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using the example how jews kept away from secular influences in Egypt is really a bad example
If that was the case, everyone here would be committing a tremendous Averiaha s we are all speaking English
And dont tell me that Yiddish is a “Jewish lanaguge” its just a pigeon German, Its not a real jewish language. Modern Hebrew is probably the only real jewish language, but even that has outside influences
golfer
oooh ooh pick me!
“Can someone please state the exact number of years since Yetzias Mitzrayim?”
I cant as it is a machlokes. But lets say approximately 3323
“And can someone (could be the same person) please list the 3 things we didn’t change back there in Egypt?”
Hmmm Vayikrah Rabba 32:5 has Name and Language
Lekach Tov, Devarim 26:5 has Name, food and dress
There are other reasons given in other mdirashim
I assume you mean shem lashon and malbish though interestingly no such medrash exists.
“Bnei Yisrael kept away from secular influences in ancient times.”
I can draw the opposite conclusion too. they were emeshed in secular culture having descended to 49th level of Tumah but becasue they maintained something they were redeemed.
“Yotz’ei Mitzrayim, as evidenced by the shtreimel-clad men in the pictures our little ones bring home from Yeshiva, were chareidim.”
yep that is what I was taught growing up, and many who claim charedi Jews never changed seem to imply
I think that “modern” accepted definition of chareidi is not a response to haskalah, it’s a response to the Holocaust. As was noted, the Chazon Ish was the one who really started the Kollel system as it exists today, in response to the loss of so many leaders. I think that the kollel system is the defining characteristic of the modern chareidi movement.
Chassidus has also had a huge impact on the charedi world, with many chumros that chassidim followed being adopted by the chareidi world.
My Rav likes to say that chareidim are those who follow the Torah, and that’s it. He also says that “Modern Orthodox” means those who figure out how to view the modern world through the prism of the Torah. Therefore, he said, the biggest Modern Orthodox rabbonim were R’ Moshe Feinstein, R’ SZ Auerbach, R’ Elyashiv, Chacham Ovadia Yosef, etc. who took the new modern things we have, whether it’s electricity, medical advances, or anything else, and figured out how the halachos we have apply to them.
Interesting, ubiq, that no such medrash actually exists.
So many of the things “someone says” (reminds you af anyone around here?) when you learn growing up, are actually quotes that come from nowhere at all. Then you spend years hearing from men who learned from the real sources what it really says. So thanks for making that clear!
As for Bnei Yisrael’s distinction (or lack of it) in Mitzrayim, they were “metzuyanim sham”. I always understood that as meaning that they did maintain their cultural differences, but picked up some really nasty behaviors from the immoral Mitzrim. If you want to learn it differently, feel free. You certainly don’t want to draw conclusions from some anonymous person on the CR…
sorry for the edit, wasn’t sure if you meant it in the way it came out…
If your proof that the Yidden in Mitzrayim engaged in secular culture is by their having descended to 49th level of Tumah, then you should agree that secular culture is to be avoided as you associated it with decent into tumah.
“reminds you af anyone around here?”
Yes Lots. But I have encountered sources for things I hadnt previously known, which makes sticking around well worthwhile.
“As for Bnei Yisrael’s distinction (or lack of it) in Mitzrayim,”
Lol nowhere did I argue for assimilation. There is a huge gulf between completely seperatign ourselves, to assimilation. Neither of which do I believe anyone here argues for.
“If your proof that the Yidden in Mitzrayim engaged in secular culture..”
Lol, though I didint mean to offer it as proof.
Uber oib di vilst ken men fin yetzt oon redden nur in yidish
Back in mitzrayim, the only thing that Bnei Yisroel had were the cultural signs of being a different nation- things like language and dress. That’s what kept them being Bnei Yisroel and worthy of being saved. Now, B”H we have mitzvos, so our identity/eternity as Am Yisroel is no longer dependent on or defined by dress and language etc alone.
You’re right WinnieTP. As I’m sure you know you are!
The point I was making by introducing Mitzrayim into the discussion is that maintaining a separate cultural identity, and avoidance of assimilation into mainstream society, are not modern innovations. This so-called “chareidi” behavior is not something we suddenly came up with in the last couple of centuries.
So a good Yid can go around with an Afro, t-shirt, torn jeans and no socks while speaking Ebonics to his friends who call him Tipper?
Ub- a response to your response (quoting and requoting is going to get too confusing)
I am glad that you feel that my basic description of chareidim applies to most frum Jews- it is so encouraging that keeping halacha without compromise, valuing limud hatorah, and listening to rabbanim is the default!
