Home › Forums › Litoeles H'rabim! › Chalav yisroel
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February 17, 2019 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #1680772MmarchetteParticipant
Why is chalav yisroel yogurt sweeter than chalav stam yogurt? Why do the chalav yisroel companies need to add double the amount of sugar?!
February 17, 2019 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1680919JosephParticipantHow do you know? You shouldn’t have been eating Cholov Stam!
February 17, 2019 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1680961Yogurt has basically three types of sugars:
Lactose – a naturally occurring sugar found in milk;
Fruit (in fruit flavored yogurt) – a mix of sucrose, fructose and glucose;
Sugar – “free sugar” added.When yogurt is made from skim milk or low fat milk, the companies often need to add sugar to compensate for the lost lactose sugar.
Not all sugars are to be treated equally and there is “bad” sugar that should be limited in our diets vs sugar that doea does not harm healthy people..
Even checking the nutritional facts for gm of sugar may not reveal the breakdown of the sugar sources.
The cholov akum yogurts vary widely in sugar content: The lowest supermarket brands have less than 5 gm sugar, while certain varieties of Dannon has 12 gm sugar, Stoneyfield has 24 gm, Yoplait has 27 gm,
To say cholov yisroel brands have significantly more sugar is simply factually inaccurate.
February 17, 2019 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1680990bk613ParticipantMaybe Mmarchette used to be modern orthodox and was chozer b’tsheuva because of your posts, isn’t that why you post in the coffee room, like you claimed in the Watching sports thread? You should be kinder to those who you helped bring back to “true Torah yiddeshkeit”.
February 17, 2019 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1681002JosephParticipantbk, there’s emes to that, yasher koach. But, still, he should have some busha that he ever ate it and not casually refer to it without acknowledging the error.
February 17, 2019 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1681014โ DaasYochid โParticipantYou really need to do a better job being dan l’kaf z’chus. Probably Mmarchette has a non Jewish co-worker who tried both.
๐
February 17, 2019 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1681016HeargodParticipantJoseph. Be dun lecaf zechus and not accuse falsely.
The person probably was looking to loose weight and started searching for yogurt low in sugar, at which point they realized that all the low sugar yogurts where not chuluv Stam.
This is not to mention that making someone feel bad for following the ruling of Rav Moshe Feinstein that chuluv Stam is fine, is also something one should not judge let alone make the accused feel bad aboutFebruary 17, 2019 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #1681033JosephParticipantI guess humor is dead.
February 17, 2019 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1681036โ DaasYochid โParticipantHumor? I thought you were here for kiruv.
February 17, 2019 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #1681034GadolhadorahParticipantMost of the more contemporary psaks from leading rabbonim against using dairy products made from cholov stam take the opposite position from Reb Mosheโs heter. Reb Moshe was mattir cholov stam based on dairy processing plants being inspected by the government, and government inspection of dairy farms was a non-issue due to the concept of โbo lโyad Yisroelโ. Under the current food safety rules, however, government inspections are primarily focused on dairy farms , and dairy plant inspection is no longer central for the heter.
February 17, 2019 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #1681042knaidlachParticipantR’ Moishe’s hetter was limited to a specific situation only. unfortunately, it’s being used as a regular hetter. especially when its so easy to get cholov Yisroel.
February 17, 2019 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1681056HeargodParticipantmr. gadolhador. I don’t understand, doesn’t the o u inspect the plant? if the gov inspects the farm and the o u inspects the food plant and make sure the plant is using chuluv stam milk doesn’t that make the finished product kosher. ak+bk = kosher
now u can hold by your “contemporary rabbi” but u cant judge others for holding by Rav Moshe Feinstein.February 17, 2019 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1681064These days American Yiden travel on vacation or business to various places and use the cholov akum there – places like the Caribbean Islands, Asia, cruise ships etc where there is NO government inspection at all. The michshal is tremendous! Many are used to drinling cholov akum and continue doing so without realizing the grave issur – and there is no heter outside of America (including South America or Central America)! For this reason alone one should be medayek on cholov Yisroel, something that our forefathers were mosser nefesh for in the Old Country.
