Changing the Shidduch System

I am 80 years old. Back in my day most Orthodox singles met on their own without the benefit of a Shadchan, myself included. Yes, it was proper to ask a girl out on her own. There was no shidduch crisis. Things were simple. I could not survive under today’s system.

Somehow I get a niggeling feeling that this anonymous forum ain’t gonna change anything. You want to to do something constructive you need to get the people who signed on the cheirem for peshutu shel mikroh on your side. Maybe they will make a round table discussion or a panel of todays major gevirim and Frum therapists to talk about it by next Agudah Convention.
Or maybe they won’t…….

There was a shidduch crisis 60 years ago – it was Jews marrying other peoples. The alleged “shidduch crisis” is not about how to approach people, it is about rapid growth of the community, B’H, and thus, there are more boys than girls 3 years younger. Even without shadchanim, girls would want more mature chatanim, and boys would want younger kalos.

I am thinking one of the problem of the current system is that there are many people who do this professionally that may disregard matches that are not advantageous for the shadchan. A solution is simple – try helping singles find a match through your own contacts.

So we should lower a tznius standard? Get men and women to mingle instead of having intermediaries?

See tiferes yisroel on the mishanh in r”h about the women congregating on yom kippur and tu b’av – he says it’s unthinkable that such practices would happen in the mainstream, and that this was for people who were struggling to find a shidduch.

I have a better solution. Bochurim should have better middos and women should stop reading romance novels, and tossing away good shidduchim when they don’t automatically “feel ” sparks flying.

People used to get married without even dating, and it worked just fine. Chasidim still do, and they have far fewer divorces than us litvishe who date. It can’t be all wiped away with “that’s because it’s a taboo” – what’s the proof of that?

Another hindrance to shidduchim is the fact that women who work for many years develop a career based persona, which is hard to form into a marriage union

Lakewhut:
I am not going to provide an opinion here, because I am not well enough informed on the topic.
However, I will call out the fact that you seem to be carrying a grievance.
The fact that your response to Always_Ask _Questions had nothing to do with their response and instead called out your perception of how certain shadchanim choose their clientele, is quite telling.
How about you going and dedicating yourself to arranging Shidduchim exclusively between Klal Yisroel’s poor.
While I don’t think any Shadchan ought to exclude the less affluent, it would be irresponsible towards their families were they to solely focus on them.

Avira hates Eretz Yisrael. He doesn’t have a right to express his opinion here. The avira of eretz Yisrael is machkim, but apparently for some it just makes them coocoo

The fewer divorces among the chasidim may be due to their having traditional marriages the way it was done throughout Jewish history, without them updating to an American romantic fairytale “marriage”.

Shimon hates Yiddishkeit. He doesn’t have a right to express his opinion here on Jewish topics.

Avira- even if he knew it was so and had lots of research, it’s not something you post here. You’ve done that ‘unilateral based on your vast knowledge declaration’ thing where you decide what’s real or true and then tell people they are wrong unless can bring the proof you trust from a person you trust and then you’ll decide if you even believe them. Are you inviting him to speak out against chasidim with proof? Are you aware that you are inviting halachically prohibited behavior?

Let’s try this – I am aware of more than a handful of abused, berated and/or ignored women who are not divorced and won’t divorce. Some live parallel lives to their husband’s, some aren’t even on speaking terms, some sleep in the guest room, many live a gihenom of a life and are not divorced for various reasons.
If I know that many women in my small circle of acquaintances, there must be thousands out there. Spoiler alert, I am close with someone who writes gittin, or doesn’t. There are.
Wake up dude.

shimon – quite the opposite, i love eretz yisroel, much more than the european hebrew nationalists who are fine with it being contaminated by sinfulness and tumah. I believe it should be pure and reserved for those who are fit to use it for its intended purpose, to be the gateway between heaven and earth, to be a conduit for shefa to come to the world through our mitzvos and torah learning.

I also know many a “top bochur” who remain single well into their late 20s and 30s. One boy I know, who’s phenomenal at learning, and has sterling middos, has an issue because he wants someone who fits his unique hashkofa, despite this not being a very important factor in raising a family or running a house.

“syag, something tells me you wouldn’t have a problem with my statement that bochurim need to work on their middos.”

I have no problem with vague generalities that apply to everyone. that is correct.

“but I think it’s common knowledge that bad middos are a major hindrance in finding a shidduch,

common knowledge? really? that is exactly the kind of comment I cannot agree with. I will not make a sweeping negative comment about bochurim, let alone call it “common knowledge”.

