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Orthodox Jewish Neighborhoods have a certain characteristic to them. This is obviously especialy true with Chasidish neighborhoods.
For example stores are closed on Shabbos, most attend private school etc etc.
This came up with the Westhampton Eruv for example here is the NYT
A similar situation is going on with Kiryas Yoel
Now in my mind, while true the above is still not much more than good old fasioned anti-semitism. Granted the nighborhood will proabably change, but as long as doen legally and other’s rights arent violated too bad. Yes you may have to drive a little more to shop on Saturday and there may be less decorations during December but this is a free country.
Keeping people out solely because the “character” of the nighborhood will change (again when other’s rights arent being infringed upon, and is done legally)is wrong.
What do you think?
I mostly agree. I think the store owners may have a valid practical concern which is unrelated to antisemitism, but most of the opposition probably is motivated by antisemitism, although they can’t admit it.
“Now in my mind, while true the above is still not much more than good old fasioned anti-semitism. “
i prefer not to disagree with the same person over several threads because it gives the impression i am just randomly picking on you but — i really disagree. i dont think you can decide that a valid point is also anti semitism. maybe its just valid. while i have no doubt i will be misunderstood (and not sure i really care these days)i think the large frum communities are unfortunately unrealistic about the (handful of) negative effects we unfortunately make on our neighbors and when they are complained about we like to accuse them of anti semitism.
clarification: While i would much rather live in a homogenous town, it would have to be a law abiding, litter free, every-driving-the-speed-limit town that sparkles and screams kiddush Hashem. if not, it does more harm to us than good.
In the westhampton case, those stores need to make their entire yearly income in about 12 weeks and a good chunk of that on Friday , Saturday and Sunday and Since shopping on friday and Saturdays nights is out, it is not good for those businesses. its also not good for business if you own say a restaurant and orthodox people will not patronize it.
In Kiryat Joel’s case there are concerns about things like sewers which are maintained by the county and have capacity issues.
there is no valid reason to ban people, however they can make rules to make it difficult like laws limiting number of occupied dwelling per lot like limiting apartment buildings and attached houses, those would not be seen as anti-semetic as long as its passed in the entire county
It should be noted that a large portion of the aforementioned anti-semitism, and indeed the strongest component of said anti-semitism, is by non-Orthodox Jews embarrassed by Orthodox Jews who effectively are self-hating Jews who hate their Orthodox brethren.
In Westhampton this point is especially true. Those opposing the Eruv the loudest and the strongest are all Reform Jews. And, yes, they oppose the Eruv because they don’t want Orthodox Jews moving into their town. Opposing Jews from buying homes and moving in to “your town” because they are Jewish is perhaps the most prototypical form of anti-Semitism.
Westhampton sparkles and shines. It’s a rich town and the Jews coming in are MO and well-off and won’t ch”v take away from its “sparkle”… The stores can be open Saturday night if they wish to, as that’s when Frum Jews are looking to get out. It won’t become like the five towns anytime soon as it’s homes are prohibitively expensive. So while this shopkeeper may have valid concerns most others don’t and are probably self hating Jews that can’t tolerate seeing successful Jews still observing the Mitzvos which they or their forefathers abandoned.
In KJ the village is doing everything to expand sewer and water capacity, traffic flow is good and yet whatever they wish to do regarding water and sewer is blocked — or tried to — by the haters. There is no other word for these guys complaining about capacity when if not for them everything would have been taken care of successfully.
“Keeping people out solely because the “character” of the nighborhood will change (again when other’s rights arent being infringed upon, and is done legally)is wrong. What do you think?”
I think communities, Jewish and non-Jewish, SHOULD legally be able to enforce the historic culture, character and “look” of a certain town. Would you want Chinese coming into Yerushalayim in droves and putting up dragon symbols and mandarin signs all over the place? However, I dont think putting up an eiruv changes the charachter or look of a town.