February 17, 2019 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1681069HeargodParticipantkneidlach. please show your source that Rav Moshe limited his “hetter”
February 17, 2019 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1681075funnyboneParticipantKnaidlach: for which specific situation was R Moshes psak?
February 17, 2019 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1681076funnyboneParticipantJoseph: is it possible that you murdered humor?
February 17, 2019 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1681077sifsei chachamimParticipantReb Moshe clearly wrote that in a place where cholov yisrael is available you should not rely on his heter.
February 18, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1681313MmarchetteParticipantInteresting. Thank you for this factual reply.
February 18, 2019 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1681408knaidlachParticipantheargod
it seems that you didnt see the tshuva of R’ moishe permitting cholov stam but you are not asking anyone for a source as to where that teshuva can be found. and you are OK to rely on what you heard from someone that heard from someone etc. but for the limitation on the hetter you need a source…..
I dont have IGROS MOSHE next to me now.February 18, 2019 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1681413knaidlachParticipantgedoilei yisroel would advise people that complained haveing sfaikos in emunah, to keep cholov yisroel
February 18, 2019 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #1681433funnyboneParticipantKnaidlach: gedolei yisroel advised not to accept sttements in their name.
February 18, 2019 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1681466knaidlachParticipantso can someone here find the teshuva of R’ Moshe where He discusses cholov yisroel and posted here?
February 18, 2019 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1681486iacisrmmaParticipantREb. G. dont know if our fore fathers were “moser nefesh” when it was relativelyy easy for one to walk to his neighbors farm to milk the cow as I heard from my neighbor who was born in a polish shtetl and survived the death camps.In fact , the pri megadim paskens that if the town does not raise non kosher animals one can trust all the milk.
February 18, 2019 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #1681506No one would consider using goyish wine – even if one had a heter. Yet cholov akum is taken lightly in America. I was told by my grandparents that in Old Country they were
moser nefesh
for cholov yisroel.lacis asks how difficult was it to walk over to a neighbors farm – I don
t know, I wasn
t there, but that is what I was told…maybe the goyish neighbor wasnt too happy to have a Yid stand over him when he milked the cow...I don
t know, but that is the mesorah I was told.We live in an age of heteri – seeking a heter for anything that makes our lives easier. Imagine the mesirus nefesh of not having a Haagen Daaz icecream which isn
t cholov yisoel! Or to pass up those Christie
s Oreo cookies because we are Yidden that dont look for heterim - mamash mesiras nefesh! I won
t even mention giving up on the Hershy chocolate – that would be a sin.February 18, 2019 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1681574๐RebYidd23ParticipantRebbitzen, use apostrophes, not backticks.
February 18, 2019 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1681580โ DaasYochid โParticipantNo one would consider using goyish wine โ even if one had a heter.
Anyone who drinks wine served by a non Jewish waiter is relying on a heter.
February 18, 2019 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1681586ModernMisnagedParticipant@Gadolhadorah, FYI, The OU has an article on this question, in which Rav Belsky CLEARLY PASKENS that the heter still applies today! if you want to see it for yourself, it’s called: Rav Moshe’s heter of cholov stam revisited.
February 18, 2019 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1681587funnyboneParticipantSifsei chachomim: did you see that yourself or is it hearsay?
February 18, 2019 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #1681612funnyboneParticipantWhatโs the heter for wine from a non Jew?
R Moshe felt that chalav company, as he called it isnโt chalav Akum. Do not call that relying on a heter.February 18, 2019 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1681635โ DaasYochid โParticipantDo not call that relying on a heter.
Why not?
February 18, 2019 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1681634โ DaasYochid โParticipantWhatโs the heter for wine from a non Jew?
If it’s flash pasteurized, many poskim consider it mevushal, so you can drink it even if poured by a non Jewish.
February 18, 2019 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #1681630TalmidchochomParticipantThat is how Frum uneducated people make parnassah. Come up with cholov Yisroel and tell people that ou and ok certified milk is not good enough. What a bunch of malarkey. The US regulatory system does not allow for foreign matter in dairy milk.
