- This topic has 48 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Having grown up with it, it never occured to me that there could be anything wrong with it. Every year we would wait eagerly as my mother handed out colorfully wrapped gifts(usually the latest games and gadgets). It was just part of the family tradition.
Then, this year not long after the big family Chanuka party I happened upon an opinion price in one of the frum magazines bemoaning the fact that Chanuka has become very similar to antother unrelated holiday which stands for the exact opposite values.
I came to the realisation that Chanuka prsents are indeed chukat hagoi , so my question is; how do I return the assur bhanaha gifts without offending the givers?
Send them by mail with no mention. Pretend it never happened.
I meant to start thread asking everybody what Christmas presents they received this Chanukah.
Calling ubiquitin….
Donate it.
I’m here!
Having grown up with it, it never occured to me that there could be anything wrong with it. Every year we would wait eagerly as my mother served a wonderful yom tov seuda(usually delicous meat and side dishes). It was just part of the family tradition.
Then, this year not long after the big yom tov seudah I happened upon an opinion price in one of the frum magazines bemoaning the fact that yom tov has become very similar to other unrelated holidays which stands for the exact opposite values.
I came to the realisation that Yom Tov seudahss are indeed chukat hagoi , so my question is; how do I return the assur bhanaha food without offending the givers?
Joseph
did you get christmas chocolate this chanukah?
assur bhanaha
Please provide a cite that things that are gained through chukos hagoi (as opposed to actual avoda zara) are, in fact, assur b’hana’ah.
The Wolf
ubiq: Did your continue your family tradition this year of hanging a red stocking on the family Chanukah tree for everyone to secretly deposit your presents into?
If R’L you got a Rolex Watch for your Chanukah Present. I would be willing to suffer and remove it from your hands and give it a new home
How about a diamond studded golden cross, ZD?
Joseph
no absolutly not, that would be chukas akum unlike Presents which are a basic human expression of celebration/thanks/appreciation/joy etc. much like having a party/singing/eating/smiling etc non of which are assur on chanukah even though Goyim may do it on their holidays
(You also lied when you said it was my family tradition. You can easier make a case that lying is chukas akum more than chanukah presents)
Now your turn:
did you get christmas chocolate this chanukah?
Whaaaat, beautifying ones home with a nice tree, plants, flowers lkovod Chanukah is chukas akum? It’s a basic human expression of celebration/joy much like having a party/singing/eating/smiling!!
What’s a goy?
Joseph
More lies: “It’s a basic human expression of celebration/joy much like having a party/singing/eating/smiling”
Please tell me what holiday or special occasion is celebrated by placing a tree or stocking in a house. (we arent talking about flowers, and as For Shavuos well I have a surprise for you though I dont want to change the subject to much)
It is ok to be wrong, I understand you like assering things with minimal knowledge (both halacha and general) it is much easier than thinking or researching. That is ok, Im happy to help educate you.
Lying however is not ok, you told two lies on this thread.
As for presents here are occasions when presents are routinly given:
Birthdays
Aniversaries
Graduations
to a host
as a general thank you
Christmas
Afikomen
Chanukah
Engagments
Bar mitzvahs
Retirement
Marriage
Having a baby
Feel free to add your own…
Oh and for the third time:
did you get christmas chocolate this chanukah?
Many people all the time put out flowers, plants, trees, etc. to beutify their home or celebrate an occasion or general happiness.
I didn’t c”v ask you if you put colorful lights on your Chanukah tree. I would never be choshed…
Joseph
Slow down your are losing your train of “thought”
You wanted to know if I was “hanging a red stocking on the family Chanukah tree”
I replied, that unlike presents which are a ubiquitous and innocuous act, the above (stocking and tree) are not.
I hlpfully supplied multiple occasions when presents are given.
We arent talking about “beutifying homes” with “flowers, plants, trees etc” which you are right about and of course is complelty muttar.
We are talking about Celebrating. You said “Many people all the time put out …trees… to … celebrate an occasion”
Granted I edited it to make it relevant to the subject at hand. I never heard of this, is it true? Did you mean the flowers are for celebrating and trees for beautifying? OR is it your third lie on this thread? (That would have to be a record even for you 3/5 of your posts containing lies).
And for the fourth time
did you get christmas chocolate this chanukah?
Why the reluctance to answer?
Forget the stocking stuffers and stick to your Chanukah tree.