Here’s my theory: What distinguishes among what I call chareidi and other types is what else the community values, and what is the order of priority among these values. I believe that for chareidim, limud hatorah trumps all. The isolationism and aversion of secular knowledge that, as you put it, are unique to chareidim, are not priorities in themselves but rather a very important means of preserving the core values listed above in today’s world.
If however, you add the mitzva of yishuv eretz yisroel and defending it high up on my original list, you get another type of frum Jew. Add being a positive part of society and combining Torah with secular knowledge, and you get another type. Emphasis on kedusha and avoda, with a Rebbe as a means to achieve these, and you get yet a third type. Sorry if this is a bit simplistic, but I think it can resolve some of the arguments going around here about this issue.
I assume you mean shem lashon and malbish though interestingly no such medrash exists.
There are Rishonim who quote such a Medrash.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20791&st=&pgnum=117&hilite=
Calling a Jew “Charedi” has the same connotation as using the N word to describe a black person. Those who can’t understand this, need to do soul-searching.
Thanks DY
He quotes “mechilitin” is that generic name for medrash? or does he mean the mechilta (which we have)
For sure, Golfer, this behavior/shita becomes more important in certain times and places, less so in others. Ein Chadash tachas hashemesh.
It sounds like there was another girsa in the Mechilta.
So a good Yid can go around with an Afro, t-shirt, torn jeans and no socks while speaking Ebonics to his friends who call him Tipper?
Absolutly ,
And A Rasha can go around wearing a Bechasha, Streimel, gartel, Speak Yiddish and only eat hemish Foods, and never have learned secular studies
How you Dress does not make you a good or bad yid
Joseph-
“Tipper” ??!?
He tips the bartender well. And often.
Lakewhut – I think that was how the term started, but the Chareidim took back the term and turned it into a positive. So today it is not true anymore.
And I think the meaning of the term has shifted over the years which might explain why so many of the posters don’t get the way I am defining the term. Since most of them live in the US or at least haven’t lived in EY as long as I have, they are behind the times in this issue.
Im not sure myself where the term originated, but I suspect it comes from Eida HaCharedis, In english the actual term used is Ultra-Orhtodox , but that is seen as the pejorative and charedi as just a neutral term.
In general words do change meanings over the years and sometime the same words could mean 2 different things to 2 different people
(Snore)(yawn)(Snore)
DaMoshe,
People refer to colloquial usage
While you are 100% right, it is inadvisable to say thus.
Such backward twists will be surely turned by those with nefarious agendae to suit themselves
DaMoshe,
Let me rephrase that:you are still partly wrong
They refused to compromise/cave with the modern and post modern world
They found how to supersede the ‘ the modern and post modern world’
ZD: “In general words do change meanings over the years and sometime the same words could mean 2 different things to 2 different people”
At least. Most of these labels have a lot more than 2 meanings, which is one of the main problems with labels (that’s a whole speech that I don’t have time for now – LF is saying, “thank you” But basically, they tend to lead to Sinas Chinam, mainly due to the fact that they have more than one meaning).
That is why there isn’t necessarily one right way to define any of the terms, and most of the definitions being used can probably technically be considered correct (as well as incorrect).
However, there usually is one (or maybe two) definition that is better to use than others. For example, there are reasons why I use the definition of Chareidi that I use. However, it would take a long time to explain why. Maybe I will do so some other time.
Suffice it to say that the best definition is the one that leads to the most Ahavas Yisrael and Emes. And that is the primary basis by which I choose my definitions.
Thank you so much ZD for your post which both clarified an important point and gave me the impetus to point out something I’ve been wanting to point out.
When I use a particular term, its not meant to demean anyone, it is just stating what group they belong to. While we can all say they are Jews. We can agree a Chiloni from Tel Aviv is not the same as a Dati Leumi Settler from Kiryat Arba who is not the same as a Charedi from Bnei Brak and its not prejorative to say so
I wrote that they can lead to sinas chaim. That doesn’t mean that they are always sinas chinas.
On the other hand, to some extent, the concept of labeling and dividing Am Yisrael does have an aspect of sinas chinam which is why these labels should only be used when necessary.
Is it necessary to describe the Jew you met as a Chiloni? Why not just call him a Jew? Shouldn’t you view the essence of his identity as being that he is Jewish and not that he is Chiloni?
Also, it is not so poshut to say that there is nothing negative about the terms. It is definitely a negative thing to be chiloni. Even if it’s not the guy’s fault because he is a tinok shenishba.