“but as long as doen legally and other’s rights arent violated too bad.”
This will lead to a world where you no one will be able to say “this city is like this”. Every city will become exactly the same as every other city, the only difference being one thing- money. Some cities will be gentrified others wont- but all the character and traditions of a particular city will be lost.
All they have to do anyway is prevent multi-family housing, apartment buildings, increase cost of living etc and it will make it hard for frum families to move in.
Shabbos ends too late in the summer for the restaurants in the Hamptons to open up.
The people who go to the hamptons can afford the housing there, they are not poor people
Back in the 20th century it was not uncommon for a Jewish neighborhood to change over as goyim moved in, and many of the Jewish residents were quite annoyed since the newcomers looked different, had different lifestyles, and shopped at different types of stores. While such tensions lead to people saying nasty things about the newcomers, it isn’t something to get too worried about as it is quite normal, and occurs everywhere in the world when a neighborhood changes its demographics.
ZD: covered up anti-Semitism is insidious and harmful. I don’t understand how you’re basically advocating for it.
And in Westhampton zoning won’t be an issue that prevents Orthodox Jews from moving there. They want to live there precisely because it’s this tony, perfectly suburban beach town with huge homes on large lots.
And if an African American wants to move to KJ and is prevented from purchasing a house
What would you call that?
As a practical matter no African-American wants to purchase a home in KJ, and as a realistic matter none have ever tried, because they’d feel completely out of place where virtually 100% of the population is Satmar Chasidic Jewish and they’d be the only person out of tens of thousands of people who are not. So none have tried.
The homes in KJ are privately owned and can be sold by the private homeowner to whomever they want. So any issues on this regard would simply be a matter between the private owner of 429 Torah Avenue (or whatever the address of the home in question) and would not be a public municipal or governmental matter.
I don’t think it’s ever happened because they are not looking for this type of community either but I can imagine you shouting racism the loudest…
What I don’t get is why you bend over backwards against your co-religionists. Fair housing rules were made for a reason, and disallowing an eiruv is simply a way to prevent religious Jews THAT CAN COMPETE FOR HOUSING IN A FAIR MARKET from moving in.
There have been cases of communites in rockland asking other jews (“Not as Frum jews”) not to move there.
And would you want a Jew who isnt as religious as you maybe the woman dresses in pants , hair oncovered moving next to you.
What I prefer is irrelevant.
What is legal and right should be what you defend, but when it comes to religious Jews you tend to support the other side even when they’re blatantly wrong.
So whether we’re perceived as the underdog or the aggressor, in your mind we don’t have any rights. I’m not crawling into a hole to hide anytime soon.
The African American can be proud of his heritage and WE FRUM JEWS SHOULD BE PROUD, PROSPEROUS AND MULTIPLY! If that means moving into new neighborhoods or expanding in existing ones, I’ll say B”H and Go ahead!
ubiq, what if KJ passed a law that you can hang 10 non-Jews every Purim? That sounds like a bad law. I dunno, I’m sure we can both conjure up many hypothetically bad laws.
Why is it wrong to support a 40 x 100 lot (Or even larger plots of land) with a detached house with a manicured pristine lawn with a late model car in the driveway.
People move to the Suburbs for that reason, they dont want to live to close to their neighbors, they want a certain lifestyle . Its not Anti-semitism to support that. That is what the Suburbs are , and if you dont like it, dont live there.
When you live next to a shul, people think they can drive and park in front of your house and block your driveway because “THEY ARE LATE TO MINYAN” and you should understand and let them do it.
If you dont want the shul for this reason, Are you an Anti-Semite?
I live across the street from a part time shul and people do do this and parking is impossible weekday mornings because everyone drives to shul even when they live 2 blocks away.
What if KJ passed a law that women must keep they arms covered at all times (There is a sign there now, but its not enforced)
It’s certainly understandable that they don’t want the character of their town to change, and if they play it right and use the right words [=don’t use the wrong words], could have a legal right as well.
