- This topic has 103 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 10 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
If the Menorah in Bais Sheini was curved branches, isnt that a more accurate way to celebrate chanukah since it occured by Bais Sheini? Or is the correct Menorah the straight branches from Bais Rishon?
I wasn’t aware that the menora was different is the 2 batei mikdash, interesting. I know we have an image of the menora from Titus’ Arch, assuming that it is a depiction of The Menora, and not just any menora, And chabad holds that the menora had straight branches, V shaped. But I thought the matter is still up to debate.
The point is not to replicate the menora of either beis hamikdash (an exact replicate is assur, actually) but to light in any vessel that fits the halachic criteria. Either menora you describe does not: the menora in the beis hamikdash had 6 side branches turning toward the middle main branch, for a total of 7. Since we light 8+1 shamash, the chanuka “menora” is obviously different.
You can use potatoes as a Chanukah menorah.
Can you use a chanukiah for latkes?
Wtp+1 also they found in the Cairo geniza a drawing of the Rambam of the Menorah and it is diagonal
If you read what the Rambam says next to the picture (its in the Pirush HaMishnayos in Menachos, Perek Gimmel), he says that he is specifically drawing this picture only to show there the gevios and prachim were on the menorah (and not to imply that the branches were diagonal; it’s just simpler to draw, print (remember, all printing back then was done with what were essentially woodcuts), and see where they were like that).
(It still could be that the picture was accurate in that regard, but there is no real reason to say that.)As far as I can tell, every single mosaic, carving, and picture of the menorah made over 500 years ago is curved, and, in addition, nowhere in Bavli or Yerushalmi, Mechilta, Sifra, or Sifri, Medresh Rabba or Tanchuma, Breisa Dassiyas Hamishcan (and every other Mesechta of Breisos that I’ve seen) does it ever say that the branches of the Menorah were straight (although several of the less meyuchasdika breisos imply that they were curved).
I grew up hearing that it was a machlokes between the Rambam and the other Rishonim, but I’ve never seen a single Rishon (including the Rambam, although I haven’t ‘learned all of the Pirush Hamishmayos yet, nor done such a good job on the yad…) say it was curved, so I would love to know where it comes from.
Please, if anyone knows of a mekor, please tell me of one (and while if any of the Rebbes actually said it in a shiur etc. it would help, but I want a mekor from the Rishonim or earlier, if at all possible).
(Oh, and if anyone can tell me how to use hebrew (and apostrophes – they also aren’t working right) in here so that I can post the lashon of the Rambam, I’d appreciate it (1st time poster…) Thanks.)
Uber,
Rabenu Avrohom Ben HaRambam in his pirush on the Torah, (Parshas Trumah) clearly says that it was like his father had drawn – NOT round…see below link (Ois 32)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=40223&st=&pgnum=399Also, read the following link:
It covers the topic well. However, read it having in mind that the author is Lubavitch, and thus trying to prove the Rebbe correct.
Thanks for pointing out the R’ Avraham ben Harambam, you definitely can read אבל הכוונה להודיע בה מספר הגביעים וכפתורים והפרחים ומקומתם to be davka those, although I definitely would not say that the Rambam “says that the branches were straight”, at the most he implies it through a picture (even if that part of the picture was accurate.
(It would also make more sense for the Rambam to try to make the shape of the menorah in his picture as accurate as possible, as he is trying to show where the geviim were)About the 2nd sefer you quoted, he says that מדברי הרמב”ם ורש”י הנ”ל ברור ועליל שקני המנורה ישרים, which, legabay the Rambam, is definitely not in his devarim, at least (from R’ Avraham ben Harambam it is, but that isn’t who he is quoting), and all that Rashi says is that it went out באלכסון, which doesn’t necessarily mean that it went in a straight diagonal line at all, just that it wasn’t flat.
Thanks
Uber/Litvish:
“So all the other sources of curved branches don’t count? ”
They sure do – as that is how all Klal Yisrael has identified it for the past thousand years, as all the coins and many manuscripts indicate.
Read the below link how he disputes the above psahtim and how he tries to say pshat in the words of Rabenu Avrohom:
Some chabad light curved menorahs like this🕎
And some light diagonal.I also saw the video of the one litvisher chossid is talking about with 90* angel Menorah till it was changed to the one that looks like the menorah in the BHMK. (Obvs not exact bec that has 6 branches not 8)
Rashi says “b’alochson”, diagonal. If you want to convince yourself that it could mean diagonally round- then knock yourself out. As a matter of fact, one of the indications that the Rambam held that the branches were round was that he did not say b’alochson in describing the menorah as Rashi did. But then his manuscript and drawing were publicized. Additionally, R Avraham Ben Harambam says that the branches came out of the center B’yosher-straight explaining that it is based on the drawing of his father. It is possible that the additional menorahs that Shlomo Hamelech built were round. But the Menorahs that the koihen gadol fulfilled the mitzvah with were diagonally straight.
And one of the reasons the Rebbe felt that is was important that the menorahs be depicted correctly is because it is depicted round- incorrectly on the arch of Titus. A depiction that had an image of a snake and images of avoida Zara.
@litvishechossid. Plz read my posts.
And I don’t know any lubavitchers that a wage a “fierce holy war” as you describe with regards to this issue. I think you pick on the untucked shirts and straggly beards instead. And perhaps the apikorsus in doing mitzvohs for the sake of bringing moshiach closer.
@litvichechossid. Let’s stay on the topic. I am saying that according to Rambam and most probably according to Rashi, the branches were diagonal. Also, the popularity of round branches is largely due to the arch of Titus. That’s all. Have a Freilichen Chanukah.