February 18, 2019 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1681607“Anyone who drinks wine served by a non Jewish waiter is relying on a heter.”
Because some readers “pasken” based on the gedolim of the CR, a quick review of hilchos stam yainom:
The “heter” (or issur) is Yoreh Deah 124 which rules that if a non-Jew merely touched the bottle of wine, the wine is permissible. However, if the non-Jew touched the wine itself, with his hands or even his feet, all of the wine is prohibited.
If the non-Jew โshookโ (shichshuch) the wine, in the times of the Talmud, โshichshuchโ was considered to be an act of pagan worship. Therefore, even if the non-Jew does not lift the bottle, if he shakes it, the wine is prohibited. Similarly, if he pours the wine into a decanter, or spins the bottle with a stick, that is also considered to be a form of shichshuch and the wine is prohibited.
The non-Jew gently moves the wine to put something else in its place. He rules, based upon the Beit Yosef, that if this happens in front of a Jew, this is considered to be โnianua kezatโ and the wine is permissible.
When a non-Jew actually pours the wine. If he pours the wine into a cup, he may not drink or even derive benefit from the wine. Also, even the wine which remains in the bottle is prohibited, due to the concept of โnizok.โ According to this rule, an uninterrupted flow of wine (nizok) from the cup to the bottle prohibits the wine left in the bottle.
The same would apply to wine which was poured by a Jewish person who publically violates the Shabbat, many poskim prohibit wine which was poured by a mechalel Shabbas bโfarhesia.
These are serious and complex halachos – one cannot pasken based on “Sevoras HaBeten” (his own gut instinct) or “Regesh HaLev”.
February 18, 2019 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #1681642โ DaasYochid โParticipantCome up with cholov Yisroel and tell people that ou and ok certified milk is not good enough. What a bunch of malarkey. The US regulatory system does not allow for foreign matter in dairy milk.
You seem to be unaware of the fact that many poskim disagreed with R Moshe’s heter, and that even he said it’s better not to rely on it (and didn’t personally rely on it).
February 18, 2019 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1681652ModernMisnagedParticipant@bk613, cholov stam is not a Modern Orthodox Thing, plenty of litvishe people eat it.
February 18, 2019 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1681653โ DaasYochid โParticipantRebbetzin, when you copied from Daily Halacha, you left some parts out, making some sentences incomprehensible.
February 18, 2019 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1681663Sechel HaYasharParticipantThere are several Tshuvos where R’ Moshe Z”L restricts the usage of Chalav Hacompanies (as he called it) to times and places where Chalav Yisrael isn’t available. Recently, a such a letter a revealed for the first time. I’d upload it if I could, but I don’t know how to. It’s a handwritten letter in R Moshes own writing to a certain Reb Yitzchak Hoffman, who was shocked to see the Maimonodes Hospital serving Chalav Akum. When he asked them how they can do such a thing, he was told R Moshe allows it. So he wrote to R Moshe, and this is what R Moshe answered:
(It’s handwritten, and not easy to decipher, any mistakes are mine.)
ื’ ืืจืืฉืื ืชืฉื”ื
ืืืืจ ืืื ืืงืืืคืื ืืืก ืืฃ ืฉืืฉ ืืขืืื ืืืงื (….) ืฉืืื ืจืง ืืืงืื ืฉืืืื ืืื ืืฉืจืื ืฉืืื ืชืืช ืืฉืืืช ืจืื ืื ืืจืื ื’ ืืื ืืืงืื ืฉืืืื ืืื ืืฉืจืื ืฉืืื ืืืฉืืื ืืืืืื ืื ืขื ืื ื ืืื ืฆืจืื ืืืืืืจ ืื”ืฉ ืืื ืฉืืืชืืื ื ืืืจืื ืืืืื ืจืง ืืืื ืืฉืจืื ืฉืืืฉืืื ืฉืฆืจืืืื (…..) ืื ืฉืืฉืฉ ืขื ืื (ื ืืืจืื?), ืืืืืื ืื ืืืืกืคืืืขืืขืจ (……….) ืืืืืื ืืฉืจ ืฉืืฉ ืืื ืืชืงื ืื ืฉืืคืฉืจ ืืื ืืื ืืืฉืื ืืืืื ืืื ืืืฉืืื ืื ืืคื ื ืื ืืืจืง ืืืื ืืื ืฉืขืช ืืืืง.