It would be illegal under State and Federal law and unconstitutional. I don’t even understand why you’re asking.
ZD: because we were discussing Westhampton Beach where nobody is stopping them from having a perfect suburb. And still they resist.
It would be illegal under State and Federal law and unconstitutional. I don’t even understand why you’re asking.
I dont think it would be illegal to make a law forbidding stores from opening on Saturday (Blue laws are legal..Bergen County, NJ forbids stores opening on Sunday, unless they are closed on Saturday)
ubiq, the Jews won in court and had the Eruv ban in Westhampton overturned because the ordinance banning the Eruv was an unconstitutional interference of government in religion. There is no roundabout way to make a ban that is intended to inhibit a religious practice be constitutional by pretending the law was enacted for an allowable secular purpose when the true intent, even if not admitted and outright denied, was religious based discrimination. It is unconstitutional on the face of it.
You are are asking about hypothetical laws that can’t be legal any way you cut it.
I wouldn’t call it racism because they’d object to an Italian white Christian family moving in as well.
But definitely KJ made a private, religious village originally, and wants it to stay this way. I think KJ has by-laws regarding women not driving etc. but don’t think it can be legally enforced. So when and if it happens that they discriminate against some Chrisirtian that wants to move in we’ll argue about it.
Now it’s not a hypothetical and it would be nice if we’d all advocate for our fellow Jews when they’re right just as the African Americans or Asians would similarly stick up for their brethren.
I dont know rules in KJ, but Im thinking the no women driving is more of an informal rule among the people who live there. If there was a traffic stop of a woman driving that would be illegal.
Back to the Sewer issue. expanding the Sewer IS a big deal especially if new pipes have to be built and new sewage plants have to be built to handle the added sewage. You are talking about tens of millions of dollars. And besides nobody wants to live near a Sewage plant. It is not Anti-Semetic if people decide they dont want their tax dollars spent on this. Just like you think its fair not to spend your tax dollars on Football and band at East Ramapo High School
ZD: everything is possible, but don’t you think it’s possible or likely to be due to anti-semitism?
The pipeline to tap into NYC water I believe is funded mainly from federal dollars. I don’t think it was just neighbors not wanting a sewer plant either, if there was one proposed. Most of this infrastructure would actually benefit the rest of Monroe as it actually eases their own water issues — by KJ being less dependent on local wells.
So you can choose to accept all these excuses as legitimate even when you see their overall hatred or you can call a spade a spade.
Would you want Chinese coming into Yerushalayim in droves and putting up dragon symbols and mandarin signs all over the place?
“We arent talking about what you want. theres nothing wrong with WANTING your community to stay a certain way. There is something very wrong in my opinion with enforicing it by discriminating against others.”
I disagree, I do not think there is anything wrong with discrimination and enforcement regarding the culture and look of a city. I also believe cities should be able to establish dress-codes and modesty standards and enforce that.
People, I ask you again, would any of you be ok with Chinese people moving into Yerushalayim by the thousands and putting up dragon symbols, mandarin signs and making “China towns” on every block in the old city?
Yes or no
In civic life you have to give to get. You cant expect others to pay for something you need unless you are willing to give them something they want. Being their neighbor is not enough.
Even if something like the sewer line partially benefits them, It mostly benefits KJ and if the other people dont want to pay for it, that is their perogotive.
Compare the Sewer line to the East Ramapo school district. Orange county refuses to pay for the sewer line and they are anti-semitic even if they partially benefit, however in East Ramapo you refuse to pay even though you partially benefit (Special ed for example) and those who want you to pay are anti-semetic. You cant have it both ways.
You need to give to get in a community.
In 1975, I remember my paternal grandmother complaining that her building on Ocean Parkway was going Schvarze.
I didn’t see any black people and questioned this…………….
Her reply: Black Hat
The yeshiva crowd was moving in
The St. Louis people would’ve fit in just fine in the lower east side at the time.
