Chalav Yisroel exceptions

Yes to all your questions. Some people make up their own rules (“I use CY milk but CY cottage cheese is too expensive”) and some people have a more defensible basis (there’s an idea that may or may not be correct that the milk of non-kosher animals simply can’t be made into whatever — butter, cheese, you name it). Regarding your side note, outside major frum population areas, CY products tend to be unavailable or have crazy prices.

“Are there different shittos about chalav yisroel”

No. All agree there is a takanas chazal. There is disagreement whether the commercial milk sold in the USA under government oversight and regulation satisfies this takanas chazal.

“or do people just make up their own rules.”

Personally, I dont know a large enough percentage of “people” to state one way or another what “people” do or dont do.

“chalav stam”

the proper term is chalav shel hakompanies – IE milk produced under government oversight and regulation.

“And what about products on dairy equipment only. Is that considered chalav stam.”

You mean, chalav shel hacompanies, right?

“On a side note, I am amazed the number of people who no longer or who never have adhered to chalav yisroel.”

I am hard pressed to find anyone who does not. I am familiar with people who drink milk labeled chalav yisroel, and people who drink chalav produced under government oversight and regulation which according to their poskim satisfy the takanas chazal.

Flatbusher, there are many different opinions about different types of dairy products.

Some shittos are meikil on butter and some on cheese. On a practical level, soft cheeses not labeled as Cholov Yisroel are not g’vinas Yisroel, because the OU goes according to the shittah that it’s not required, but it’s a machlokes. Some are not makpid on powdered milk because there is a shittah which holds that way . There’s a machlokes whether one must be machmir on keilim if he’s machmir on not eating Cholov Stam.

In short, probably most combinations of chumrah/kulah have a leg to stand on. Whether the individual decided on his own for arbitrary reasons, went through the sugya, or asked a shailah, is something you would have to ask him or her.

There’s a machlokes whether one must be machmir on keilim if he’s machmir on not eating Cholov Stam.

Which shitta that requires one avoid Cholov Stam then permits one to utilize Cholov Stam keilim without it affecting the status of the CY food on said keilim?

Is using cholov stam keilim the same idea as consuming food that is “DE” (from the hechsheirim that label dairy equipment certified food differently than dairy)?

No

“The question is whether the food is still pareve”? The bigger question seems to be whether those makpid on CY or permitted to consume DE or not.

I was also wondering if DE kosher certified commercial food has the same halachic implications as Cholov Yisroel food made in Cholov Stam keilim at home, for those makpid on eating CY. (Obviously in the latter case the food is milichigs.)

(Obviously in the latter case the food is milichigs.)

That depends on the case, and how you define “milchigs”.

Another problem with OU “chalav stam” is that the OU allows milk from cows which have had their abomasum pierced. If your posek holds that this makes the cow a treifa, OU chalav stam is just treif (because the cows that get pierced are more than 1/60).

Two things:

1) apushatayid- You are simply mistaken. Without Reb Msshe zt”l’s heter, there are only two type of milk; Cholov Yisroel which is kosher, and Cholov Akum which is not. Reb Moshe is the one who classified the milk of the companies as Cholov Stam, not Cholov Akum, and permitted the milk, albeit not as a l’chatchila.

2) It is important to note, that the heter of butter no longer applies. Although many poskim permitted butter because it can only be made with cows milk, nowadays their are dairy additives which are added to the butter. Those additives/ingredients are Cholov Yisroel sensitive, and therefore for those who are makpid on Cholov Yisroel, there is no heter to eat Cholov Stam butter.

You know, I’ve always been told that cheese can only be made from the milk of kosher animals (not “processed cheese food”). Now I read that there is a special Serbian cheese made from the milk of Balkan donkeys. At about $1000/lb, I doubt that you’ll find it in the dairy case at Shoprite but it does give added reason to be makpid on cholov and givinas Yisroel

Redleg, they’ve figured out how to add the proper enzymes to coagulate different types of milk to form cheese. There are cheaper cheeses from milk of a beheimah temeiah than what you mentioned, such as from camel’s milk.

The common heter for cholov stam is used for the source of milk used in kosher cheese (e.g. Miller’s), but the actual issur of gevinas akum (affecting the cheese making process) is still applicable even if you hold of R’ Moshe’s heter.

Um…

Gevinas Akum is prohibited. Period. Cholov Stam cheese is not Gevinas Akum. It is cheese made with Cholov Stam, supervised by a Jew, making it Gevinas Yisroel made out of Cholov Stam milk.

I wonder why I don’t see gallon containers of Chalav Yisroel in local stores. Consumers might save money if gallons were sold and this might encourage some to use it.