ืืืื ืืคืืืช ืืฉืืื ืืืืื ืืื ืฉืืืฉืืื ืืืื ืฉื ืืืจืื ืืื ืืืชืืื ืืื ืืืฉื ืืืชื ื”ื ืฉืืืืื ืฉื (ืฉืื?) ืื ืฉื ืืืจืื ืฉืื ืืืืื.
ื ืืื (ืืชืืืชื)February 18, 2019 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #1681660Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant“If itโs flash pasteurized, many poskim consider it mevushal, so you can drink it even if poured by a non Jewish.”
You’re original statement was unconditional, implying that every case of mevushal wine is a heter.
Also, I’m not sure it’s a good mashal anyway. Reb Moshe never claimed chalav stam is literally chalav Yisroel, whereas in this case the shittah is that it is 100% mevushal (I thought).
February 18, 2019 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1681661TalmidchochomParticipantTo those of you that have an issue with Rav Mosheโs heter, the non cholov Yisroel milks back then weโre not yet ou certified. Hence, he recommended Chalav Yisroel, if feasible and available.
Today however, ou certified milk is plentiful and this hashgacha is as good or better than cholov Yisroel.
February 18, 2019 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1681662Daas Yo – the same halochos are on the cRc website too.
February 18, 2019 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #1681673โ DaasYochid โParticipantYouโre original statement was unconditional, implying that every case of mevushal wine is a heter.
I’m under the impression that almost all commercially “mevushal” wine is flash pasteurized.
February 18, 2019 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1681675โ DaasYochid โParticipantReb Moshe never claimed chalav stam is literally chalav Yisroel
He actually did. The heter is based on anan sahadi being the halachic equivalent of a Jew seeing the milking.
February 18, 2019 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1681676โ DaasYochid โParticipantTo those of you that have an issue with Rav Mosheโs heter, the non cholov Yisroel milks back then weโre not yet ou certified. Hence, he recommended Chalav Yisroel, if feasible and available.
Today however, ou certified milk is plentiful and this hashgacha is as good or better than cholov Yisroel.
That’s a total fabrication. Even the OU acknowledges the validity of the position to be makpid on CY.
February 18, 2019 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1681679Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant“Today however, ou certified milk is plentiful and this hashgacha is as good or better than cholov Yisroel.”
Lol. Freilichen Purim.
February 18, 2019 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1681680funnyboneParticipantI may be wrong, but I donโt think R Moshe ever said not to rely on his heter. Similarly, he didnโt say that he doesnโt rely on it. He did say that for himself he is machmir.
February 18, 2019 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1681681โ DaasYochid โParticipantFebruary 18, 2019 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1681685โ DaasYochid โParticipantI may be wrong, but I donโt think R Moshe ever said not to rely on his heter.
You are wrong. Rav Moshe writes that where CY is available, even at increased inconvenience and price (not significant), one should buy CY.
The heter is still valid, but he’s saying that where it’s not too difficult, one should not rely on it.
February 18, 2019 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #1681693funnyboneParticipantWho holds that flash pasteurized isnโt considered mevushal?
February 18, 2019 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1681703โ DaasYochid โParticipantWho holds that flash pasteurized isnโt considered mevushal?
Rav YS Elyashiv zt”l, Rav SZ Auerbach zt”l, Rav BZ Abba Shaul, zt”l.
February 19, 2019 1:31 am at 1:31 am #1681726jdbParticipantRav Moshe was not the only posek to be mattir chalav Stam in the US, and there is nothing wrong with someone paskening by Rav Moshe or their Rav who holds by chalav Stam.
Please spend more time focusing on what comes out of your mouth than what goes into others.
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