Sorry ZD but your logic and twisted facts are too convoluted for me to follow.
One point though: the residents of KJ and Rockland do pay income and sales tax (and property tax through the roof in Rockland) so it’s not all “them” paying for “us” like you make it seem.
Impossible to be done in a constitutional way, as I explained.
Very sad, I guess no one is going to answer my question how they would feel if Yerushalayim turned into a china-town.
There is no reason why the people on the St Louis would have changed the look and character of the town if said town had rules and regulation regarding zoning, dress-code, etc
There are many towns that preserve buildings going back to the 1700s and have zoning laws regarding the type of look certain buildings must abide to. All the minor details would have to go through a committee of some sort. But law and politics makes this impossible in many towns, to set rules maintaining the culture of their home town- and you cant blame the people for getting upset. Especially if its a small town where people grew up in generation after generation.
But the basic idea is that its dishonest to call “not wanting the place you and your parents and grandparents grew up to drastically change in one generation” anti-semtism. Especially when you would feel the same way if thousands of Chinese started moving into Yerushalayim and opened restaurants with mandarin signs all over the place selling roasted pork outside of their store fronts.
“Would you want Chinese coming into Yerushalayim in droves”
Chinese people have been moving into the Lower East Side in droves.
“I do not think there is anything wrong with discrimination and enforcement regarding the culture and look of a city.”
Precisely what anti-Semitic goyim said back when Jews wanted to move into their neighborhoods. Example: Way back when the only synagogue in Riverdale was a Reform Synagogue, the Irish and German residents tried to keep Jews out. Today Riverdale has eight Orthodox synagogues thanks to Big Government enforcing Fair Housing Laws.
There is not an easy answer and you cant do it for EVERY town, such as Brooklyn, since there has to be places for OTHER cultures and “looks” to grow also.
The problem is given US law its hard to preserve the look of ANY town, let alone every town. This is not antisemitism, its just an affection for ones own culture. There is a difference.
Much of New England for example has a certain look and feel the local populace wish to maintain. This is not antisemitism.
“Today Riverdale has eight Orthodox synagogues thanks to Big Government enforcing Fair Housing Laws.”
Thats great! But should the Germans and Irish have a place for them also? Where their culture and history can thrive as well? Or should everything be a free-for-all where every town is nothing but a mish-mash of everything?
I would LIKE to have a Jewish city, with only synagogues. i DONT CARE if the Germans and Irish have a town with only churches. It doesn’t bother me.
Do you know there’s a theory that the medieval Jewish ghettoes were actually built for the protection of Yidden? Just thought I’d throw that in as that’s what you seem to be supporting.
Nobody here minds if there are Christian towns. But if all of Brooklyn for example will continue on its path of gentrification and your kids won’t be able to rent or buy there, what happens if the closest town that allows Jews in (some are Buddhist or Muslim as well…) is in Kentucky? And there are borders of how far Jews may move there as well, so they don’t bump into the town over.
I hope you get my drift, but your scenario ain’t pretty. Again, there used to be laws in Europe of where Jews may live and we definitely don’t want to go back to that era.
Welcome to the US and it’s fair housing laws, for better or worse.
This is a universal issue. Many comments people make are clearly for anti-semetic reasons and some just grab at any reason they can think of to oppose any change. Sometimes, their concerns are understandable and impact the quality of their lives, like putting a chicken processing plant within or near a residential community.
At the same time, everyone, including Frum Jews want to maintain the character of their communities and will resist any change.
Siting economical reasons of stores being closed on Shabbos or Jews not spending money on Shabbos, is ridiculous. Do any of us spend less money because of it? We just spend it on different days. That’s an example of grabbing at straws in an attempt to justify an absurd opinion.
Bottom line, we should also look at things objectively and put ourselves in the other person’s shoes to see if they have a reasonable concern before we jump to the anti-semetic card.
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