Chalav yisroel

Yudel: Why wouldn’t that make all of our beef treif as well?

There is no such thing as cholov stam anymore (except Germany), it’s called akum or cholov treif, per Igros Moshe

Where in Igros Moshe?

Rab Belsky’s heter is not based on the established facts the Vets do to the cows.

Rav Belsky’s heter indeed seems weak, but others are mattir based on bittul (R’ Yecheskel Roth, and I believe that’s the basis on which R’ Dovid Feinstein is mattir as well.

DA: What do they do with dairy cows when their milk production decreases due to age etc?

The question should be if they look out for scar tissue from the DA procedure after the cow is slaughtered. Which would make sense if it actually renders the animal treif.

The Igros Moshe refers to non cholov yisroel milk as cholov ha”companies”.

“Never seen a camel on the NY Thruway”
In the category of “don’t always believe what you read on the internet”, the following comments were attributed to Rav Moishe’s son-in-law, Rav Tendler, on the occasions of Rav Moishe’s 25th yahrtzeit.

Eating non-glatt kosher meat is not the only controversial stance Rav Moshe took. More famously, Rav Moshe ruled that all milk in the United States certified by the government as coming from a cow or other kosher animal is considered Chalav Yisrael. People still debate what Rav Moshe’s “true” opinion on the topic is, but, according to Ravi Tendler, “He meant exactly what he said. What he said was that we only drink Chalav Yisrael, but milk in America is Chalav Yisrael because the halacha says, ‘Im ein tamei b’edro’ – if the farmer does not have any non-kosher animals on his farm, then you don’t have to watch him. All you have to do is stay outside the farm to make sure no one comes in with a camel or a donkey.” , Rav Moshe argues that one may rely on government supervision to ensure that milk is kosher, but Rabbi Tendler said that in personal conversations, his father-in-law often stressed that dairy farmers in America simply do not have camels and other non-kosher animals on their premises. “He used to say to me, ‘We go to the Catskill Mountains on vacation; I never saw a camel. I never saw anybody milking a camel.’ We spoke about this very often and really in a kind of light mood. He didn’t understand what [his opponents] didn’t understand [and why they were attacking him].”

Everyone in Rav Moshe’s house drank regular milk, Rabbi Tendler said, and the only reason Rav Moshe himself did not do so is because he did not want “to be mattir neder” – to formally change his lifelong practice, dating to the first 40 years of his life in Europe, of drinking “traditional” Chalav Yisrael”

R’ Moshe zt”l picked his teshuvos for the Igros very carefully. They were meant to apply to the klal as a whole, and not just for specific cases. Letters or teshuvos that he wrote which are NOT in the Igros aren’t necessarily intended for the entire public.
The teshuvos which R’ Moshe put into the Igros Moshe don’t say anything about shas hadchak for using chalav ha’Companies. One letter which states it was written to a yeshiva which was thinking of using chalav haCompanies due to the cost of chalav Yisrael. R’ Moshe held strongly that a yeshiva should use chalav Yisrael, so he wrote it should only be done b’shas hadchak.
Any teshuva which states shas hadchak was not meant for the public. It’s only modern-day kanoim, who are trying to show how holy they are, who are now pushing this agenda, trying to claim that R’ Moshe was really opposed to it.

Mr dasyuchid. Please site your sources for statements on Rav moshe. Ex safer, page and paragraph
U should in general always site your sources for your statement

Any teshuva which states shas hadchak was not meant for the public.

The teshuva to R’ Weinfeld was published in the מדריך לכשרות, and R’ Binyamin Forst shlit”a reprinted in in his sefer. So the Debriciner Rov zt”l and yblch”t Rav Forst Shlit”a don’t feel that way.

Please site your sources for statements on Rav moshe. Ex safer, page and paragraph
U should in general always site your sources for your statement

Which statement? Here is one source: (page 6)

http://www.israel613.com/books/MADRICH_KASHRUT17-18-H.pdf

בע”ה
ב’ דר”ח תמוז תשט”ז,

מע”כ ידידי המאו”ג מהר”ר אברהם וויינפעלד שליט”א
שלום וברכה כל הימים

הנה בדבר חלב הקאמפאניעס שבמדינותנו ודאי יש טעמים להתיר לומר שאינם בכלל האיסור שאמרו חז”ל וכדחזינן שהרבה מקילין בזה מפני הדוחק, בהרבה מקומות. אבל במקום שאפשר להשיג אף שעולה בקצת טרחה יותר ואף ביוקר מעט, חלב של ישראל, אין מן הראוי להקל בזה וצריכים להשיג חלב של ישראל

והנני ידידו
משה פיינשטיין

This topic is a waste of time . Those who want to believe what they want will not change their mind regardless. If anyone wants to know what Rav Moshe really held let them go speak with Rav Moshe’s relatives. Also the idea that Chalav Yisrael is equal to chalav hacompanies is not true. Chalav hacompanies takes much longer to spoil . It also should be noted that the Pri Chadash heter(used by Jews of Amsterdam and himself) is not the heter of the Rav Moshe. Rav Soloveitchik held of an additional heter as well. Rav Moshe held that yedia is like seeing,plus mirsas. Even if you want to say that the Teshuvos are the end all,Rav Moshe clearly states not consider one who relies on the heter an avrayon. Let everyone follow their Rabbi,and for those who want to know lmaaseh ask around.