Notamod
“What next, matzah bunnies? “
Probably not, but stay tuned for after Pesach for Hot cross buns aka Schlissel Challah!!! yuuuuum
“Chanuka was always about donuts, latkes and family time. Out ancestors were Moser nefesh for latkes not goishe presents. “
Lol that isnt what it was “always about” Both Latkes and donuts came later, with time more minhagim were added including eating milchings (which I believe is actually older than latkes) dreidel, Gelt (first to rabbeim then kids) and now presents
ubiquitin
Yom tov seudas is halacha… Chanukah seudas are reshus..(rema beginning hilchos chanika). please dont compare to presents
Joseph
Gladly
Slow down your are losing your train of “thought”
You wanted to know if I was “… family Chanukah tree”
I replied, that unlike presents which are a ubiquitous and innocuous act, the above (a tree) is not.
I hlpfully supplied multiple occasions when presents are given.
We arent talking about “beutifying homes” with “flowers, plants, trees etc” which you are right about and of course is complelty muttar.
We are talking about Celebrating. You said “Many people all the time put out …trees… to … celebrate an occasion”
Granted I edited it to make it relevant to the subject at hand. I never heard of this, is it true? Did you mean the flowers are for celebrating and trees for beautifying? OR is it your third lie on this thread? (That would have to be a record even for you 3/5 of your posts containing lies).
And for the fifth time
did you get christmas chocolate this chanukah?
for the second time
Why the reluctance to answer?
Notamod
This whole thread is litzanos, with a touch of ama haaratzos and dishonesty to spice it up.
Shimen
Halacha can change if it becomes a goyish act. Bamos being the classic example.
But, i hear so here is a non-halachic example:
Having grown up with it, it never occured to me that there could be anything wrong with it. Every year we joyfully wish each other “have a gut yontiff” It was just part of the family tradition.
Then, this year not long after the a hearty gut yontiff I happened upon an opinion price in one of the frum magazines bemoaning the fact that yom tov has become very similar to other unrelated holidays which stands for the exact opposite values.
I came to the realisation that wiching each other “gut yontiff” are indeed chukat hagoi , so my question is; how do I return the assur bhanaha greetings without offending the givers?
ubiq, I’ll give you a hand at your bar mitzvah.
In the future I plan to have a tree in my house every winter. Because it’s cold outside and the tree I plan to have can’t tolerate such cold temperatures, so it will have to be in the house in winter and outside in summer.
FWIW, in a Monsey weekly there was a letter to the editor about how Chanukah parties are totally chukas hagoyim…
the evidence for the two is pretty similar namely a temporal relationship.
Goyim made loaves with a cross marked on them around Easter time first then we made loaves with a key marked on them around PEsach (lehavdil!)
Goyim gave presents christmas, we give presents Chanukah (lehavdil!)
The only differecne is that presents is more recent. And as I said over there Give it(i.e. presents) a few hundred years, as it enters minhagim seforim and reasons are given eg the wrapped present represents the hidden pach shemen or some clever gematriya, or that Matanah stands for Mitzvos, Torah, nisism and Hashem which is what really won the war agaisnt the yevanim. At that time our descendants will have the exact discussion regarding presents as we did regarding the “ancient minhag” of shlissel Chalah
The goyim made loaves with a cross so we mad loaves with a key. Huh?
Noyamod: We were Moser nefesh for latkes huh?
DYDT
Read this thread http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/schlissel-challah
or look at google images of medieval keys
or better yet have a look at the symbol of the vatican…
Lol Notamod
I did not catch on (Poe’s law) (My only suspicion was the assur bhanah part)
Its too early for Shlissel Chalah. The article you allude to is addressed in the thread above.
Keep in mind while today there is no mekor for Chanukah presents if things stay this way in a few centuries there will be.
In a few centuries, if things stay this way, you’re gonna have mekors for chanukah trees, chanukah presents, pesach bunnies, purim ash, etc.
Joseph: And Succah-treating of course.
However, when all is said and done there is absolutely no mekor for Chanuka presents
There’s also no mekor for our having baked tilapia in lemon sauce on Friday nights instead of gefilte fish. So what?
The Wolf
Notamod
“Seriously though, Chanuka presents are a perfectly harmless way to get kids excited about Chanukah nothing wrong with that”
Agreed
” but I don’t think anyone seriously considers it a minhag.”
yet. Though some do equate it with money, both are a minhag
see here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=872&st=&pgnum=251
(source provided by DY)
“Shlissel challah is accepted as minhag”
among some – present company included
” and suggesting that it originates from cross loaves is heading down a dangerous path.”
