to earn Eternal Life, how much would I have to hate someone else in order to not tell them about it?”.
I was once speaking to a christian about missionizing and they said almost the exact same thing word for word
ZD – lol, I didn’t want to say where the quote came from….
Avi – I said that the terminology is inaccurate for goyim. Where in your post do you dispute this?
So this is where we stand, Zdad & everyone,
I said you didn’t have to take my word for it because even I wasn’t taking my word for it, because I had no actual sources to prove my statement.
Nechomah made the same statement I did. She also didn’t back herself up with a source but isn’t bothered by that and is confident that she’s correct.
LilmodU gives Nechoma’s (unsubstantiated) statement +1. She says, “I don’t have a source off-hand and I don’t have time to look for one,” but is likewise unconcerned about that minor point.
So you don’t have to trust me, but you may trust Nechomah and LU.
They won’t steer you wrong.
I think there is something that is very important to point out in this discussion. There is a difference between saying that goyim get punished for doing x,y,z, and saying that they won’t have a cheilik in Olam Haba if they do x,y,z.
Earning a cheilik in Olam Haba is a very specific reward that one only gets for performing certain actions. When I said that I am under the impression that goyim are not entitled to dispension based on ignorance, I was referring to the Cheilik in Olam Haba (and not necessarily to punishment). I have no idea if it applies to punishment or not.
I did hear from a Rav of mine that even if a goy is not entitled to a cheilik in Olam Haba, he still gets a reward for the Mitzvos that he performed. In other words, a cheilik in Olam Haba is the term for a specific form of reward, but one can still receive some form of eternal reward even if he is not entitled to a cheilik in Olam Haba. I was very relieved when I heard that since I always felt bad for goyim who have done some very good things but messed up on one of the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach (whether knowingly or not).
I don’t remember what the source is for that, although I may have it somewhere, but I do know that there was a source.
Golfer, while I appreciate your trust in me, I can not guarantee that the CONCEPT of Tinok shenishba as a concept does not apply to goyim (although I am fairly positive that the term itself does not make sense, but that is semantics).
However, I can guarantee that what I wrote in this post about goyim receiving a reward for their Mitzvos is correct.
“2. Who says that there is no din tinnok shenishba by Noahides?”
Gemora Makkos 6.,for one
“There are some indigenous peoples who never heard of the bible or if they heard of it, it came from missionaries and they might be negatively inclided towards it. Are you going to say someone who never heard of the Bible is not a Tinok Shenesba?”
The 7 mitzvos are considered to be Inherent, Natural and logical
The onus therefore is upon everyone to figure out at least the basics by themselves
The simple indigenous peoples invariably have less problem with this than enlightened urbanites for the record
There is a cosmic difference between when there is Kulturkampf and Global Movements pushing agenda and atmosphere as there is now,and a normative situation of an individual doing a grave sin in a vacuum (as per LU,etc.)
It becomes a sha’as Hashmad and falls furthermore under the rubric
of meisis U’meiti’ach and our defenses and reactions becomes different
Cf.Rabbi Herschel Shachter Ruling
on the push for Women Rabbis
and
Rabbi Shlomo Miller On women minyonim with tefillin
Two Rulings where the Kulturkampf are minor in comparison
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.