It would just make any spoilage issues worse. Most consumers wouldn’t buy the gallons, however WIC beneficiaries would be compelled to get the gallon size driving families that aren’t Makpid on CY to switch their WIC benefits to CS brands.

Gavra, there’s a famous Chazon Ish about this. He talks about 2000 year tekufos. I don’t have the citation on hand.

Simply put, the twelve month lifespan (which is itself a machlokes) is how the identity of treifos is determined, but once we have a list of which perforations are considered a treifah, it’s still a treifah even if it lives longer, including if new treatments become available. The gemara you cited clls it a siman, not a sibah.

ZD, basically correct, but soft cheese is actually a machlokes, although common minhag (and OU policy) is to be meikil.

“it does give added reason to be makpid on cholov and givinas Yisroel”

I’ll be sure to keep this in mind when purchasing cheese in Serbia.

“I wonder why I don’t see gallon containers of Chalav Yisroel in local stores.”

It doesnt make sense for the producers and sellers. As a general rule of thumb, the larger the size, the lower the unit cost. In the case of milk, if for example, half gallon sells for $2.99 – a gallon will sell for say $4.79 (not $4.98) this is true of the quart and half gallon sizes sold already. You the consumer will buy the same gallon of milk whether you buy it in a gallon container or in 2 half gallon containers. From the perspective of the milk company, why should they leave 20 cents on the table gallon after gallon. From the perspective of the store owners (no I didnt measure, but I did ask a store owner in my neighborhood about something similar), more shelf space is required for a gallon bottle than 2 half gallons. the store owner puts less product at a lower price out for his customers. How does he win? Of course given the average family size, bli ayin hara, of the chalv yisroel consuming family, gallon sized containers makes a lot of sense from the consumer perspective.

DY The takana on gvinas akum is, as ypu say, separate from the takana on chalav akum. The reasoning for the takana is a six way machlokes. Only Rashi connects the the two takanas. The remaining reasons range from rennet shel Hekdash to gilui (Rabanu Tam’s shita.) The general consensus is the takana is against animal rennet from a non kosher (nevailah) animal. This is problematic as rennet form anywhere isn’t a food and is quite inedible. Nevertheless, the general practice is to follow the takana and only eat gvinas Yisroel. The existence of donkey cheese just reinforces my determination to obey the takana. Oddly, the fact that cheese made from donkey milk doesn’t have much bearing on C’Y. While other animals are milked for milk, horse milk or camel milk is even less available than donkey cheese 9except maybe camels milk in Dearborn)

Modern Milking machines cannot milk any animals except cows. Its almost impossible to mix milks from differnet animals

So it very well might be that there is Donkey Cheese, but you have to get it very differently than cows milk cheese. The udder sizes are different and the pipes for the cows udders will not fit any other animal.

To get Donkey milk you would need to buy a milking machine that milks donkey udders.

If you hold that once the wound heals the cow is no longer a Treifah

Does anyone hold this way?

Today, the heter is only stronger than before.

According to the OU. According to the Nirbater Rov, in a speech he gave at an AKO conference several years ago, the heter is no longer valid. When I asked a different well known posek for his opinion, he told me (and asked not to be quoted), “You should be machmir”.

He didn’t say why. He said it in response to my bringing up the Nirbater Rov’s opiniin, so that is the implication.

The DA issue came to the forefront after Rav Moshe was niftar, and I don’t think (but could be mistaken) that he was quoted as being mattir.

Rav Dovid does apparently still hold that cholov stam is muttar mei’ikar hadin, so that would mean that he is meikil on both issues. My point is just that the heter applying today is not l’kulei alma, but there’s still whom to rely upon.

I don’t know why you are dismissing out of hand something which some serious talmidei chachomim hold to be a problem.

Why does Chalav Yisrael have any spoilage issues?

Bacteria.

Personally, I buy smaller amounts more frequently during the summer, and very infrequently have spoilage. The point about gallon containers is valid, though. For some reason, probably handling, it has been observed that CY milk has more issues than CS. I don’t know if anyone ever did a real head to head comparison or it’s just a stereotype, but there is that perception. A gallon container will be more likely to spoil than one half gallon container bought after another, and even than two bought together, because it will spend more time unrefrigerated.

Yes, the few times I’ve seen gallon containers, the price was basically the same, perhaps ten cents less.

yitzy99,

the reason you don’t find CY gallons is because of a law that regulates the price of a gallon of milk, which currently in NJ is somewhere LESS than $4 a gallon. that law doesn’t apply to half gallons so the CY companies can have you pay $2.79 per half gallon ($5.58 gallon) and make money that way.

There is something in the law that allows you not to fall under the regulation IF you sell less than “X” amount of gallon containers which is why the “special” brands are priced high. If CY went to mostly gallons, they would fall into the regulations.