And when you are talking about Frum Jews, why do you have to emphasize our differences? Why do you have to give someone a label just because they celebrate Yom HaAtzmaut differently than you do? Why not emphasize the fact that you both keep 613 Mitzvos, learn Torah, believe in the 13 Ani Maamin’s, try to have Yiras Shamayim and Ahavas Hashem, and try to live a life of Avodas Hashem?
You see it as Sinas Chinam, I dont. I see it the proper way to behave when you meet someone
Lets say you meet a chiloni of an “Alternative Lifestyle”, its not really a good idea to yell at them for doing an averiah in Vayikra and then give him a vort from your rebbe on the evils of this averiah
Lets say you meet a Dati leumi Settler, I dont think discussing Chiudishim from Vyoel Joel is such a good idea
And Finally if you meet a Charedi, Dont discuss with them the Super Bowl game.
I like to celebrate peoples differneces, not their sameness. If everyone was the same life would be pretty boring
ZD, someone I knew once was sitting and learning by himself when an elderly man walked up to him and excited asked if he wanted an argument.
If my memory serves me correctly (50/50 chance) the above mentioned maamar appears in Sifri, but changes “dress” to that they were not baalei LH. Dress has obviously changed many times, as have names. For names, have a look in divrei hayomim> Languages have changed, the shvatim spoke the mamaloshen of the imahos, which was Aramis. And b’avosenu horabim, its been a long time since there was universal shmira from Loshon Horah. The long golus in many places has caused all this change, because these details were no longer the nisoyon or avoda… until very recently
“When I use a particular term, its not meant to demean anyone, it is just stating what group they belong to. While we can all say they are Jews. We can agree a Chiloni from Tel Aviv is not the same as a Dati Leumi Settler from Kiryat Arba who is not the same as a Charedi from Bnei Brak and its not prejorative to say so “
It,of course,will depend on context, or if in speech : on tone
zahavasdad,
” I see it the proper way to behave when you meet someone”
Are you really comparing all those three?!
you have ‘come out of the closet’ where you are holding!
I , without hesitation did let someone like “that” know what I think of them
I , without hesitation did let someone like “that” know what I think of them
.. and when they’re israeli while they may wish to avoid another rendezvouz ,they respect your integrity
ITFT
I , without hesitation did let someone like “that” know what I think of them
Good for you, When your boss is an “alternative lifestyle” , Would you quote them Vayikra?
How about a Co-Worker? Would you tell them that they are wrong. You do those things, you can get fired. its illegal to discrimate against those groups or say anything.
I know people who did say something and they got punished by the Human Resources Department at the place of employment
How about a potential Client of a large account, Would you tell them that their lifestye is wrong and lose the account?
A good Yid can go around with an Afro, t-shirt, torn jeans and no socks while speaking Ebonics to his friends who call him Tipper.
ZD – You are right that there are times when labels serve an important purpose, but there are other times when they breed Sinas Chinam.
Lightbrite, as the person was learning Gemara I think that the intention was to discuss Gemara. That is a very serious argument.
zahavasdad,
What would you do if it was a serial murderer or serial abuser
Is it different?How so?
If you would be an are ehrliche jew ,you would if it comes to it, Move on
My cousin, had enough of the atmosphere where he worked,
downsized from a top law firm to a local mid scale firm
That would be asking too much ?
continue..
From a Top International Firm to a <nebach> local outfit run by couple of frum guys
If I were to meet a serial killer or abuser, any actions I would take would be solely to protect myself and others, not to reprimand him for killing or abusing.
A treif eater, A Mechallel Shabbos or Alternative lifestyle person is not the same as a serial Murderer or abuser. The first 3 do not put me in personal danger.
edited. You are welcome to be specific but not general
An abuser puts you in ‘personal danger’ ?? How so?
You have been invariably antagonistic to Satmar or NK for having the selfish attitudes of ” any actions I would take would be solely to protect myself and others” uncaring about the good and commonweal of the jewish people as a whole
edited
“I like to celebrate peoples differneces, not their sameness”
How far does it go ?
Erev Rav,communists,pirates
It’s unfortunate how hard a person will work to put a negative understanding to a comment that, when left in context, was really positive.
It Is Time For Truth, by quoting my words together with Zahavasdad’s, are you talking to me or Zahavasdad?
RRRRRRRRRRR you saying Matey its wrong to like Pirates
You dont like Pirates?
Ill Make ya Walk the plank , ya
A mechallel Shabbos and treif eater certainly does put you (and everyone else) in danger.
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