Here’s the deal. I keep harping on your comments because I believe you are unintentionally badmouthing jews, communities and presenting yourself as an authority on things. From your years of posts I gathered (not knowing if this is the reality or not) that you are a single male over twenty but closer to thirty (I’m pretty sure you said so yourself but I could be wrong).
Based on that, you give these all knowing comments about women, marriages and what the desires are of women and what they do wrong etc. As a single male, your exposure to women is a sister, aunt, mom and whoever you get redt to. Beyond that it is just hear say and spewing imaginary assumptions.
Hence my complaints about your comments on the failings of these Yidden. It is lashon hora and/or motzei shem rah to speak down on a group of jews. and to label it falsely as “common knmowledge” is sheker. This should concern you more than how many romance novels I have read (probably none. Not my thing).
If you really are an ex MO member who left, as you say, in grammar school after an awful debate issue, then your world wide conclusions are based on a hundred? two hundred? women who probably are mostly locals at that. That’s hardly a statistically sound demographic. And in the requirement to be dan lkaf zchus (by the way) you are obligated to make kinder conclusions, not embellished.

AviraDeArah A Bochur who is a Ben Torah must realize that the mitzvah of getting married and having children is a mitzvah just like learning Torah, wearing Tzitzis, and putting on Tefillin every day. The chiyuv is on him, not on his parents or his Rosh Yeshiva. Without a wife he can not fulfill this mitzvah. If asking a young woman for a date is what it takes as a step towards fulfilling this mitzvah he has to force himself to do it. Some mitzvahs are harder to fulfill than others.

syag, there are marriage horror stories in every community; I asked for evidence, because the facts are that divorce is less common, so an equally weighted fact would be necessary to counter the logical conclusion to be drawn from that fact, namely that chasidim are more successful than others in this area.

As for my grouping of ideas as “common sense” – you’re free to disagree. As for where I get my information from regarding women, it’s not assumptions, but I’m not a researcher either – ive been involved with enough people enough times to see patterns, and yes, our girls are more infleunced by non jewish culture than boys who sit and learn the whole day – are there boys who sit and learn who are influenced? sure, and there are many, many girls who have strong hashkofos, but the phenomenon is real.

in addition, what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? the same thing that happens to a boy who does that after going for a year to israel after high school, and unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves, the influence is extremely difficult to avoid.

> as someone who has previously mentioned that he has traded Torah values for higher education I can see why that would be your assumption.

I am not sure what is the point of the above insult, but I am actually asking questions here, not making any assumptions. See question marks at the end of the sentences.

Avira > what do you think happens after a 19 year old leaves seminary and goes straight to college and work? … unless the girl or boy does something to fortify themselves,

By this time, B’H the young person had about 15 years of Jewish schooling. Should we expect that they are able to fortify themselves by this time (I presume parents, friends and community did not abandon them)? I would understand that there could be some difficult cases, but the majority should be able to withstand going to classes or work.

There is a question why Yaakov needed to go to the yeshiva after learning with his Father. The answer is that Shem was teaching how to live in a goyishe world. So, maybe those yeshivos whose graduates are not ready to face the world, should add such subjects.

ujm, we indeed bring a story of Yochanan as an extreme example, not as a typical case. We also have an educational system that learned from the previous times.

Reb Shlomo, when do you think hishtadlus ends? Should a boy have to speak romantically? Should he have to compliment the girl on her appearance? Should he have to go to movies, if the woman he thinks is his bashert insists on going to one for a date?

Hishtadlus cannot infringe on any other Jewish values, tznius being the obvious one. If something is a breach of tznius then it leaves the category of histadlus, and enters kochi ve’otzem yadi.

syag, you don’t know much about me and my activities; i don’t understand why you are certain that I’m going off of 3rd hand accounts.

As it happens to be, I work with single men, and on occasion, I work with the other side of a shidduch as well. Though I don’t do it very often, I’ve heard the same story over, and over again; he’s a great boy, has great middos, learns well, but “i didn’t feel anything”

I said I don’t know but that you have made it very clear that men should not be mixing with women. So if you are going to give over tons of factual data on women then you either are misleading people or not following your own rules.

And by the way, “i didn’t feel anything” is what people say to a third party when they don’t want to tell you what they are thinking. To take it at face value is ridiculous.

Syag > And by the way, “i didn’t feel anything” is what people say to a third party when they don’t want to tell you what they are thinking

I agree here. I hear from people that they are under pressure not to sound too picky, so they are coming up with such answers. And also we should nit press ladies into marriage. They will be mostly the ones raising the kids looking, and behaving, like the gentleman they are planning to marry. They have a right to like those middos.

Syag,i think the catch all phrase you’re referring to is ” the personalities didn’t match”

Not feeling anything is a different story. It begins with the assumption that they’re supposed to feel something, which ia an error and has prevented many successful shidduchim.

I also have no idea what talking to a woman I don’t know about a shidduch has to do with mixing genders. It’s not a social conversation.

Perhaps assuming I’m single also grants a measure of ability in your mind to dismiss my observations on the nature and behavior of women?

Are you aware of the meaning of catch all phrase? These are not data, they are polite excuses. For you to count them up and use them as census is meaningless.

I don’t need a measure of ability in my mind to dismiss your observations. I am able to see what’s out there myself and I see how much it varies in different places. What I dismiss is your chutzpah in thinking you have enough knowledge of women to make negative conclusions and call them common knowledge. It is still motzei shem rah and you seem to avoid acknowledging that.