I’m not suggesting it, Iam outright saying it
“I agree that we should be wary of strange new minhagim but at the same time we must be careful not to fall prey to the skewed thinking of pluralism and the likes of it.”
Sure why not
Joseph
“In a few centuries, if things stay this way, you’re gonna have mekors for chanukah trees, chanukah presents, pesach bunnies, purim ash, etc.”
You may be right. And of course your Grandchild will defend the “Millenia old” minhag of Chanuka trees
Care to respond to any of the many questions posed to you? BTW I see dishonesty is your MO here. A year ago you posted under a different name “This isn’t chukas akum but it certainly is in the “spirit” of it. So whilst it may not be technically assur, I wouldn’t do everything that is technically muttar.” see here: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/what-is-the-origin-of-chanukah-gifts
“And Succah-treating of course.”
Sukkah hops already exist
Why does Christmas stand for the exact opposite values as Chanukah?? I think they stand for very similar values actually.
Zev, you seem to be agreeing with ubiq.
Btw, why don’t the people who give so many Chanuka presents to all their family members do the same on Succos and Pesach and Shavuos and give all their family members similar presents, in quantity and quality to all the same people, they do on Chanukah?
Is it, dare we say, because there is no Christmas gift-giving season during the other yomim tovim?
Joseph
“Btw, why don’t the people who give so many Chanuka presents to all their family members do the same on Succos and Pesach and Shavuos and give all their family members similar presents, in quantity and quality to all the same people, they do on Chanukah?”
Nope, it is because the minhag of giving gelt is a Chanukah one so with time the gelt became Presents.
BTW Im not saying we didnt copy goyim. We did! But that doesnt make it assur. Please see the Rema, alos see this quote of yours from last year:
“”This isn’t chukas akum but it certainly is in the “spirit” of it. So whilst it may not be technically assur, I wouldn’t do everything that is technically muttar.””
Care to respond to any of my questions posed throughout this thread?
Ive posed several. I assume you have no answer.
I have one more. Do you have any source forbidding Chanukah presents, or is it your boich sevara?
Notamod: I’m the referee. 😉
ubiq: As I told you after our experiences in previous threads, as a general rule I will decline to respond to your repeated questions as you don’t accept responses not to your liking – and then you go on and pretend to have not received a response as you re-post the same question a half dozen more times after slightly altering the wording of the question (and claiming it is a new question that was not previously addressed).
And, as you know, I’m not the only one who has had this experience with you and told you as much.
Nope, it is because the minhag of giving gelt is a Chanukah one so with time the gelt became Presents.
There’s a real minhag to give one’s spouse a gift for the shalosh regalim.
But, then again, it isn’t Christmas season so perhaps some don’t hold much of it.
“I’m the referee. ;)”
Ah so thats why you dont need to reply to my points.
“As I told you after our experiences in previous threads, as a general rule I will decline to respond to your repeated questions as you don’t accept responses not to your liking”
This is no fewer than your fourth demonstrable lie in this thread. You did not repy to my very first question posed to you
You dont reply becasue you cant, but arent man enough to admit it. This has occured on multple threads mostly becasue you have knee jerk reactions and havent though things through or researched a topic.
a perfect example of this is in this thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/changing-neighborhoods-and-anti-semitism#post-589393
where you display an elementary lack of understanding of the subject at hand. (I explained (with sources) why you were wrong. YOU repeated yourself without actually responding)
I’d be happy to provide more similar examples.
Can you provide an example of a question you feel was answered. Id be more than happy to explain why your answer was factually incorrect (which in my view isnt an answer) or concede.
Besdies, in this thread you told multiple lies. You did not respond to my questions at all.
“And, as you know, I’m not the only one who has had this experience with you and told you as much.”
Nope just you and DY.
“There’s a real minhag to give one’s spouse a gift for the shalosh regalim.
But, then again, it isn’t Christmas season so perhaps some don’t hold much of it”
Who doesnt?
Here are questions posed in this thread that you havent (cant) answer
Feel free to point out where you “already answered”
“did you get christmas chocolate this chanukah?” (5 times)
“You said “Many people all the time put out …trees… to … celebrate an occasion”
Granted I edited it to make it relevant to the subject at hand. I never heard of this, is it true?” (twice)
” Do you have any source forbidding Chanukah presents, or is it your boich sevara?”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.