There needs to be the word “should” before “pick on the untucked shirts” in my previous post. GN.
@litvishechossid. I read the article. I’m not sure what your point is. The truth is, you probably don’t have a cogent point to make, so your digging up an article from a few years ago that you found on col. And see Likkutei Amarim chapter 28, 2nd page, the line that starts “zarah”. Have a good night.
The sicha where the Rebbe discussed the shape of the Menorah is printed in Likkutei Sichos Chelek 21 Parshas Terumah, Sicha Gimmel, page 164. Anyone with someone basic Jewish literacy and Yiddish language can read and understand it, instead of aimlessly posting on this forum.
Most of the questions asked here were answered in that Sicha long ago. If you open it up, who knows? Maybe you’ll even learn something new.
And as far as I recall, Rashi, Rambam and Moshe Rabeinu lived before the Bal Hatanya, so I have to admit that there is Torah outside of Chabad.😊
I need to respond to a few accusations that were made against me. I am definitely not brainwashed. I have never ever made fun of another minhog yisroel. I don’t ever recall blaming the meshichistim for anything on this forum.The only brainwashing that I have detected so far on this thread is senseless hate.
😏
litvishechossid –
I don’t think that anything minted by Matitsyohu has ever been found. On the other hand, there is a wall “painting” found in a house which existed during Bayis Sheini which has a picture of the menorah with the branches curved.litvishechossid
The same is true about Bet Shearim. The burial caves there do not predate Rabi Yehuda haNossi.@litvishechossid. If you didn’t get it, I said you should pick on the untucked shirts and straggly beards in a sarcastic manner.And no, it’s not a coded term for meshichistim.lol.😇
And there is nothing wrong with saying that Titus’s menorah was incorrect,Haha.
Put,
It’s not Titus menorah, rather it is practically almost every archaeological finding, points out to be round branches. Let it be in Caro geniza, coins, 2000 year old shuls in Tiveria, Tzipori, Jerusalem, all mosaic drawings and cavings are round. and is thus consistent with how all Klal Yisrael has known it.I understand there are some other shitos, but deciding so based on one pshat (which can very well be debated – refer to my last link I posted) against overwhelming evidence that keeps on piling up, is absurd.
Especially if that is against how all have known it.
“some other shitos”. namely Rashi and Rambam. You want to decide according to archeological suggestion? Alright. But one thing is definitive. The menorah that we know from Torah was diagonal. Anything else is speculative.
Save the anti chabad vitriol for a different thread. Calm down, take a chill and have a tea. All I am saying is that according to Rambam (and as explained by his son R Avrohom) and most probably according to Rashi, arguably the two greatest Rishonim, the menorah from Torah was diagonal. And therefore there is an insistence by lubavitcher Chassidim to portray it as such. You have a different opinion on the matter? That’s okay with me and also okay to the lubavitchers that I know.
Also, make yourself a coffee (after you finished your cup of tea), take a chelek chof aleph of likkutei sichos and study the third sicha of prashas Terumah as Sechel hayashar suggested before. You don’t even need to learn the whole sicha, just from page168 until the end. You might even enjoy it. Yes, it is a chabad source, but it’s also Torah😏😏
He says “אין חולק בדבר”; what about the אבן עזרא?
“All I am saying is that according to Rambam (and as explained by his son R Avrohom) ”
Put,
Instead of going around in circles, just read my earlier posts. The Rambam can be interpreted in many ways. Read the link i posted above. I will re-post it.:I am not disputing that there is something to the Shitah that it was diagonal, but given the above pshatim and the fact that almost every drawing, sculpture, mosaic engraving etc. that Klal Yisrael has had for the past two thousand years plus shows curved branches, you should rather say a different pshat in the Rambam that will support the above. see the below link for other pshatim:
Sorry to distract everyone from the main argument over here, but where is this assumption that there was a difference between the menorahs of bayis rishon and sheni come from?
(It sounds like you all might be coming from the assumption that gold cannot hold its own weight when it is curved (bederech hateva), but it can if it is going at an angle. Is this what you all mean? Is it even true – either half? How thick was the menorah? (Someone with a lot of time on their hands can probably do the math from the weight of a kikar, but I don’t know if a kikar of gold weighed the same as a kikar of silver.)
I think that you also mean that Moshe’s menorah, which was made al pi hanes, didn’t have these problems. But wouldn’t it have been taken by Churban Shilo?
Maybe Shlomo HaMelech had the chochma to make one, as it is possible in a special way?
Tosfos in Menachos says (in one of his pshatim) that the arms of the menorah (in Bayis Sheni) were bendable enough to spill out the oil. If so, it also shouldn’t be able to hold its own weight!?)Thanks.
Sorry for derailing yourfight about Chabad 😉Why would the Arch de Triumph (Titus’s arch) prove anything; wasn’t it made before he returned to Rome (with or without the menorah)? I always thought that the point was that the triumph (victory parade) would pass through the arch upon their return to Rome, and therefore it was made in advance (before they stole the menorah).
Still, people would know what the menorah looked like from when the Cohanim would bring it out to show it to the am by the Yomim Tovim (like in the end of Chagiga).
Why would there be a “right” and “wrong” menorah – if it isn’t made out of gold, only the number of branches are meakev, and if it is golden, is the shape meakev? I always thought that just the prachim and geviim were.
Here’s the piece GAON is referring to:
@daasyochid. See the note at the most bottom left of the page.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.