All those saying that Rav Moshe Z”l didn’t limit his Heter to extenuating circumstances, please see the letter I typed from him on the previous page. Seems many here missed it.

There is a story told (like all stories, if it confirms your position you’ll believe it, if not, not) that R Moshes daughter in law once gave him something Milchig to eat, and afterward realized that it wasn’t Chalav Yisrael, and told him. R Moshe immediately went to throw it up.
(I heard this from a prominent Rov, who heard it from a Yid who lived in R Moshes building.)

Rav Moshe clearly wrote (in the Igros) that a Yirei Shamayim (“Baal Nefesh”) should not use Cholov Stam (“HaCompanies”).

If you want to get into the whole Rav Tendler/?Rav Moishe Z;TL issues regarding credibility of Rav Tendler’s recollections of his father-in-law, save it for another thread.

That’s ridiculous. You can’t quote someone with questionable credibility and not expect it to be pointed out.

Ay least the people who eat jalav akum have the eter of R Moshe. I don’t think that any Rab has given an eter for judge any person or speak about anyone without even knowing anything about that person.
We must take care of what we take out of our mouths as much as what we take in.

According to the heter for Cholov HaCompanies/Stam, you should not need any hechsher whatsoever to use non-certified milk in the United States. You should be able to freely drink any American milk even with no hechsher at all. The heter says you can simply rely on the US government and the FDA.

So why don’t user of the Cholov Stam heter use any Cholov Stam milk or products that has no hechsher?

“As to DY’s skepticism of Rav Tendler’s credibility, I’ll repeat my original admonition to take anything attributed to anonymous internet sources with a grain of salt.”

Meaning we should be skeptical of it, yet our skepticism seems to bother you. Was it a hollow disclaimer?

If you take the greater Rav Tendler controversy out of the question, the story still makes no sense as you presented it. It seems to say that behind closed doors, Reb Moshe held like the Pri Chodosh, and his teshuvah is just something he told to the masses. There’s no reason to believe he would do that.

“Most, if not all, cholov ha”companies” have top notch reliable hashgachas.”

While this statement is true, in of itself, it should NOT be misconstrued, twisted and then extrapolated that the hechsher is certifying that the milk in the product is in fact milk from a cow (or other kosher source). In fact, it is NOT. They rely on the psak of R’ Moshe that if the company says it is cows milk, it is cows milk. They do NOT have someone at the farm verifying the source of the milk. This is true even if the certification is on nothing more than a container of milk. (why the hechsher is on the milk may be as simple as the contract with the certifying agency and the company, or, there may be things added to the milk that require hechsher).

As always, do not rely on something you read on the internet. Call the OU, OK, ChafK or any other hechsher that certifies products made with “chalav hacompanies” for yourself and ask them directly, what their symbol on a container of milk implies, if anything.

We eat beef from steers (male) not from cows.
no outside links

Meno: Please clarify what point you’re trying to convey. Are you asserting that if milk that has no hechshor whatsoever is being sold in the U.S., people who use Cholov Stam would have no problem buying it and drinking it and actually do so?

Some would and some wouldn’t, just like some people wouldn’t drink bottled water without a hechsher.

But my point was that your claim that people who rely on R’ Moshe’s hetter still wouldn’t drink milk without any hechsher is simply not true. It just happens to be that most milk has a hechsher anyway.

@Joseph, good point, but wouldn’t that go for literally any other food that is TECHNICALLY kosher, yet doesn’t have a hechsher, e.g. dried fruit?

Skepticism of Dr. Tendler’s credibility does not stem from anonymous internet commentators. The Agudas Yisroel released a letter over 35 years documenting Tendler’s lying about Rav Moshe’s halachic positions. The Aguda’s letter is easily findable online and has a precise indisputable outline of the sheker perpetrated by that Y.U. fellow.

There are other animals besides cows and pigs.

Whether or not financial incentive plays a role is a machlokes between the Chasam Sofer and the Pri Chodosh (others as well). As Rav Moshe writes, the minhag in klal Yisroel was always like the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Moshe held that his heter works even according to the Chasam Sofer.

Joseph, be careful how you use your arguments. You stated that if the circumstances changed, then the psak changes. By your logic, we have had a calendar for 1800 years so chutz laaretz should no longer observe yom tov shainy.

ASAIK the only other animal that is milked that is Non-kosher is a camel and Camel milk is not cheap either.

I dont see people running up and wanting to drink Rat Milk

The “Great Value” (walmart private label) milk does not have a hechsher on it.

According to the OU Product Search, Great Value Milk is OU-certified (when bearing the OU symbol). You can even see a picture of it on the Walmart website with an OU-D.

And also you’re not Joseph.

“Great Value Milk is OU-certified (when bearing the OU symbol). ”

The Great Value milk sold in the Walmart Supercenter in Harrison, NJ, which qualifies as the greater NY area, does NOT have an OU.

And, how do you know I’m not Joseph?